Please Help Pilots Stuck In Brazil

[WabiSabi]

ALAP is actually going to ask their membership to walk off flights, bang in sick, or otherwise flatly refuse to fly a trip that's going to Brazil? What about trips that traverse Brazil? What about crews already in the country?

Why must ALPA subject passengers to this type of treatment for their own political adjenda?

Can't wait to see how sucessful that is.

"Their own political agenda"??

That's horse$hit. This has absolutely nothing to do ALPA's political agenda. This is about freeing 2 pilots being unlawfully held as prisoners.

 

[ultrarunner]

"Their own political agenda"??

That's horse$hit. This has absolutely nothing to do ALPA's political agenda. This is about freeing 2 pilots being unlawfully held as prisoners.

Ahh...I wasn't aware that ALPA was an expert in Brazilian law.

I'll tune in CNN tonight and see how many flights to Brazil are cancelled because the pilots walked off the plane....

 

[WabiSabi]

Ahh...I wasn't aware that ALPA was an expert in Brazilian law.

I'll tune in CNN tonight and see how many flights to Brazil are cancelled because the pilots walked off the plane....

Being that ALPA is a union that happens to represent airline pilots, I'm sure their legal resources in regard to international law and air commerce are little more developed than yours.:smash:

I must say that opinions from the peanut gallery are often entertaining.

 

[ultrarunner]

Being that ALPA is a union that happens to represent airline pilots, I'm sure their legal resources in regard to international law and air commerce are little more developed than yours.:smash:

I must say that opinions from the peanut gallery are often entertaining.

Ok, I'll bite. Send me the source which shows the ruling indicating they are being held illegally.

 

[WabiSabi]

Ok, I'll bite. Send me the source which shows the ruling indicating they are being held illegally.

It's not my job to educate you. Educate yourself. I'll give you a hint as to a suggested starting point. Try "habeas corpus" and "extradition treaties".

Try this LINK

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, so thanks for the lesson. And assuming this captivity falls under the International System, what makes you think ALPA can exert pressure in light of the fact that it would appear the US Government has taken a back seat?

 

[WabiSabi]

Ok, so thanks for the lesson. And assuming this captivity falls under the International System, what makes you think ALPA can exert pressure in light of the fact that it would appear the US Government has taken a back seat?

Being that they're US citizens and that Brazil is a signatory on on many applicable treaties, this falls under the "International System".

ALPA has already been exerting pressure. As for how effective they are, it remains to be seen. Remember, there is an aviation subcommittee and ALPA is a regular. I don't know how this will be resolved. However, I do think that justice will ultimately prevail.

 

[FlickerFade]

You have forgotten that our country started with a thing called a r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n. Last time I checked, criticism and scrutiny are part of the process of a revolution. Our country's constitution is based on checks and balances....between branches of government, in a democratic republic, constituents...hell, the Constitution is built on the fact that it is flawed and that is why it has built in provisions to change it! This all means "criticism" is part of the process.

What is truly not inventive and unpatriotic is your blindly toeing the line and marching in lock step with the administration's reckless and blubbering disregard for civil liberties and and the fact that we are a global citizen. Sonny, wrapping a flag around your head is not patriotism. Why don't you read the Constitution?

If my opinions line up with some of what Hugo Chavez has to say, so be it. When it comes to unjustly and immorally detaining folks without cause then dang right I'm going to criticize....so should you (being that you're such the great patriot.)

Frou-frou, sanctimonious and lofty! :smash: No, this is not how the country was built. Thomas Jefferson would be laughing now. You should brush up on your US history before you speak on the subject again. Until then, just fly the plane.

Talk about bizarro world....sheesh!

What would Thomas Jefferson be “laughing for”? The fact that his slaves weren’t with him? This father of do as I say not as I do liberalism lived an opulent lifestyle that even the back breaking labor of his farm working slaves couldn’t support. He died in a grave that he couldn’t even afford to be dug and couldn’t afford to free his slaves upon his death due to his massive debts (which he said he'd do). Monticello wasn’t even finished.



Thomas Jefferson was against centralized government, saw the future of this country as agrarian as opposed to industrial, and supported a VP (Burr) who murdered the most important founding father aside from Washington (yet more important in terms of creating the constitution and implementing it). How wrong can one man be? Shall I go on?

You picked the wrong war in the “r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n”. Those original patriots were fighting BRITISH, not subverting the AMERICAN government. Perhaps your hero’s are the 19th century foes of Abraham Lincoln from the south? You remember the CIVIL WAR? They more resemble your anti-American pals.

BACK to your original ill-conceived point: Do you fly internationally? I do a lot. Have you been to survival school for Naval Aviator’s? I have. These are both applicable because those of us out here flying to places with very backwards aviation systems don’t want to be in jeopardy like these poor souls in Brasil are. As a Navy pilot we were shown and taught the kind of treatment to expect if captured, based upon the experiences of real survivors of captivity. I tell you this: NOOONE would treat its prisoners better than the USA! Maybe if we go to war with Britain, Ireland, most of the EU, that’s about it, we’d get equal treatment. That leaves most of the countries on this planet that we would get no Geneva convention, a possible kangaroo court trial, but REAL torture, possible beheading, or hanging. That’s the reality dude.

Given these facts of the real world, to use the treatment of prisoners in GIT’MO to justify the imprisonment of these two Americans is flawed logic. We capture guys on the battlefield and are held by the military and run through that system, one upheld throughout the history of this country. It’s different from the protection that American citizens and foreigners get in our normal justice system.



We are fighting an enemy that laughs in the face of guys like you trying to show more respect to them than our own President. That’s why I see you as part of the problem.

 

[Lear70]

A lot of good stuff in there, but one thing does jump out at me:

You picked the wrong war in the “r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n”. Those original patriots were fighting BRITISH, not subverting the AMERICAN government.

That's not entirely accurate, he picked a fairly apt comparison, if ill-timed.

Take a moment and reflect how those subjects loyal to the crown during this war might have felt about our 'patriots'.

When they spoke up as this person did here on Flightinfo, I'm certain those loyal to the British made similar arguments as you, calling them traitors, accused them of undermining their own government, etc.

I'm not saying the guy is trying to start a revolution, and most everything else you posted is spot-on. Just remember that it is VERY healthy to question our government, its motives, its actions, its leaders, and also to call them out on their B.S.

We are fighting an enemy that laughs in the face of guys like you trying to show more respect to them than our own President. That’s why I see you as part of the problem.

No doubt about our enemies (plural). But he's only a part of the problem if he openly CAUSES dissent. He can voice his concerns, thanks to our wonderfully amendable constitution, and that's his right to do so.

 

[FlickerFade]

I agree Lear70 with most of what you just wrote.

My objection is that the dissent has grown to the point that those in fiercest opposition to this President are actually now rooting against the US. And they are US citizens!

To be a patriot one has to be in favor of their country at least 51% of the time, don't they?

 

[WabiSabi]

What would Thomas Jefferson be “laughing for”? The fact that his slaves weren’t with him? This father of do as I say not as I do liberalism lived an opulent lifestyle that even the back breaking labor of his farm working slaves couldn’t support. He died in a grave that he couldn’t even afford to be dug and couldn’t afford to free his slaves upon his death due to his massive debts (which he said he'd do). Monticello wasn’t even finished.



Thomas Jefferson was against centralized government, saw the future of this country as agrarian as opposed to industrial, and supported a VP (Burr) who murdered the most important founding father aside from Washington (yet more important in terms of creating the constitution and implementing it). How wrong can one man be? Shall I go on?

You picked the wrong war in the “r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n”. Those original patriots were fighting BRITISH, not subverting the AMERICAN government. Perhaps your hero’s are the 19th century foes of Abraham Lincoln from the south? You remember the CIVIL WAR? They more resemble your anti-American pals.

BACK to your original ill-conceived point: Do you fly internationally? I do a lot. Have you been to survival school for Naval Aviator’s? I have. These are both applicable because those of us out here flying to places with very backwards aviation systems don’t want to be in jeopardy like these poor souls in Brasil are. As a Navy pilot we were shown and taught the kind of treatment to expect if captured, based upon the experiences of real survivors of captivity. I tell you this: NOOONE would treat its prisoners better than the USA! Maybe if we go to war with Britain, Ireland, most of the EU, that’s about it, we’d get equal treatment. That leaves most of the countries on this planet that we would get no Geneva convention, a possible kangaroo court trial, but REAL torture, possible beheading, or hanging. That’s the reality dude.

Given these facts of the real world, to use the treatment of prisoners in GIT’MO to justify the imprisonment of these two Americans is flawed logic. We capture guys on the battlefield and are held by the military and run through that system, one upheld throughout the history of this country. It’s different from the protection that American citizens and foreigners get in our normal justice system.



We are fighting an enemy that laughs in the face of guys like you trying to show more respect to them than our own President. That’s why I see you as part of the problem.

You're way off. You obviously have some red white and blue chip on your shoulder involving some preconceived political agenda. I have a wake up call for you. If an opinion isn't in line with yours, it doesn't mean it is anti American. Where did you get that one? Rush Limbaugh? What trite mindless drivel.

I gave you a factual reference to a report on detainees (treatment AS WELL as the overwhelming number released because they were unjustly detained) in GITMO and all you do is come back with some specious and sanctimonious America can do no wrong nonsense. Now THAT is anti-American. You want to talk about flawed logic? When you can logically dispute the referenced report as well as my original point that our unjust detention of the majority of detainees at GITMO has an adverse effect on how other countries treat detained/imprisoned US citizens, then we'll talk. Until then, I'll ignore you. (it would help if you had a better grasp on history)

Judging from your words so far, I'm way more pro-America than you.

 

[FlickerFade]

I think that we each have made our points.

And since you're "way more American" than me, how can me and my Navy Officer self ever compete with that?!

I really hope that you fly a lot internationally and are subject to the dangerous precedent this Brazilian case could set. Because it would be pretty sad if you are playing hypothetical with us actually flying around the globe.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

You must understand that once in a foreign country, you are subject to THEIR local laws and to their judicial process. Especially when lives have been lost. There is not much the US Government or Unions can legally do (I speak as an ALPA Investigator) because they are under the juridiction of another country and being investigated in a possible case of negligence and manslaughter.

Sure there is a lot we can do.

Close the embassies and send them home.
stop air travel to and from Brazil.
Stop their imports at the port for "inspection"

That's the easy stuff.

How about freezing Brazilian assets in the U.S.
Cancel their foreign ownership rights and force them to sell their U.S. assets.


If they are unlikely to get jail time, as you say, why are they being held with bail? That is no excuse for Brazil holding them hostage. It's BS and you should know it.

What YOU need to understand is once in an international environment, governments are subject to all kinds of diplomatic, political, and economic pressure by other governments.

But you can keep on as another institutionalized tolerator (lover?) of Brazilian bureacracy and incarceration. Enjoy your comfy bed and uninterrupted life.

 

[cactusboy53]

There was the same appeal on our union web board. One pilot responded that these two pilots were now back in the USA. Any confirmation?? Thanks.

 

[ACWild]

Congratulations! Looks like they made it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061205/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane_crash