Pinnacle in trouble!

[PeanuckleCRJ]

3 years ago no regional would even talk to anyone with less than 3000 hours and 121 experience.

Funny how things work out. Wonder what will come of the majors once all the furloughs are called?

They talked to me 3 years ago. I had 1700/300 and no 121. Still a far cry from 300 hours and a pft program...

 

[Fly4hire]

NWA management is predicting at the current rate of attrition 9E may be out of business by the end of this year. Time to call HR and tell them you'll work for no less than $100K, see how desperate they really are.

And their contingency response to keep the feed coming if 9E has a total meltdown is ???? Let me guess - a waiver to get a CRJ type with less than ATP mins? SJS rules!

While you are at it, are they at all concerned over the possible impact of a major accident, which is increasing in probability as they redline the operation with inexperienced crews? They should be.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

And their contingency response to keep the feed coming if 9E has a total meltdown is ???? Let me guess - a waiver to get a CRJ type with less than ATP mins? SJS rules!

While you are at it, are they at all concerned over the possible impact of a major accident, which is increasing in probability as they redline the operation with inexperienced crews? They should be.

Even if there was a plan, you couldn't keep the captains from leaving to a job that will always be better than what they left. The regionals only work when mainline is NOT hiring. I would say the best solution at this point would be to offer a better contract to 9E to curb attrition, that will probably fail. The next logical step will have to be to operate the RJ's at the mainline. Then increase the pay enough where mainline FO's would go to RJ captain. The natural progression of this career is all screwed up. It used to be FO to captain when you got hired at a company, now it's all over the map. I'm amazed we haven't seen more accidents.

With the cost of initial training so high now, I can't imagine anyone could be a pilot without someone else paying for it. I went down to the local FBO this week, a new 172 is renting for just shy of $200 an hr w/instructor.

 

[TinGoose1]

are they at all concerned over the possible impact of a major accident, which is increasing in probability as they redline the operation with inexperienced crews? They should be.

No more than they ever have. Just a matter of time.

 

[Fly4hire]

The next logical step will have to be to operate the RJ's at the mainline. Then increase the pay enough where mainline FO's would go to RJ captain. The natural progression of this career is all screwed up. It used to be FO to captain when you got hired at a company, now it's all over the map.

Interesting you mention that because there is a provision in the new NW contract and LOA that allows them to fly 51-76 seat acft at the mainline, but would have to pay published 77-110 seat rates. Unlikely, but could be done under terms of existing contract.

 

[XJohXJ]

That is interesting, as even post BK, NWA would not have any trouble hiring, whatsoever. The regionals, however, are shoving that knife into the empty mayo jar, trying to scrape the sides. Maybe flying will start shifting back to the mainlines. Now, that would be good news for everyone.

 

[NuGuy]

Even if there was a plan, you couldn't keep the captains from leaving to a job that will always be better than what they left. The regionals only work when mainline is NOT hiring. I would say the best solution at this point would be to offer a better contract to 9E to curb attrition, that will probably fail. The next logical step will have to be to operate the RJ's at the mainline. Then increase the pay enough where mainline FO's would go to RJ captain. The natural progression of this career is all screwed up. It used to be FO to captain when you got hired at a company, now it's all over the map. I'm amazed we haven't seen more accidents.

With the cost of initial training so high now, I can't imagine anyone could be a pilot without someone else paying for it. I went down to the local FBO this week, a new 172 is renting for just shy of $200 an hr w/instructor.

Heyas YPF,

For once we agree.

There has been some "noise" lately about running small RJs at the mainline, and ALPAs grievance regarding the new XJ jets is still pending.

Now in any typical business, if you have problems in your supply chain, you move to shore it up by either finding a better vendor, working with the vendor you have to improve, or moving the supply chain in-house.

But in this case, none of these will happen because there really are no better vendors (all regionals are mostly the same from that standpoint). NWA BOUGHT Express (aka PCL) to improve the product, and that didn't really help either other than being able to fire the people running the place.

Lastly NWA will move to in-house feed when hell freezes solid. Managament's whole goal has been to outsource every last item and become a virtual airline.

Nu

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Maybe flying will start shifting back to the mainlines. Now, that would be good news for everyone.

There should have never been anything but. To me, the concept of an airline within an airline and airline pilots been branded as separate classes always made as much sense as Braille on a drive through teller machine. There shouldn't have been ANY outsourcing of any kind, NEVER. If there is a kite in the sky with NWA colors on it (Or any brand for that matter) there should be a NWA seniority pilot at the end of the string, simple as that.

The problems with the regional not finding adequate personnel is not only a matter of money, because lets be frank here. Starting at any mainline carrier in this country the pay sucks! and I put it mildly. The way I see it is that people would endure the hardship of low pay and bad schedules if they saw a career progression in their future. If lets say, a young person that would be hired within the NWA system as an F/O on the Saab, can see that as time progresses he can become Captain on the Saab and from there Captain on the CRJ-200 and CRJ-900 and from there F/O on the DC-9 and end his career after 30 years of service within THE SAME CORPORATE STRUCTURE, as a Captain on the 74 or the 87. This same corporate structure would be swampt with resumes to fly for the same $20 bucks an hour. Why? It would be a CAREER at that point not just another job or a means to an end. I'm sure that they would be able to keep a lower cost structure flying the smaller A/C's as well as the flexibility of not dealing with SCOPE while placing the right size A/C without limitations on the right size market.
But since I'm a Dumb Pilot, I definitely don't understand the big picture and ALPA's and management's Kool aid taste exactly the same. They both taste like $hit

Done ranting

 

[Flyprdu]

NWA management is predicting at the current rate of attrition 9E may be out of business by the end of this year. Time to call HR and tell them you'll work for no less than $100K, see how desperate they really are.

A 9E Out of Business thread is about as realistic as announcing that 9E has 30 firm orders for 787s.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

As I understand the NWA contract, which I interpret differently than other people(management background), is NWA can operate the jets at mainline using mainline pilots with mainline seniority that are contractually separated from pilots whom are scope protected. I.E. when the time comes the bottom list is subject to a different type of bargaining that is subject to the RFP. In other words the narrowbody fleet will over the next ten years, be turned into a more leveraged contract in favor of management.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

A 9E Out of Business thread is about as realistic as announcing that 9E has 30 firm orders for 787s.

"May be out of business if something isn't done about it"

 

[Fly4hire]

As I understand the NWA contract, which I interpret differently than other people(management background), is NWA can operate the jets at mainline using mainline pilots with mainline seniority that are contractually separated from pilots whom are scope protected.

I think you are incorrect to put it mildly, but I'll give you the chance to quote chapter and verse to support that statement.

 

[DoinTime]

NWA BOUGHT Express (aka PCL) to improve the product, and that didn't really help either other than being able to fire the people running the place.

Didn't really help? Do you have any idea what this place was like in 1997?

 

[405]

.....

 

[n32jk]

All you need is a pulse.....and an ATP written.

The pulse is optional if you can fake being alive, you are in.

 

[CRJ_Driver]

The thing is....

I think we're on a road leading to the point you made, but there's a long stretch of road ahead

There should have never been anything but. To me, the concept of an airline within an airline and airline pilots been branded as separate classes always made as much sense as Braille on a drive through teller machine. There shouldn't have been ANY outsourcing of any kind, NEVER. If there is a kite in the sky with NWA colors on it (Or any brand for that matter) there should be a NWA seniority pilot at the end of the string, simple as that.

The problems with the regional not finding adequate personnel is not only a matter of money, because lets be frank here. Starting at any mainline carrier in this country the pay sucks! and I put it mildly. The way I see it is that people would endure the hardship of low pay and bad schedules if they saw a career progression in their future. If lets say, a young person that would be hired within the NWA system as an F/O on the Saab, can see that as time progresses he can become Captain on the Saab and from there Captain on the CRJ-200 and CRJ-900 and from there F/O on the DC-9 and end his career after 30 years of service within THE SAME CORPORATE STRUCTURE, as a Captain on the 74 or the 87. This same corporate structure would be swampt with resumes to fly for the same $20 bucks an hour. Why? It would be a CAREER at that point not just another job or a means to an end. I'm sure that they would be able to keep a lower cost structure flying the smaller A/C's as well as the flexibility of not dealing with SCOPE while placing the right size A/C without limitations on the right size market.
But since I'm a Dumb Pilot, I definitely don't understand the big picture and ALPA's and management's Kool aid taste exactly the same. They both taste like $hit

Done ranting

 

[CopilotDoug]

Time to call HR and tell them you'll work for no less than $100K, see how desperate they really are.

I've read this story before...isn't this were ALPA steps in to save the day?

ALPA: Don't worry management, we'll take the paycuts to keep the company going!
Management: Uhhh...we didn't ask for paycuts yet
ALPA: Sorry, kneejerk reaction
Management: But now that we're talking about paycuts...
ALPA: I'll go grab the KY!

Aaaahahahahaha, ALPA sucks

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've read this story before...isn't this were ALPA steps in to save the day?

ALPA: Don't worry management, we'll take the paycuts to keep the company going!
Management: Uhhh...we didn't ask for paycuts yet
ALPA: Sorry, kneejerk reaction
Management: But now that we're talking about paycuts...
ALPA: I'll go grab the KY!

Aaaahahahahaha, ALPA sucks

Unions are artificial buffers for the market... sometimes the market is more convincing.....

 

[Lear70]

Wonder if the loss of the bid for DL CRJ-900's to Mesa was, in part, because of the poor completion performance in the last month or two?

I'm sitting in DAY and noticed the PCL sign-in sheet had CXLD by both overnight flights (they had just gotten the call on the late one when we were signing in).

Not good.

Sent a letter last week just for giggles to senior management suggesting a part-time recall of CA's who have left in the last 2 years (and qualify for the short recurrent course) on a short-term basis (6 months or less) with the ability to pick up whatever open time they want at their previous longevity with Junior Assignment rates (would be cheaper than canceling a flight).

I'm not expecting (nor have I received) a response, and of course, a LOA would be required due to the contract limits on non-seniority list pilots or on filling of vacancies), but it would be a short-term stop gap measure while they get their staffing together and would save the cancellations that have been ongoing and will continue for several more months until they catch up.

Thought it would be amusing just to see if anyone responded to my email.

Won't be holding my breath...

 

[XJohXJ]

Ah yes, the everlasting pilot dream. To work for an airline on Your Own Terms. I guess that's another sign of how truly bad so many regional contracts are. (Yup, XJ's contract included, too, especially if you're an FO!)

 

[bertengineer]

Wonder if the loss of the bid for DL CRJ-900's to Mesa was, in part, because of the poor completion performance in the last month or two?

I'm sitting in DAY and noticed the PCL sign-in sheet had CXLD by both overnight flights (they had just gotten the call on the late one when we were signing in).

Not good.

Sent a letter last week just for giggles to senior management suggesting a part-time recall of CA's who have left in the last 2 years (and qualify for the short recurrent course) on a short-term basis (6 months or less) with the ability to pick up whatever open time they want at their previous longevity with Junior Assignment rates (would be cheaper than canceling a flight).

I'm not expecting (nor have I received) a response, and of course, a LOA would be required due to the contract limits on non-seniority list pilots or on filling of vacancies), but it would be a short-term stop gap measure while they get their staffing together and would save the cancellations that have been ongoing and will continue for several more months until they catch up.

Thought it would be amusing just to see if anyone responded to my email.

Won't be holding my breath...

Are things not going good at AirTran that you want to come back here? That is just what I want, you guys that left to fly as FO's for more money at other carriers to come back and further restrict the upgrade vacancies!
I think management is still laughing at the letter.

 

[Lear70]

Are things not going good at AirTran that you want to come back here?

Absolutely not, things are great! Just don't like $46 an hour and would rather make $100+ an hour at 6th year CRJ CA Junior Assignment rates.

That is just what I want, you guys that left to fly as FO's for more money at other carriers to come back and further restrict the upgrade vacancies!

OK, why don't you go back and read what I wrote again. Slowly this time so you get all of it.

I specifically said it would be a part-time, short-term arrangement TO ALLOW PCL MANAGEMENT THE TIME TO CATCH UP WITH STAFFING.

In other words, the vacancies wouldn't stop or slow (that would be a requirement of the LOA), as it would be a short-term deal and wouldn't fix the long-term problem - only further vacancies can do that.

I've been through every possible variation the company has been able to try to lower staffing, wouldn't attempt it if it would hurt anyone's upgrade (I already had this discussion with one of the MEC Chairs when I sent the letter - you guys should know by now I'm about as pro-pilot rights as it gets).

I think management is still laughing at the letter.

I was laughing when I wrote it. I wasn't really expecting anyone to take it seriously and, if they did, it would be highly lucrative for the guys who picked up a few trips a month, wouldn't hurt anyone's upgrade, and would benefit the company by lowering the CXL rate.

Like I said, don't get all wound up about it or start any weird rumors there about it. Management will never go for it, the Association would have to approve it (and they likely wouldn't), and each of us flying elsewhere would have to get approval to do it from our companies (just as difficult).

It was more of a ha-ha funny and "if you paid these kind of rates, people wouldn't leave" kind of deal.

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

[20sx]

You made me spit my food out that was so funny!!

B-J-J Fighter vbmenu_register("postmenu_1267741", true);
She Laughed at my Check



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Not a joke at all. I was finger blasting my girlfriend on the couch when they called. I answered the call and told them I was a few months away from making $35 plus as a second yr FO flying the same airplane and told them I would consider if they paid the same and offered a quicker upgrade. I was a little tipsy and all I heard after that was the phone being hung up. I got right back to work on the important stuff.

 

[DeucesWild]

Sent a letter last week just for giggles to senior management suggesting a part-time recall of CA's who have left in the last 2 years (and qualify for the short recurrent course) on a short-term basis (6 months or less) with the ability to pick up whatever open time they want at their previous longevity with Junior Assignment rates (would be cheaper than canceling a flight).

I knew you actually loved working at Pinnacle!! And I admire the loyalty.... wanting to go back and HELP them out of a bind!

 

[bertengineer]

Like I said, don't get all wound up about it or start any weird rumors there about it. Management will never go for it, the Association would have to approve it (and they likely wouldn't), and each of us flying elsewhere would have to get approval to do it from our companies (just as difficult).

It was more of a ha-ha funny and "if you paid these kind of rates, people wouldn't leave" kind of deal.

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

I was just messing with you man! Hope all is well at AT!

 

[Lear70]

I knew you actually loved working at Pinnacle!! And I admire the loyalty.... wanting to go back and HELP them out of a bind!

Sure. That's my plan. That's what I intended all along. Just want to help out!

Seriously, I do miss flying with a lot of the folks there. Had a GREAT time with the crews at PCL. Don't miss the contract abuse, crappy trips, and crappy days off, but my fellow coworkers made it a livable place to hang my hat for a while.

I was just messing with you man! Hope all is well at AT!

Oh it is, thanks. Now if we could just get a contract to raise those F/O rates and lower that d*mn $400 a month insurance rate...

Thought I had offended you or something...

I do that on here from time to time. Kind of fun to stir the pot though.

 

[Rook]

Thought I had offended you or something...

Offend? On Finfo?

 

[IrishjbPilot]

Lear, you suck.....Always finding something to complain about. Geez man, go back to PCL....seems like you miss it sooo much.

ok, did I offend

 

[bertengineer]

Lear, you suck.....Always finding something to complain about. Geez man, go back to PCL....seems like you miss it sooo much.

ok, did I offend

RELAX! His heart is in the right place, and he should have stayed and been a part of the contract negotiations. His experience level far exceeds the amount of hours and aircraft that you have flown. I have flown with him and understand where he is coming from.


You sir..are a tool!

 

[Lear70]

Lear, you suck.....Always finding something to complain about. Geez man, go back to PCL....seems like you miss it sooo much.

ok, did I offend

Hey Irish, just because St Paddy's day is tomorrow doesn't give you a free pass to bash...

Go drink some beer, you'll feel better about it.

Thanks, Bert. I would never have been on the NC as much as that and Grievance were the two committees I had the most interest in. I simply stepped on too many toes with my hard-line approach to things and refusal to "tow the party line" according to WG.

That's OK, I was SO stressed out when I was there... I needed a break, and this has been great, even with the pay cut. I JUST got my PCL W-2 in last night and did my taxes; I took a $30,000 pay cut over last year - OUCH!

Sorry, had to complain to live up to Irish's assessment.