ALPA chest thumpers

[BluDevAv8r]

How do you know?

Don't you think some corporate puchase attorney has his act more together than some ALPO jack?

The aquisition gun has more to lose than some lakey hired by an organization that couldn't care less of a regional?

I suppose that this "corporate puchase attorney" would turn to the very first page of the Comair contract and look right at Section 1, Paragraph B.1 where he would see the following:

1. The Company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the Company (a “successorship transaction”) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement.

The language above is legally binding language and in plain English says that anyone who buys or acquires control of Comair will, as a condition of the transaction, recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent and the contract as negotiated (in other words, it can't just be "thrown out"). This language was written by an "ALPO jack lakey" (whatever that is) named Bill Roberts (Assistant Director of Representation for ALPA and the attorney who has worked with Comair for over 8 years). Bill has forgotten more about collective bargaining than you will ever know my friend.

It is clear that you and DX Rick need to learn a little about pilot contracts before you go spewing your rhetoric.

-Neal

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I suppose that this "corporate puchase attorney" would turn to the very first page of the Comair contract and look right at Section 1, Paragraph B.1 where he would see the following:

1. The Company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the Company (a “successorship transaction”) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement.

The language above is legally binding language and in plain English says that anyone who buys or acquires control of Comair will, as a condition of the transaction, recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent and the contract as negotiated (in other words, it can't just be "thrown out"). This language was written by an "ALPO jack lakey" (whatever that is) named Bill Roberts (Assistant Director of Representation for ALPA and the attorney who has worked with Comair for over 8 years). Bill has forgotten more about collective bargaining than you will ever know my friend.

It is clear that you and DX Rick need to learn a little about pilot contracts before you go spewing your rhetoric.

-Neal

How dare you bring reality into CFIT's anti-ALPA rant...

 

[DrewBlows]

We can easily represent ourselves at each airline, at half the cost.

This is 100% false. All Regionals are subsidized by Majors dues. That's fact, no matter what lies you make up, Regionals will always do better with ALPA than without. How else are you going to get a direct return on dues paid? It can't be done.

 

[Fred Rogers]

This is 100% false. All Regionals are subsidized by Majors dues. That's fact, no matter what lies you make up, Regionals will always do better with ALPA than without. How else are you going to get a direct return on dues paid? It can't be done.

It seems to me that everyone benifets with a big pot of shared money

 

[CopilotDoug]

I suppose that this "corporate puchase attorney" would turn to the very first page of the Comair contract and look right at Section 1, Paragraph B.1 where he would see the following:

1. The Company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the Company (a “successorship transaction”) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement.

The language above is legally binding language and in plain English says that anyone who buys or acquires control of Comair will, as a condition of the transaction, recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent and the contract as negotiated (in other words, it can't just be "thrown out"). This language was written by an "ALPO jack lakey" (whatever that is) named Bill Roberts (Assistant Director of Representation for ALPA and the attorney who has worked with Comair for over 8 years). Bill has forgotten more about collective bargaining than you will ever know my friend. -Neal

Neal,

How many times have legally binding ALPA contracts been Used and Abused to the benefit of management? As the old addage goes, rules (contracts) are made to be broken. Don't think for one second there aren't legal loop holes around these clauses, you pay a sleezy attorney enough and he'll dig up some for you.

As far as Regionals always doing better with ALPA, as a "fact"...well, you and I both know that's a matter of opinion. But having seen their system work up close, it's not a system you'd want to test out with your job on the line. There's a fair percentage of guys out there who do lose their jobs, and it gets worse at the regionals. To paraphrase PCL128, the general perception of ALPA's power is unrealistic.

The days of the Unions are drawing closed, Big Business has been working with government to reduce the muscle of Unions. ALPA doesn't represent the pilot's main interest these days...Pay. Schedule with safety...Uhhh...sorry, we already have large entities like the FAA and the NTSB working on safety improvement programs (Like moving maps of airport diagrams). ALPA has been reduced to all talk...just ask Capt. "Takin' it Back" Prater. We are going to pattern bargain our pay back. Well, good luck with that, but don't get your hopes up. I agree with Merlin, you can still have an in house Union with lower dues than ALPA. You might say it would be ineffective, but then you're describing present day ALPA.

____________________________________
Everybody knows the Teamsters would stomp a mudhole in ALPA's a$$ any day of the week.

 

[Mr Wu]

Doug, you crack me up. If management is doing all you say with a contract in place, what would they be doing with no contracts in place? You talk like management becomes confrontational the minute that a contract is signed, that everything was rosy before the union talk began. This is not the case. Union talk began for a reason and it was not because management decided all of a sudden to just give their employees the benefits that they have. All that you take for granted was negotiated by collective bargaining - paid holidays, vacation, overrides, rigs, commuter clauses, etc. Doubt if there is a company out there that just decided to give that stuff to their employees without the threat of a union.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Doug, you crack me up. If management is doing all you say with a contract in place, what would they be doing with no contracts in place? You talk like management becomes confrontational the minute that a contract is signed, that everything was rosy before the union talk began. This is not the case. Union talk began for a reason and it was not because management decided all of a sudden to just give their employees the benefits that they have. All that you take for granted was negotiated by collective bargaining - paid holidays, vacation, overrides, rigs, commuter clauses, etc. Doubt if there is a company out there that just decided to give that stuff to their employees without the threat of a union.

Excellent post! At least someone "gets it".

 

[acaTerry]

Doubt if there is a company out there that just decided to give that stuff to their employees without the threat of a union.

A few have in the past, but keep in mind that without union representation, that all those nice things could disappear in a heartbeat and there'd be NOTHING anyone could do about it.
The trouble really began when the days of "lower" employees working their way up to management ended, and the days of pure-blooded management types came in from OUTSIDE and started to run things.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

How many times have legally binding ALPA contracts been Used and Abused to the benefit of management? As the old addage goes, rules (contracts) are made to be broken. Don't think for one second there aren't legal loop holes around these clauses, you pay a sleezy attorney enough and he'll dig up some for you.

Well that can be said for any kind of legally binding contract and that is why we have courts, lawyers, judges, etc. But the language you are seeing above is tight and legally enforceable and tested over time. If you want to argue the contrary, I challenge you to find me a case after 1983-1985 where an entity has acquired or obtained control of an ALPA carrier and then subsequently thrown the contract out the window, effectively making its employees "at will."

As far as Regionals always doing better with ALPA, as a "fact"...well, you and I both know that's a matter of opinion. But having seen their system work up close, it's not a system you'd want to test out with your job on the line. There's a fair percentage of guys out there who do lose their jobs, and it gets worse at the regionals. To paraphrase PCL128, the general perception of ALPA's power is unrealistic.

Having been the chairman of XJT's NC during the Contract '04 negotiations, I think I am fairly well qualified to speak on ALPA's dedication to regionals (or lack thereof in your opinion). We received an incredible amount of attention and resources from ALPA National throughout our entire process. Our principal attorney was Bruce York, who for half of our process was the Assistant Director of Representation and the second half was the Director of Representation. We then were also assisted by Bill Roberts, who is another Assistant Director. Lastly, we had a third local ALPA attorney present. We also had the usual other resources such as E&FA, R&I, Communications, Legal, etc. It is safe to say that XJT's contract is pretty good as are the working conditions at XJT. ALPA isn't perfect but this whole "ALPA hates the regionals" mentality is quite suspect, at least from my viewpoint, which includes 4 years of working for the XJT MEC.

Everybody knows the Teamsters would stomp a mudhole in ALPA's a$$ any day of the week.

I guess that is a matter of opinion but knowing what I know about the Teamsters and ALPA, I will stick with ALPA, thanks.

-Neal

 

[CopilotDoug]

It is safe to say that XJT's contract is pretty good as are the working conditions at XJT. ALPA isn't perfect but this whole "ALPA hates the regionals" mentality is quite suspect, at least from my viewpoint, which includes 4 years of working for the XJT MEC.
-Neal

Where does this leave an airline like Mesa? Do they not have access to the same ALPA resources? Why the disparity in the contracts?

And I am not implying that ALPA has any maliscious intent towards any of the regionals.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Where does this leave an airline like Mesa? Do they not have access to the same ALPA resources? Why the disparity in the contracts?

And I am not implying that ALPA has any maliscious intent towards any of the regionals.

Mesa folks correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Mesa had to sell their souls to get Freedom brought under the contract. This is why their current agreement sucks.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The quality of the contract is decided between management and their pilot group. In effect, you end up having the Mesa Pilot Union...the Pinnacle Pilot Union...The ExpressJet Pilot Union, etc. Each airline is different, and has it's own set of Unique circumstances. To imply that ALPA will somehow level the playing field because they have a pool of resources to draw from is misleading. The Union will get what management is willing to give, regardless of ALPA "representation" or not. Save your money and invest in your own airline union instead of putting gas in Prater's Union Cadillac.

Wu...go back a few pages, you'll see I am pro-union. Just realistic.

 

[saabservant]

I see two reasons why ALPA is powerless-
1. It is not, and does not function like a trade union. It does not control access to the profession, and does not act on behalf of all the members. It is only a loose association of locals, that negotiate on their own behalf with management teams that know how to isolate and play them off each other.
A lack of organizational discipline...And, it is controlled by a small number of senior pilots at large carriers,(by roll call vote) who have no interest in protecting jobs across the industry, as long as their own pay and pensions are looked after.
Outsourcing is not only ok'd but is recommended...

2. The executive and judicial branches are now hostile to us, rejecting our rights to withold services, and not allowing negotiations to come to a conclusion (the mediation board- bush controlled).

The only solution, as I see it, is to UNIFY all pilot groups under one set of standards, and to confront government and management with our grievances.
AND, to finally ignore the lawyers and start taking some real risks.
With the contingency fund, and our own careers and even our liberty.
I hear there is a national strike committee being formed within ALPA. Let's hope Mr. Prater has some real plans for them.
All it takes is a little leadership, as usual.

Without that, I'd advise pilots to steer clear of ALPA, or airline flying, and to stop dreaming that they will be the few who will come out ahead, so it does'nt matter what else happens...

 

[DrewBlows]

As far as Regionals always doing better with ALPA, as a "fact"...well, you and I both know that's a matter of opinion.

No it's not. Regional airlines receive more money and resources from ALPA National than they pay into the system, therefore they do better with ALPA than without (unless you know of some magical way to turn a certain amount of money into a greater amount of money).

Save your money and invest in your own airline union instead of putting gas in Prater's Union Cadillac.

If your sole reason for not belonging to ALPA is so your dues money doesn't pass though ALPA National's hands, this would be a good idea. However if you want the resources that ALPA National provides you would have to pay dues that far exceed the 1.95% that ALPA members pay. This doesn't seem like a very good way to save money to me.

 

[ohplease!]

No it's not. Regional airlines receive more money and resources from ALPA National than they pay into the system.

BS! Unbelievable BS!

 

[FDJ2]

I do see a trend...over the past 30 years I see ALPA membership shrinking.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

BS! Unbelievable BS!

Do you have any other convincing thoughts?

 

[ohplease!]

Do you have any other convincing thoughts?

How about this one: You alpa freaks are nuts. It scares the he!! outta' me that such a mentally deranged/challenged person could be allowed to be in command of a kite, much less an aircraft with innocent passengers on it.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Do you have any other convincing thoughts?

Hold on...he's getting some in a mamagement meeting right now!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Do you have any other convincing thoughts?

Or maybe having a "meeting of the minds" with Newwoman, CFIT, and Theo?