airplane off runway in CLE

[blott]

it's flight visibility when landing.... (thats why you say you could see the approach lights-and the runway, in situations like this) only cat 1 @ S5...

 

[ERJFO]

ATIS means nothing if the controller gives something different. If you are on final and ATIS say vis is 1/4 mile or 1400 RVR, then ATC comes on and says that vis is up to 1/2 or 1800, then you use what ATC says. These guys probably got an update from the tower on the vis while on approach.

Alot of times when checking in with approach they will tell you (for example) "XXXX Roger, Expect ILS 28, Runway 28 RVR is more than 5000" when the ATIS is calling 1/4 SM and 100 VV. In CLE I've had tower tell me they were getting 1000 RVR and then better than 5000 in the span of 45 secconds.

it's flight visibility when landing.... (thats why you say you could see the approach lights-and the runway, in situations like this) only cat 1 @ S5...

You need the min vis to accept the approach clearance and then to continue past the FAF. After the FAF your statement is 100% correct.

 

[ReverseSensing]

have not heard the "Race to the Bottom" in a while. Has it been won?

Only in the sense that the finish line has been reached.

 

[buxflyr]

Classic dorks showing off their knowledge of an equation that the crew should have been working on Short final or possibly even the flare. This is not rocket science. there are charts for everything....can you pass me your multiplication tables captain?

Good call. Next F.O.M. revision includes TI-86 calculator or higher model carried by all pilots when on the flight deck. Its not a matter of calculations and minuscule energy management squared by the root of Vapp b.s. I am sure these guys had done a good job until the time where the most critical decision needs to be made. Do we finish this approach and land....or do we not like the situation, and go around. Thats the only calculation that should be done on short final.

 

[RP170]

1/4 mile vis? Does anyone have any charts handy? What are the mins to shoot the approach? 6000 ft is kind of short to be a CAT 2/3 runway. Also, does the 170 have autobrakes/autoland? Just wondering.

Autobrakes: optional (I don't believe we have anything that is an "option" on the 170)

Autoland: I'm sure the aircraft could be certified to do it (not sure if autobrakes is a requirement for that or not?) We are Cat I certified only.

 

[172driver]

We are pretty sheltered here in the US when it comes to aviation safety. ATC, TCAS, GPWS, GPS, tight regulations, well-maintained airports, etc. We have our hands held a lot as pilots but winter ops are the one area where a lot is left to our judgment. Our get it done attitude can burn us quickly in this situation, as we really aren't given very good tools to make an informed decision about operating on a contaminated runway.

It has always bothered me that usually our only source of information is reports from other pilots who landed a different airplane at a different time. Surely there is better technology out there? In addition, in my experience, the only performance data we are given is advisory only and assumes we know the depth and type of contamination we will find when we get there -- wishful at best.

Be safe out there. If in doubt, go somewhere else. Nobody thanks us for the times we get it down and stopped, but they sure get upset when we don't.

 

[ultrarunner]

You forgot .....

1) Paid for training (PFT)

2) Concessions for growth

and .....

3) the RJDC!!!!!!

Backpacks got jammed in front of the brakes!

 

[paulsalem]

Lake Effect snow does not exist when the body of water is frozen.

Correct but it can come from other lakes (Huron). I'm watching the CLE news now on an overnight and the Meteorologist just said it was lake effect that "came out of nowhere and only lasted 10 minutes."

 

[AWACoff]

[
"QUOTE"We've had some pretty heavy lake effect snow squalls today which is strange since the lake is frozen over."UNQUOTE" (MGB)

I'm just quoting this guy's statement about Lake Effect off a frozen lake. I don't know if Huron or Erie is frozen over.

 

[flyer172r]

None of the Shuttle 170s have autobrakes.

What I want to know is what the crew was told about the visibility before they crossed the outer marker. If all they had heard was 1/4 sm. vis, then they legally couldn't have shot the approach.

 

[cwebster2]

1/4 mile vis? Does anyone have any charts handy? What are the mins to shoot the approach? 6000 ft is kind of short to be a CAT 2/3 runway. Also, does the 170 have autobrakes/autoland? Just wondering.

its a cat I runway, and this notam was active:

!FDC 7/3107 (KCLE A0785/07) CLE FI/T CLEVELAND-HOPKINS INTL, CLEVELAND, OH. ILS RWY 28, AMDT 22.... DUE TO EFFECTS OF SNOW ON THE GLIDE SLOPE MINIMUMS TEMPORARILY RAISED TO LOCALIZER ONLY FOR ALL CATEGORY AIRCRAFT. GLIDE SLOPE REMAINS IN SERVICE. HOWEVER, ANGLE MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN PUBLISHED.

yesterday we were all getting cleared for the "ILS 28 No glideslope"

 

[vectorvictor]

not mon morning qbing but - on the 170 when you add gust factor plus ice speeds with high landing weight you get Vapp speeds approaching 150kts. That can be a real bitch when your down to around a 5000ft runway left for rollout.

in these situations (many speed additives) it is wise to go with flaps full landing - you decrease Vapp and ref by 10 kts. -10kts at 70000lb landing weight helps, remember momentum(or energy you need to dissapate on landing) increases with the square of velocity.

Yeah....ummm....what he said.

 

[Superpilot92]

I was going into CLE when this happened. We ended up diverting since they shut the airport down. There is one very important aspect of this no one has mentioned. The atis was calling for ILS 28 approach 1/4 mile vis + sn broken 600 ft. But in the notams it said GLIDESLOPE Unusable do to snow buildup. So as far as i know they were only doing LOC approaches into 28. We were inbound from Canada and read that and realized we were probably not going to get in on the LOC especially on 28 and then Center told us the airport was closed because of an incident. Just thought i would through that out there about the Glide slope out and also the papi was unusable also because of snow buildup I am glad everyone is ok, this could have been alot worse.

 

[MJG]

Yea it turns out that the lake effect snow we had here yesterday was indeed coming off of lake Huron, not Erie as it is indeed about 99% frozen over, absolutely amazing.

It's unfortunate that they were running the loc only into 28 in those conditions. That's a recipe for, well, exactly what happened. Glad no one was seriously hurt. As someone mentioned earlier, just another 100 feet further and the aircraft plummets down about a 100 foot cliff into the Metorpark and the Rocky River. The next time you land on 10 in CLE look below you on very short final, scary!

 

[Ross]

FI's top ten list of reasons why the regional jet went off the runway:

10) FO was busy frosting his hair on final.

9) Crew was not dressed properly (left hats at home).

8) Crew was distracted by ipod video's, didn't see runway coming.

7) Crew was underpaid.

6) Republicans' fault.

5) Hilary's fault.

4) Jet Blue's fault.

3) Mesa's fault

2) Leather crew jackets.


Annnnnnd, Number 1):


SJS!!!

You are so right!

 

[dooork]

ATIS is always overriding factor. Until it has been changed that is what is legal to the FAA and NTSB. The rest is hearsay.

Incorrect. That is why aircraft and ATC transmissions are recorded and saved.

If you go your whole career and nothing like this happens you can say wow I was one lucky sob. Otherwise, like somone else said, this can happen to anyone of us on any given day.

 

[buxflyr]

Yea it turns out that the lake effect snow we had here yesterday was indeed coming off of lake Huron, not Erie as it is indeed about 99% frozen over, absolutely amazing.

What? When was the last time lake effect snow reversed course, went SW and nailed Cleveland from Lake Huron?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

What? When was the last time lake effect snow reversed course, went SW and nailed Cleveland from Lake Huron?

Probably about the same time you took Great Lakes geography. Huron is straight north of CLE, Lake Ontario is northeast.

 

[V-1]

Just curious...what are the visibility requirements for the localizer approach for 28?

 

[CitationLover]

Just curious...what are the visibility requirements for the localizer approach for 28?

http://map.aeroplanner.com/plates/FaaPlates_pdfs/00084I28.PDF

Cat C - 3/4sm or 4000 RVR
Cat D - 1sm or 5000 RVR

 

[buxflyr]

Probably about the same time you took Great Lakes geography. Huron is straight north of CLE, Lake Ontario is northeast.

dammit I am such an idiot. See what happens when you come home after a 4 day trip and try to post on FI.com at midnight when you are tired?! Thanks for the correction!

 

[GINCHBLASTER]

ATIS is always overriding factor. Until it has been changed that is what is legal to the FAA and NTSB. The rest is hearsay.

So if an ATIS reports 1/4mi, and the approach requires 1/2mi or 2400RVR, and tower reports that RVR is greater than 5000, you would not shoot the approach? You're a captain?

 

[LJPilot]

Do those jets have VNAV?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Does any other airline have the new actual landing distance requirement that we have at ASA per the FAA? I was told that it was the direct result of the SWA accident.

We have to calculate the actual landing distance at the time of arrival. When I went to CLE the other day (before the incident, but after the first snowstorm) the runway data we used for the CR7 said we needed around 6000'. I guess we would have have been prohibited from landing 28.

Does Shuttle have this chart yet?

 

[bertengineer]

Does any other airline have the new actual landing distance requirement that we have at ASA per the FAA? I was told that it was the direct result of the SWA accident.

We have to calculate the actual landing distance at the time of arrival. When I went to CLE the other day (before the incident, but after the first snowstorm) the runway data we used for the CR7 said we needed around 6000'. I guess we would have have been prohibited from landing 28.

Does Shuttle have this chart yet?

Do you mean by looking up actual landing distance for your weight and adding another 40% to see if the runway in use is feasable?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

No, not factored stuff...actual landing distance based on the actual weather at the time of landing. Must be less than the runway available. I believe we add a 1000' buffer to that at ASA in snowy conditions.

 

[LaxPilot]

Any Photos of the accident???????????????????????????

 

[8HourPilot]

Yep...

Do those jets have VNAV?

 

[CitationLover]

Do you mean by looking up actual landing distance for your weight and adding another 40% to see if the runway in use is feasable?

this is a dispatch operation (121.195). once in the air, it is simply can you land there or not, ie the landing distance from the chart.

are you guys that conservative where you add back in the 40% dispatch requirement?

 

[AirBill]

Yea it turns out that the lake effect snow we had here yesterday was indeed coming off of lake Huron, not Erie as it is indeed about 99% frozen over, absolutely amazing.

What? When was the last time lake effect snow reversed course, went SW and nailed Cleveland from Lake Huron?

Ah yes, the Magic Lake Effect Snowstorm. May even be a Zapruder film out there.