Age 65 2007

[Aplus9]

Oh shut up.... those senior pilot didn't have pensions and retirements yanked from them... or lose up to 60-70% of their pay. This isn't about money, it's about discrimination. I for one completely support it.

You contradict yourself.......definitely about money.

 

[munson]

Kassel737 wrote:

"Oh shut up", that's not very nice. I guess these old farts never paid any attention the histories of Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern or countless others. Maybe these guys should have saved more of their money instead of buying boats, harleys, oversized houses and having five wives. I have heard to many stories while flying with capts of how they mismanaged their lives. Do I feel bad for these guys who made a a ton of money and squandered it away? HELLL NO. Move along.

Hopefully your stupidity does run in the family.
Do you honestly believe that these pilots could have looked into to the future to forecast their carrier's demise? That they could mysteriously predict the fall of stocks and bonds? That they could tell when their marriage will go bad; a child is born with a crippling disease or mental retardation; a spouse dies of a long term fight with cancer and leaves the family finances shattered; a tornado wipes out their home and all possessions? Or foretell when they would be hit with a 35 -50% pay cut or a loss of pension?
"I've heard many stories"... most of which are BS. Do you believe that people will mismanage and destroy their lives deliberately?
Please keep in contact, so that when you reach the age of 60, you can tell this forum how great and successful your life turned out.

Stop, I think I'm gonna cry...welcome to LIFE my friend. I am sorry for the guys that ONLY have this job going for them. Do you really think another 5 years is going to make a difference?

 

[Andy]

Do you honestly believe that these pilots could have looked into to the future to forecast their carrier's demise? That they could mysteriously predict the fall of stocks and bonds? That they could tell when their marriage will go bad; a child is born with a crippling disease or mental retardation; a spouse dies of a long term fight with cancer and leaves the family finances shattered; a tornado wipes out their home and all possessions? Or foretell when they would be hit with a 35 -50% pay cut or a loss of pension?

Warbirdfinder, I'm 46 years old. I've been around and followed commercial aviation for 40 years.
Any pilot who has not prepared for the financial demise of their carrier - and I'm including FedEx and UPS - has been totally oblivious to the business. Any airline on top of the world today can easily be chapter 7 material in a very short period of time.
More airlines have folded than there are flying today. The odds are heavily stacked against a pilot to be at an airline that is healthy for his entire career and retirement. This is a highly leveraged business with razor thin margins. It only takes one bad CEO for your airline to be in trouble. Two in a row and you'll be lucky to make it out of chapter 11. Three? Forget it.

This industry is feast and famine; if you've been around it longer than five years, you've seen both. Big pay raises followed by big pay cuts. If you aren't saving money during the good times for the lean times, you're setting yourself up for failure. Reminds me of this tale from Aesop: http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/sherwood/504/ants.html

As far as the financial markets, they fluctuate. Hence the need for diversification. As one approaches retirement age, their portfolio should be more heavily weighted with conservative investments, such as a laddered portfolio of T-bills.

Those that fail to plan plan to fail.

 

[AvroGuy]

The quick and easy fix to this, all Part 121 pilots that reach the age of 60, can elect to retire or move to the right (FO) seat. The upgrades will not be effected. The 60 year olds continue flying (earning a paycheck).

s

My question is for the guys flying with FEs. When a captain moves from the left to the FE seat does his payscale reflect. I would think it does but you never know when the union and managment are involved. I ask because of something a FEDEX FE said to me one time. "I get more senior in the company but more junior in the airplane." He is a DC-10 FE.

 

[skiandsurf]

s

My question is for the guys flying with FEs. When a captain moves from the left to the FE seat does his payscale reflect. I would think it does but you never know when the union and managment are involved. I ask because of something a FEDEX FE said to me one time. "I get more senior in the company but more junior in the airplane." He is a DC-10 FE.

This is where the union would have to figure out a "fair solution". Here is my opinion only....Since they claim that it is not about money, but about being able to work and fly.....They go to the bottom of the seniority list. They start at year 1 payscale. Do you think that they will negotiate an embarrassing first year payrate if they know that they will be there one day? I think not. As the airlines contract and lifestyles favor the most senior pilots, maybe they will now try to level out the playing field.

In my theory, the upgrades will continue. The company wont be stuck with 60 year olds that have 4 weeks vacation and 6 months of sick time. It will be as if they hired a new guy off the street. Remember, he doesnt have to take the companies offer, he can go the way of the current guy.....done, gone, Walmart greeters. Or they can stick around doing what they "really love to do". Remember, its not about the money, its about age discrimination. The only ones that will be effected will be the guys trying to get that "big. lucrative job". (that is no longer).

Again, this is just my quick fix to a more complicted problem.

 

[NoJoy]

If the age 60 rule is discrimination, then why in the heck would one work for a company that blatently discriminates? Everyone knew the rules of 121 flying before they got into this gig-don't go changing the rules just because the cards delt were not a full house. $

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Have any of you ever flown with 59+ year old regional pilots on a consistent basis? Not everyone in this fight is a 777 captain at united or cal doing six flights a month. The regional guys are doing this in a day, in and out of the same weather system, airport delays, and ten minute quick turns. You can't tell me there isn't a level of safety that needs to be addressed in situations like this. However, if the rule changes these pilots are going to be out there on a daily basis like a time bomb ticking...

Quack,

Exactly my point. So many people like to say it’s all about the money. A lot of it is, buts not all. Not everyone above age 60 will be flying in a nice comfortable 777 with breaks every 3 hours. Now imagine the poor out of shape 64 ¾ year old pilot flying some RJ or narrow-body five legs a day with the weather down to mins. Tell me how safe that operation is going to be. Age 65 will be needlessly putting the public safety at risk. We should not tolerate a greedy few putting our lively hoods in jeopardy. An accident at an airline changes everything especially those of the legacies who are on the financial edge.

Age 65 – good for a few, bad for many.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[skiandsurf]

If the age 60 rule is discrimination, then why in the heck would one work for a company that blatently discriminates? Everyone knew the rules of 121 flying before they got into this gig-don't go changing the rules just because the cards delt were not a full house. $

Its easy to have your view, when you are 25-35 yrs old. Believe me, when you get to 50, and your company has taken away everything that you were promised and planned for, your opinions will change like these other guys.

The only "fair" way to take care of this, is what I have proposed.

Its kind of odd that my dad (73 yrs old) can hold a first class medical, and fly a 737 on contract for the government, but cant fly 121.

 

[Joe Schmo]

I find myself financially discrimanted making less the 40k a year, while the US standard is much higher that this. Maybe the discrimination lies in the fact that the top 10%-15% of pilots in this country, in regards to age, seniority, and expierence, makes the majority of airline pilot salaries. Obviously a more expierenced pilot should be compensated better, but maybe collectively both young and old pilots of this country might want work together to force a bill that would set a standard minimum and maximum salary for pilots in conjunction with the age 65 rule.
This would mean that those age 60 pilots would be afforded another 5 years to work, however at a reduced salary. The surplus would then go to bottom so that new airline pilots just starting out would not be compensated less than the indusrty based minimum.

 

[pilotyip]

Remember we have over age 60 121 pilots flying is this country up until 2000. It was done under the conversion of Part 135 scheduled commuter to 121 airlines in 1996. The last guy retired in March of 2000 at the age of 69. There were no instances of crew performance failures for over age 60 121 pilots during the transisiton period, and they were flying demanding trip in 29 seat turbo props on 6 leg a day schedules.

 

[pipe]

Its easy to have your view, when you are 25-35 yrs old. Believe me, when you get to 50, and your company has taken away everything that you were promised and planned for, your opinions will change like these other guys.

The only "fair" way to take care of this, is what I have proposed.

Its kind of odd that my dad (73 yrs old) can hold a first class medical, and fly a 737 on contract for the government, but cant fly 121.

If you EVER believe a promise from corporate America - jokes on you.

Until someone shows me how a 25-35 yr old pilot is ever gonna see one red cent of Social Security, I don't care to hear one frigging word about how the old guys have a "gap" at retirement. I see a gap coming for me too - it will go from retirement until they shovel dirt on me.

Unlike the "old guys", I am acknowledging that and planning for it. I will not whine as I approach mandatory retirement. I have seen what corporate America is about and I am not blind. I am also not obligated to save you at my personal expense. As a matter of fact, I will already be doing that by paying into SSA to cover the mess that the previous (your) generation allowed their government to put it in.

PIPE

 

[DustyBottoms]

Oh shut up.... those senior pilot didn't have pensions and retirements yanked from them... or lose up to 60-70% of their pay. This isn't about money, it's about discrimination. I for one completely support it.

It's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic. Stating that the pilots of yesteryear had the luxury of pensions and retirements while the guys/gals flying now had it yanked from them, and then arguing that your reasoning is discrimination is funny stuff.

 

[skiandsurf]

the mess that the previous (your) generation allowed their government to put it in.

PIPE

I dont know that "my" generation allowed this. I am only 42. Still a few years away from 60.

My proposal, allows those that want to continue flying past 60...to continue (as a new hire FO). How many would do that is the question. When UAL had the FEs, some of the guys went to that seat. Most rarely worked (with all the vacation and sick time they had). This would allow those that want to keep flying the oppportunity to do so. The upgrades would still be happening. The off the street new hires would still be getting hired. (remember, you are not quarunteed anything from corporate america).

The airline keeps there costs down.
The pilots can keep flying (working) if they so desire.
The upgrades will not be effected.
The new hires (from the street) will still be getting hired.

 

[ABXbooger]

How about this...we all stop wasting time writing on FI.com and spend that time continuously writing all of our legislators and ensuring that our union monies are not spent supporting this. Even talking to Southwest guys, the majority there DO NOT want this, yet their union is spending their money pushing this. I am going to ensure the people at my company who don't want this make it VERY clear to our union.

Let's get as organized as the vast minority pushing this is...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Compromise solutions regarding the implementation of increasing age 60+ pilots abound and many viable options are possible. The age 65 crowd is not trying to do the right thing concerning discrimination. The age 65 crowd is trying to simply create a windfall for themselves.

APAAD is not concerned about age 65 passing for another four years. Paul Emens needs the near retirement pilots to retire, improve his seniority, and then force the rule change so he can sit on top for another five years.

The age 65 crowd is the most vial, selfish, self serving, discriminator type of pilot possible other than a scab. The age 65 pilot wants what they want regardless of safety, discrimination, or ICAO policy.

The age 65 crowd will not compromise, we must not in support of age 60. Senator Inyofe has introduced the same bill Stevens did last year. The bill has no compromise or fairness in an age extension. Do not compromise the age 60 position the opposition is not willing to negotiate.

 

[pipe]

Compromise solutions regarding the implementation of increasing age 60+ pilots abound and many viable options are possible. The age 65 crowd is not trying to do the right thing concerning discrimination. The age 65 crowd is trying to simply create a windfall for themselves.

APAAD is not concerned about age 65 passing for another four years. Paul Emens needs the near retirement pilots to retire, improve his seniority, and then force the rule change so he can sit on top for another five years.

The age 65 crowd is the most vial, selfish, self serving, discriminator type of pilot possible other than a scab. The age 65 pilot wants what they want regardless of safety, discrimination, or ICAO policy.

The age 65 crowd will not compromise, we must not in support of age 60. Senator Inyofe has introduced the same bill Stevens did last year. The bill has no compromise or fairness in an age extension. Do not compromise the age 60 position the opposition is not willing to negotiate.

You're right. Did you write?

PIPE

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Compromise solutions regarding the implementation of increasing age 60+ pilots abound and many viable options are possible. The age 65 crowd is not trying to do the right thing concerning discrimination. The age 65 crowd is trying to simply create a windfall for themselves.

APAAD is not concerned about age 65 passing for another four years. Paul Emens needs the near retirement pilots to retire, improve his seniority, and then force the rule change so he can sit on top for another five years.

The age 65 crowd is the most vial, selfish, self serving, discriminator type of pilot possible other than a scab. The age 65 pilot wants what they want regardless of safety, discrimination, or ICAO policy.

The age 65 crowd will not compromise, we must not in support of age 60. Senator Inyofe has introduced the same bill Stevens did last year. The bill has no compromise or fairness in an age extension. Do not compromise the age 60 position the opposition is not willing to negotiate.

You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I am sure you don't know what your talking about and have very little airline experience regional pilot who must have started flying late in life.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I am sure you don't know what your talking about and have very little airline experience regional pilot who must have started flying late in life.

You state that you know the motivation of everyone that is pro change. It is obvious that you do not. There are intelligent arguments on both sides of this issue. When you go into the ditch with name-calling those who disagree with you, you lose most, if not all credibility on the issue.

 

[warbirdfinder]

Joe Schmo wrote:

Obviously a more expierenced pilot should be compensated better, but maybe collectively both young and old pilots of this country might want work together to force a bill that would set a standard minimum and maximum salary for pilots in conjunction with the age 65 rule.
This would mean that those age 60 pilots would be afforded another 5 years to work, however at a reduced salary. The surplus would then go to bottom so that new airline pilots just starting out would not be compensated less than the indusrty based minimum.

Are you smoking that bad stuff from Nogalas?