Alpa President John Prater's Video Response To Age 60

[Freight Dog]

PCL... the issue here is not the perception of reality as much as it is deception by Prater.

Here is the type of deception I'm talking about:

I understand your pilot group is in negotiations. You polled your members and they want raises and improved work rules. Your MEC is saying that they'll go with the majority. So here comes the Company offer telling you that this is their last, final and best offer which is basically status quo. It doesn't even come close to what your membership wanted. The membership spoke loud and clear that they'll walk out given the current conditions.

Well damn, now you need to build your PIC turbine time and you say damn... screw these guys. How about we do an MEC ratification, sign this contract and get it over with, and that's what you end up doing.

That's basically what Prater did in a nutshell. He saw that the majority of ALPA was against the rule change. Yet, he wants the rule to change. So he paid a lip service to the majority in ALPA and now started this whole implementation blue-ribbon crapola without even putting up a fight.

Prater needs to go.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys.. if the change is coming.... and the majority doesn't want the change...what do you suggest?

FNG?
seefive?
Frieght dog?

(that's not for me to figure out isn't an answer....)

 

[PCL_128]

So are you saying that SWAPA and JB(no representation) won over ALPA on this one...say it isn't so.

No, this had nothing to do with SWAPA or JetBlew, or any other airline or union. In my opinion, this had to do with an FAA Administrator that wanted to make her mark on the history of the organization, and the ICAO rule change (which IFALPA fought, by the way) gave her the excuse to do it. Nothing that any union said would have changed that.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL... the issue here is not the perception of reality as much as it is deception by Prater.

Here is the type of deception I'm talking about:

I understand your pilot group is in negotiations. You polled your members and they want raises and improved work rules. Your MEC is saying that they'll go with the majority. So here comes the Company offer telling you that this is their last, final and best offer which is basically status quo. It doesn't even come close to what your membership wanted. The membership spoke loud and clear that they'll walk out given the current conditions.

Well dang, now you need to build your PIC turbine time and you say dang... screw these guys. How about we do an MEC ratification, sign this contract and get it over with, and that's what you end up doing.

Your analogy is faulty. Pilot groups have a recourse if management refuses to bargain in good faith: self-help. We will continue to fight for what the membership has directed us to fight for, and if management refuses to capitulate, then self-help will eventually be an option.

No such option exists in this case. The rule is going to change. Period. We have no recourse. When it changes, it's done, and we're stuck with whatever it looks like. We need to make sure that what it looks like is at least somewhat palatable. That's what the blue-ribbon panel is going to work on.

That's basically what Prater did in a nutshell. He saw that the majority of ALPA was against the rule change. Yet, he wants the rule to change. So he paid a lip service to the majority in ALPA and now started this whole implementation blue-ribbon crapola without even putting up a fight.

Captain Woerth told several MECs long before the election that this was likely going to be coming down the pike very soon. This has nothing to do with Captain Prater's own personal opinions. I never heard Captain Woerth say anything remotely in favor of a rule change, either publicly or in private, so I have no problem believing that this rule change was out of our control. We fought it valiantly for over two decades, but there's nothing left that we can do to stop it now.

Prater needs to go.

I hear a lot of you saying this, but I haven't seen anyone offer an alternative. The same people that attacked Captain Woerth are now attacking Captain Prater. You want both of them gone, so who is going to replace them if you get rid of them? I'll remind you that they were the only two candidates.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Change: Adapt or die....

 

[Andy]

Guys.. if the change is coming.... and the majority doesn't want the change...what do you suggest?

FNG?
seefive?
Frieght dog?

(that's not for me to figure out isn't an answer....)

I guess that I'm chopped liver, eh?

It doesn't matter whether or not the change is 'coming.' It matters that the ALPA president failed to represent the MAJORITY of ALPA, as per multiple polls.
Send a message to the world ... recall the president of ALPA who pushed for the change, in spite of what the majority wanted. It may not stop the change, but it is for the good of ALPA. An ALPA president who goes against the majority DESERVES to be recalled.

 

[Andy]

I hear a lot of you saying this, but I haven't seen anyone offer an alternative. The same people that attacked Captain Woerth are now attacking Captain Prater. You want both of them gone, so who is going to replace them if you get rid of them? I'll remind you that they were the only two candidates.

I don't care. prater has gone against the majority of the membership. Woerth didn't bother me; he was a politician. prater is a liar.
As for candidates, you and I both know that there are plenty who would be more than happy to pop out of the woodwork IF there was a chance to be elected, so don't waste bandwidth talking about just two candidates. That does NOT justify prater's lies.

 

[Freight Dog]

Your analogy is faulty. Pilot groups have a recourse if management refuses to bargain in good faith: self-help. We will continue to fight for what the membership has directed us to fight for, and if management refuses to capitulate, then self-help will eventually be an option.

You need to re-read my post. I used a hypothetical scenario of the MEC going against the membership and signing a dirtbag contract through MEC ratification process effectively negating any self-help possibility and also disregarding the majority. That's very similar to what happened here. Prater effectively ignored the majority to serve his own agenda.

No such option exists in this case. The rule is going to change. Period. We have no recourse. When it changes, it's done, and we're stuck with whatever it looks like. We need to make sure that what it looks like is at least somewhat palatable. That's what the blue-ribbon panel is going to work on.

Whether or not the rule will change is irrelevant in this case. What IS relevant is that Prater sold out the majority and gave this up without a fight. As such, I support recalling him just for that reason, and that reason alone.

Captain Woerth told several MECs long before the election that this was likely going to be coming down the pike very soon. This has nothing to do with Captain Prater's own personal opinions. I never heard Captain Woerth say anything remotely in favor of a rule change, either publicly or in private, so I have no problem believing that this rule change was out of our control. We fought it valiantly for over two decades, but there's nothing left that we can do to stop it now.

Uh huh... Prater comes in and less than a month, out comes the NPRM, and his response was blue ribbon. Now why is that? You can't tell me that APAAD, SWAPA and JB have more political clout than ALPA. Prater openly said he was in favor of repealing the rule, but will oppose it if the majority opposes it. The majority opposed it, and he didn't do a damn thing to at least try to stop it. His idea of "opposing it" is this blue ribbon b.s. Please! This man ran a good campaign, but lost all my trust with this issue. I will back any effort to recall him.

I hear a lot of you saying this, but I haven't seen anyone offer an alternative. The same people that attacked Captain Woerth are now attacking Captain Prater. You want both of them gone, so who is going to replace them if you get rid of them? I'll remind you that they were the only two candidates.

How about this fight for our profession? He sold out the majority for his own gain. In recent history, ALPA has vigorously and actively opposed any rule change. In comes Prater, and that vigorous and active opposition to any change of age 60 rule is out. The end result is this NPRM.

I don't care who replaces him, but I hope it's someone with integrity to follow wishes of the majority as opposed to following his own self-serving agenda.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess that I'm chopped liver, eh?

It doesn't matter whether or not the change is 'coming.' It matters that the ALPA president failed to represent the MAJORITY of ALPA, as per multiple polls.
Send a message to the world ... recall the president of ALPA who pushed for the change, in spite of what the majority wanted. It may not stop the change, but it is for the good of ALPA. An ALPA president who goes against the majority DESERVES to be recalled.

so recalling Prater is your solution to the Age 60 issue? After the recall then what? Specifically, Chopped Liver, what is your next move?

 

[Freight Dog]

Guys.. if the change is coming.... and the majority doesn't want the change...what do you suggest?

FNG?
seefive?
Frieght dog?

(that's not for me to figure out isn't an answer....)

When the change is the result of already being sold out, it's too late for anything but a recall.

Originally, I was hoping for an active campaign by ALPA to first prevent this from ever becoming an NPRM; alternatively, active and vocal opposition to stop this NPRM from ever becoming a rule. Blue Ribbon ain't it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When the change is the result of already being sold out, it's too late for anything but a recall.

Originally, I was hoping for an active campaign by ALPA to first prevent this from ever becoming an NPRM; alternatively, active and vocal opposition to stop this NPRM from ever becoming a rule. Blue Ribbon ain't it.

Have you considered that you are the vocal minority?

Do you contribute to ALPA-PAC? Do you have diaolog with your Leg Affairs chairman?

Also, the goal is not to wait on this stuff till after the fact..better to be involved in your career before hand....sure you may have to buy a hotel room to attend the LEC meeting the next day... but isn't that what democracy is all about?

But let's get back to reality.... Recall.......

Even if you are successful with a recall... (sorry but I don't think you have the political skills or the support to even make ground at an LEC meeting) and you create a power vacuum..then what? Who is your successor? (Chopped Liver? aka Andy)

Finally what about all those Captains who just had their retirements yanked and need another 5 years to recoup some of their loses before they go fly frac?

 

[Purpled]

Finally what about all those Captains who just had their retirements yanked and need another 5 years to recoup some of their loses before they go fly frac?

That doesn't give them the right to take money out of my pocket to recoup their losses.

I thought your position was 'fixing alpa' not being a puppet for their lack of proper execution of their duties?

 

[FoxHunter]

I don't care. prater has gone against the majority of the membership. Woerth didn't bother me; he was a politician. prater is a liar.
As for candidates, you and I both know that there are plenty who would be more than happy to pop out of the woodwork IF there was a chance to be elected, so don't waste bandwidth talking about just two candidates. That does NOT justify prater's lies.

How about a Vote, not poll on the issue? There are those that believe you no longer hold a majority opinion.:beer:

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

Just watched the video, what a fcuk stick he is. I bet that conversation never took place and that dip sh1t is making it up as he goes trying to build support what what he has been secretly supporting to the FAA administrator all along.

I know this will effect us all, but Im glad that Jack0ff if not in charge of my union...

Good luck with that one ALPA... When is the next election???

BBDC8

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That doesn't give them the right to take money out of my pocket to recoup their losses.

They old fogey's aren't making the change they are just going with the flow...

I thought your position was 'fixing alpa' not being a puppet for their lack of proper execution of their duties?

My intention is to get the pissed off mob to understand the dynamics of the situation so they can effect change.......

calling for recall is not going to help your situation...

 

[PCL_128]

He sold out the majority for his own gain.

His own gain? What does Captain Prater have to gain by all this? A pissed off mob of guys like yourself? Age-60 doesn't affect the ALPA President. He can continue to serve, and even run again, long after passing the age of 60. Sorry, but personal gain does not apply here.

 

[Freight Dog]

I was gonna ignore this, but....

Have you considered that you are the vocal minority?

According to last 2 polls, nope. Prove me wrong though.

Do you contribute to ALPA-PAC? Do you have diaolog with your Leg Affairs chairman?

Yes, I have. But you won't see me contribute another dime to ALPA-PAC. I simply don't trust our national leadership.

Also, the goal is not to wait on this stuff till after the fact..better to be involved in your career before hand....sure you may have to buy a hotel room to attend the LEC meeting the next day... but isn't that what democracy is all about?

Like you said, the damage is done. What isn't done is how this damage occurred. I'm sure more information will come to light as time goes on, and then my friend, I won't need any, as you say, political skills or support to make ground. The facts will speak for themselves.

Finally what about all those Captains who just had their retirements yanked and need another 5 years to recoup some of their loses before they go fly frac?

We are already helping them at my airline by having a targeted contribution plan to help those greatly affected by the loss of our A-plan. So yes, the younger folks are getting less to help out the senior guys on top, and I support helping them.

Ignorance can sure be a bliss, huh Rez?

 

[PCL_128]

I don't care.

I think that says it all right there. You're pissed off, so you're going to crucify someone to satisfy your blood lust. It doesn't matter what the negative effects will be, as long as you've had someone's head on a platter. Pathetic.

 

[redbook]

That's basically what Prater did in a nutshell. He saw that the majority of ALPA was against the rule change. Yet, he wants the rule to change. So he paid a lip service to the majority in ALPA and now started this whole implementation blue-ribbon crapola without even putting up a fight.

Prater needs to go.

Exactly.

PCL and Rez, what happened to "taking it back" "no surrender" etc?

Instead its just, "the rule is doomed" "get over it" etc.

Its an NPRM. How about fighting to the end and not providing political cover to Blakely? All the press coverage is quick to point out that ALPA is "divided" and mentions the change in ALPA leadership. Prater should have taken an agressive public stance, not the wink and nudge.

 

[Purpled]

My intention is to get the pissed off mob to understand the dynamics of the situation so they can effect change.......

calling for recall is not going to help your situation...

1. I don't know where that middle blue statement came from when you quoted me, but it wasn't in my post.

2. My post didn't mention anything about recall.

3. Why don't you explain the dynamics so we can have some change.

 

[Purpled]

I think that says it all right there. You're pissed off, so you're going to crucify someone to satisfy your blood lust. It doesn't matter what the negative effects will be, as long as you've had someone's head on a platter. Pathetic.

Way to the first three words of his post out of context...get with it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So the FAA, WH, ATA, DOT, special interest groups, ICAO and who ever else in the international industry and all their money want Age 65... and a majority of 66,000 US pilots are going to do what......exactly..... what are you going to do..........?

 

[Flopgut]

So the FAA, WH, ATA, DOT, special interest groups, ICAO and who ever else in the international industry and all their money want Age 65... and a majority of 66,000 US pilots are going to do what......exactly..... what are you going to do..........?

I'm willing to consider everything, up to and including, a new union! I respect ALPA and I like Captain Prater, but if ALPA can't shape this change into a more broadbased benefit, or our leader can't help us ALL see his vision, then it's not working IMHO. This event, specifically, could be a tipping point. Most oppose it now and unless pilot labor gets some significant input into the final rule, 90% will regret it when it is implemented. That's a good time to consider a change. We're a large group of workers who make pretty good money and are willing to spend for good representation; we aren't getting our money's worth!

ATA had a union change with AFL-CIO involved. Any of you folks care to weigh in?

PS: All this being said, my first wish is for Captain Prater to lead and inspire us all to support ALPA and make this a good thing for every member.

 

[Skater]

[/quote]Its an NPRM. How about fighting to the end and not providing political cover to Blakely? All the press coverage is quick to point out that ALPA is "divided" and mentions the change in ALPA leadership. Prater should have taken an agressive public stance, not the wink and nudge.[/quote]


ALPA proudly points out that they were able to shoot down the NPRM from the DOT concerning foreign ownership last year. I personally don't see the difference between the DOT and FAA in regard to fighting a NPRM they are against. Does someone know if there is a difference? If not, get on it for your members sake.

 

[pipe]

His own gain? What does Captain Prater have to gain by all this? A pissed off mob of guys like yourself? Age-60 doesn't affect the ALPA President. He can continue to serve, and even run again, long after passing the age of 60. Sorry, but personal gain does not apply here.

As long as the people around him are happy with his performance, he will feel that he's doing a good job and everybody loves him. Who's around him? A bunch of 55 year old pilots who are political in nature. What message do you think he's getting from them? It sure isn't pissed-off mob.

I hope he doesn't just sit there fiddling while Rome burns around him.

PIPE

 

[rtmcfi]

My intention is to get the pissed off mob to understand the dynamics of the situation so they can effect change.......

calling for recall is not going to help your situation...

As one who always tries to call the pilots to action, I would think you would approve of some motivated pilots taking action. What would be so wrong with having a pres that effectively attempts to do as his constituents wish? On a related note, Why would a SkyWest pilot want ALPA if this is the kind of representation they could expect? I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that the majority of the SkyWest pilots will be negatively impacted by a 65 retirement age.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As one who always tries to call the pilots to action, I would think you would approve of some motivated pilots taking action. What would be so wrong with having a pres that effectively attempts to do as his constituents wish? On a related note, Why would a SkyWest pilot want ALPA if this is the kind of representation they could expect? I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that the majority of the SkyWest pilots will be negatively impacted by a 65 retirement age.

Valid point.... but mob frenzy isn't effective....

An effective call to action is boring and takes free time away.... any one interested in that?

 

[redbook]

Its an NPRM. How about fighting to the end and not providing political cover to Blakely? All the press coverage is quick to point out that ALPA is "divided" and mentions the change in ALPA leadership. Prater should have taken an agressive public stance, not the wink and nudge.[/quote]


ALPA proudly points out that they were able to shoot down the NPRM from the DOT concerning foreign ownership last year. I personally don't see the difference between the DOT and FAA in regard to fighting a NPRM they are against. Does someone know if there is a difference? If not, get on it for your members sake.[/quote]

Well? Rez?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Its an NPRM. How about fighting to the end and not providing political cover to Blakely? All the press coverage is quick to point out that ALPA is "divided" and mentions the change in ALPA leadership. Prater should have taken an agressive public stance, not the wink and nudge.

ALPA proudly points out that they were able to shoot down the NPRM from the DOT concerning foreign ownership last year. I personally don't see the difference between the DOT and FAA in regard to fighting a NPRM they are against. Does someone know if there is a difference? If not, get on it for your members sake.

Well? Rez?

.

ALPA didn't single handedly shoot down foreign ownwership.... There was support for many others....plus the changing of congress was the final straw. (can you say ALPA-PAC?) There was much more support against Foreign Control than Age60/65....

I would guess that more ALPA pilots are aligned with stopping F.Ownership than Age65. I would also guess that outside of ALPA more people are against FO as it effects so many... Recall Dubai ports? The outcry was very loud. Who else is crying loud about Age60/65 except the Air Line pilots themselves.

It all comes down to political support. Just because ALPA wants something to happen doesn't mean they just make it so... ALPA, like any association on the Hill, has to find others who share support or who are willing to support in exchange for support...

It is the way it is done on CapHill....like it or not...

Put it this way..in order to beat your enemy who have to know your enemy... IOW..find out why the push for age 65 is so strong..why it is going to happen and work your issue from there... it may be too late... Age 65 might have so much momentum, too many camel noses under the tent and the point of return passed to to stop it....

Which means if you really cared about age 60 then you might have been working much harder years ago to ensure that processes were in place to protect it... Or sometimes change happens and that is just the way it is... Whatever the case maybe...... Regardless...

What is your response going to be?

1. Recall Prater?
2. Resign from ALPA?
3. Start a new union?

One and three take allot of energy and your free time. Free time that you weren't willing to spend to protect age 60...so I highly doubt that you will be successful.. prove me wrong...

As far as resigning.... not sure that is valid... sure it is an emotional feel good that you are doing something but that is like renouncing your citizenship because you don't like an aspect of US gov't policy.

Being a US sailor is no longer a career.... Hopefully that won't happen to US Pilots.... Juan and Xiang are willing to fly our jets for much much less...with no health care and no retirement...

 

[redbook]

ALPA didn't single handedly shoot down foreign ownwership.... There was support for many others....plus the changing of congress was the final straw. (can you say ALPA-PAC?) There was much more support against Foreign Control than Age60/65....

I would guess that more ALPA pilots are aligned with stopping F.Ownership than Age65. I would also guess that outside of ALPA more people are against FO as it effects so many... Recall Dubai ports? The outcry was very loud. Who else is crying loud about Age60/65 except the Air Line pilots themselves.

It all comes down to political support. Just because ALPA wants something to happen doesn't mean they just make it so... ALPA, like any association on the Hill, has to find others who share support or who are willing to support in exchange for support...

It is the way it is done on CapHill....like it or not...

Put it this way..in order to beat your enemy who have to know your enemy... IOW..find out why the push for age 65 is so strong..why it is going to happen and work your issue from there... it may be too late... Age 65 might have so much momentum, too many camel noses under the tent and the point of return passed to to stop it....

Which means if you really cared about age 60 then you might have been working much harder years ago to ensure that processes were in place to protect it... Or sometimes change happens and that is just the way it is... Whatever the case maybe...... Regardless...

What is your response going to be?

1. Recall Prater?
2. Resign from ALPA?
3. Start a new union?

One and three take allot of energy and your free time. Free time that you weren't willing to spend to protect age 60...so I highly doubt that you will be successful.. prove me wrong...

As far as resigning.... not sure that is valid... sure it is an emotional feel good that you are doing something but that is like renouncing your citizenship because you don't like an aspect of US gov't policy.

Being a US sailor is no longer a career.... Hopefully that won't happen to US Pilots.... Juan and Xiang are willing to fly our jets for much much less...with no health care and no retirement...

Rez,

You make compelling arguments and your points are tough to dispute. Your last statement rings all too true and I fear we may be on the losing end of a long term trend. Perhaps that is why I would like to see a more rigorous defense by ALPA.

Nice post and thanks for the response.