AAA/AWA Integration...

[5150]

"Taking hits from the bong, as" the US Air pilots "pass it along". What do you not understand about "career expectations" It's not career fantasies or career wishes. Once again "career expectations".

I know exactly what my career expectations were with the upcoming retirements at USAir. Why should that be a windfall for the west side ?
Answer .... It won't be, as the arbitrator has no intention of stapling the furloughees to the bottom.

 

[m80drvr]

Well it looked like DOH as it was based on Length of service....Kinda a windfall for your bottom guys. Meanwhile your proposal, looked so fair too....

What the hell are you talking about, a windfall for the junior AWA guys?

 

[Eagle757shark]

Sir or Madame: Appreciate your usual accurate posts...but the nine A-330's that AAA already has are -300 version.

Regards..

US Airways currently has 9 A330-300 aircraft flying today. US Airways also has 10 A330-200 aircraft on firm order with the initial delivery due in 2008. I was saying going forward they should increase that A330-200 order. The A330-300 version may have a questionable range going from Phoenix to Europe. The A330-200 has a better range and performance than the -300. I know the company wants the A350. However, the A350 may not be available for years to come. Airbus is having so many problems with the A380, they've become years behind on the A350. Going forward US Airways will need wide body aircraft, and I believe you will probable see them choose the A330-200 in the short term to do that international expansion so desperately needed.

 

[m80drvr]

I know exactly what my career expectations were with the upcoming retirements at USAir. Why should that be a windfall for the west side ?
Answer .... It won't be, as the arbitrator has no intention of stapling the furloughees to the bottom.

I would guess that anyone hired in 99 will be below the most junior AWA pilot. The arbitrator has asked for a Seniorioty list as of 7/01/07. By that time all of the current awa pilots will have almost the same "time on property" as ALL of the 99 hires. As for the guys with alot of "time on property", who knows.

I do know this, a furloughed pilot really has no job expectations. BUT what they do expect is that when or if they are recalled they will be at the bottom of the seniority list. He / she will be the most junior FO on reserve. The east list was a little absurd in assuming that a furloughed pilot should be recalled to a mid level or higher line holding CAPTAIN position.

It sucks, it's a raw deal but furlough blows. I've had a couple of them. I also know that their will only be a small percentage of pilots that will be happy with the arbitrators decision.

 

[m80drvr]

I know exactly what my career expectations were with the upcoming retirements at USAir. Why should that be a windfall for the west side ?
Answer .... It won't be, as the arbitrator has no intention of stapling the furloughees to the bottom.

If you were to read the transcripts you would see that the arbitrator didn't appear to like the testimony of the furloughed East guy that said in 20 years he expected to retire on the 330, or something to that effect.

As we have all seen with the change in the age 60 rule, retirements are not set in stone. But again we are not making the decision. I believe, as posted earlier, that most if not all of the 99 hires will be at the bottom due to similar "time on property" as the current most junior west guy.

It all depends what the arbitrator feels a furloughed pilot brings to the table with respect to ALPO merger policy.

Just my opinion, I'm probably wrong. Just ask my wife.

 

[Superbird]

I bought my home based upon my credit and ability to pay back the loan, technically it's my house. Even though the bank loaned me the money.

How is that different from AWA buying/aquiring US Airways?

 

[michael707767]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but who cares when someone is hired, it's seniority that counts and what your seniority brings to the table. If your seniority has you on furlough, then that's what your seniority brings to the table and the expectations associated with that seniority number. Generally speaking, anyone actively flying ought to be senior to anyone on furlough.

I agree. At your own airline, your seniority has nothing to do with when you were hired. It has everything to do with where you sit on the list. Halfway up the list is 10 years at some airlines, maybe 20 years at others. Either way, that pilot is only halfway up the list.

Now, some accomodation needs to be made for equipment. AWA has no widebodies. But, beyond that, sorry, where you sit on the list is where you sit on the list.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I

Just my opinion, I'm probably wrong. Just ask my wife.

Man why did you have to bring wives into this mess?? Dam, I gotta go she just heard me on this board again

WD.

 

[Doug Parker]

.

Just remember - this sacred widebody captain seat goes all the way to 1100-something on the AAA list.................for what, like 150 captain seats ???



.

 

[Joey Bagodonutz]

It is true that AWA did acquire AAA. If you must, dig through last years prospectus to see it regarded as a reverse acquistion. All that means is the acquirer retains the acquireds name. But nontheless it is an acquisition. Being a part of the financial community I can say I absolutely guarantee AAA would have been liquidated if not for AWA. The closing date of the merger was even moved up to facilitate AAA debt. Being that is the case it seems that any AAA pilot would be happy to even be on the bottom of any list. Guess pilots are rather unrealistic.

Cheers

 

[Crzipilot]

Well I believe the arbitrator has stated in previous decisions, something to the fact, Nobody has a crystal ball, so such/such company may have or may not have gone out of business. Fact of the matter is, both companies are here now and merging together. With that fact, take into account career progression, and even though I'm on furlough, progression at my carrier, had me making Capt. sooner than someone at the same relative seniority on the west side. True, at present day I'm on the street, but with the emerging retirements, whether it's as planned now, or pushed back 5 yrs. the end result is the same. A large vaccum on the east side sucking people up the list. As shown on the seniority progression chart, by 2014 the bottom guy at AWA was expected to be a block holding 757 f/o. Where as the bottom guy on the US list was expected to make capt 320. And at 2016 the West guy still wouldn't have been able to hold capt. In fact 2016, the individual about 200 numbers from the bottom, would just be at the point of possibly checking out, 2 years and 200 numbers above the West bottom guy.
So if you look beyond the immediate 1-2 years.....there's a huge windfall for the West side......as their movement up a combined list or relative seniority would be quite a bit quicker..

 

[Contract]

That was pretty Funny Crzipilot...Now put down the Crack Pipe.

You guys were hanging on by a thread. Thats what we love about you. Help us to help you! Help us to help you! You guys are alright...Great sense of humor.

 

[Hpilot]

Well I believe the arbitrator has stated in previous decisions, something to the fact, Nobody has a crystal ball, so such/such company may have or may not have gone out of business. Fact of the matter is, both companies are here now and merging together. With that fact, take into account career progression, and even though I'm on furlough, progression at my carrier, had me making Capt. sooner than someone at the same relative seniority on the west side. True, at present day I'm on the street, but with the emerging retirements, whether it's as planned now, or pushed back 5 yrs. the end result is the same. A large vaccum on the east side sucking people up the list. As shown on the seniority progression chart, by 2014 the bottom guy at AWA was expected to be a block holding 757 f/o. Where as the bottom guy on the US list was expected to make capt 320. And at 2016 the West guy still wouldn't have been able to hold capt. In fact 2016, the individual about 200 numbers from the bottom, would just be at the point of possibly checking out, 2 years and 200 numbers above the West bottom guy.
So if you look beyond the immediate 1-2 years.....there's a huge windfall for the West side......as their movement up a combined list or relative seniority would be quite a bit quicker..

Ah yeahhhhhh, 12 years to be a line holding 757 FO at America West before the merger. When we were hiring 10-20 a month. How can you guys even think anyone would believe that. That's not even mentioning your chart would have quit with the word liquidation.

 

[vetrider]

Well I believe the arbitrator has stated in previous decisions, something to the fact, Nobody has a crystal ball, so such/such company may have or may not have gone out of business. Fact of the matter is, both companies are here now and merging together. With that fact, take into account career progression, and even though I'm on furlough, progression at my carrier, had me making Capt. sooner than someone at the same relative seniority on the west side. True, at present day I'm on the street, but with the emerging retirements, whether it's as planned now, or pushed back 5 yrs. the end result is the same. A large vaccum on the east side sucking people up the list. As shown on the seniority progression chart, by 2014 the bottom guy at AWA was expected to be a block holding 757 f/o. Where as the bottom guy on the US list was expected to make capt 320. And at 2016 the West guy still wouldn't have been able to hold capt. In fact 2016, the individual about 200 numbers from the bottom, would just be at the point of possibly checking out, 2 years and 200 numbers above the West bottom guy.
So if you look beyond the immediate 1-2 years.....there's a huge windfall for the West side......as their movement up a combined list or relative seniority would be quite a bit quicker..

Then how come Nicolau made it clear he didn't like the east proposal? I'm not trying to jump on you with that, because I understand he didn't like the west proposal either. But the fact that he doesn't buy the east proposal does to me mean there is a flaw somewhere in the east mc argument that you just reiterated.

I don't think you or I can see the forest for all the trees. Nicolau will get to the bottom of it for us, thankfully.

 

[FDJ2]

I absolutely guarantee AAA would have been liquidated if not for AWA. The closing date of the merger was even moved up to facilitate AAA debt. Being that is the case it seems that any AAA pilot would be happy to even be on the bottom of any list.

The AAA acquisition did bring value to AWA. The combination of the two carriers has not only prevented AAA from liquidation, but it has made the new entity, LCC, a relatively strong airline. Something neither airline was before. So it can not be argued that AAA and its pilots have not brought something of value to the table, something that AWA wanted and that has in fact improved the career expectations of the AWA pilots.

 

[vetrider]

The AAA acquisition did bring value to AWA. The combination of the two carriers has not only prevented AAA from liquidation, but it has made the new entity, LCC, a relatively strong airline. Something neither airline was before. So it can not be argued that AAA and its pilots have not brought something of value to the table, something that AWA wanted and that has in fact improved the career expectations of the AWA pilots.

Very well said. Of course AAA brings much of value to the table, I would certainly never say otherwise. There is a happy medium somewhere, I just don't think that anyone from either property could ever find it, it will most definately take a third party, namely Nicolau.

From what I have heard, Nicolau is as good a guy to have as anyone. Not to say everyone will like what he comes up with, but I do think he will get as close to a sqaure deal for both sides as is humanly possible.

 

[Hpilot]

The AAA acquisition did bring value to AWA. The combination of the two carriers has not only prevented AAA from liquidation, but it has made the new entity, LCC, a relatively strong airline. Something neither airline was before. So it can not be argued that AAA and its pilots have not brought something of value to the table, something that AWA wanted and that has in fact improved the career expectations of the AWA pilots.

The only thing I've experienced so far is complete stagnation. I agree they brought a vast(but dysfunctional) east network and international flying, but I would expect to be fenced off of that.

 

[Vne]

I say hold a lottery.
Place all captains in one jar.(sub jars for eq.) and fo's in the other.
Start pulling out names. When done place captains list on top and fo's on bottom. Then each side can only be mad at fate.
Fair is fair.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well in the first post I made, I stated the board didn't like either proposal, why, none of us know. The arbitrator made the same statement during the US Shuttle integration.

As others stated, obviously AAA brought some value, What is it...60% or so of the revenue/profit comes from the East side. At the same time, I don't believe either side would have accomplished what is happening as stand alone.

Either way in a few months, none of this will matter, as he will come out with his decision, and as much as any of our views are slanted how things should turn out, depending on where we are on the seniority list. None of it matters, We'll all be pissed at the outcome.

 

[OnTheDole]

The AAA acquisition did bring value to AWA. The combination of the two carriers has not only prevented AAA from liquidation, but it has made the new entity, LCC, a relatively strong airline. Something neither airline was before. So it can not be argued that AAA and its pilots have not brought something of value to the table, something that AWA wanted and that has in fact improved the career expectations of the AWA pilots.

The acquisition did bring value to awa - awa shareholders that is. Until my seniority on the new list is set in stone it has only brought me stagnation. As a junior FO if I get placed below the furloughed it will bring NO value to me or my career, especially after this age 65 decision. Even if the new and improved company is much more financially stable – at best I will see total career stagnation, at worst be furloughed at the slightest hiccup.

Everyday a east captain sits in the left seat is a windfall for him.