Please Help Pilots Stuck In Brazil

[Lance Uppercut]

Wait a second, wait a second...

Wasn't that you? Or did you just get a labotomy or grow half a brain in the last 48-72 hours?

Did you get a rhinoplasty and get that kock removed from your face?:beer:

 

[Lear70]

This is a tough game, but knowing what I know having lived in Brazil for a couple of years and knowing their mindset, I believe they will be free to go soon.

I certainly hope so.

Hopefully in time for Christmas with their families...

And actually no, I don't remember much about the Varig 254 case, but I'll take your word for it. My volunteer union duties were more contract compliance and communications. I didn't get into the accident investigation stuff, I don't have enough emotional detachment to handle it I think, my hat's off to you guys!

 

[WabiSabi]

Yes, you so boldly take on the criticism constantly played in the major media of this country and the leaders of every country not friendly to this. What you say isn't inventive or patriotic. When did patriotism become CRITICIZING your country?, that's a bizarro world. This country was built by those who have had a higher belief that the US is doing things right.

To get back to the subject of your initial post: we aren't perfect, no one is claiming us to be BUT; we do justice better than anyone else. Our protections of human rights are easily superior to Brasil's. And to seek THAT type of comparison (of we have no right to talk) to somehow justify the arrest of our fellow pilots is the worst kind of moral relativism.

Your criticism puts you in the vocal majority who get most of the public air time.. It doesn't take any courage to stand with the heard an "moo" in unison with them. There is a quieter majority in this country that still believes in defending it and thankfully we have a strong leader in the White House who is one of them.

Why don't you stand up and look around? See who is saying the same things as you are (Hugo Chavez as an example) and decide if that's who you really want to be aligned with.

You have forgotten that our country started with a thing called a r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n. Last time I checked, criticism and scrutiny are part of the process of a revolution. Our country's constitution is based on checks and balances....between branches of government, in a democratic republic, constituents...hell, the Constitution is built on the fact that it is flawed and that is why it has built in provisions to change it! This all means "criticism" is part of the process.

What is truly not inventive and unpatriotic is your blindly toeing the line and marching in lock step with the administration's reckless and blubbering disregard for civil liberties and and the fact that we are a global citizen. Sonny, wrapping a flag around your head is not patriotism. Why don't you read the Constitution?

If my opinions line up with some of what Hugo Chavez has to say, so be it. When it comes to unjustly and immorally detaining folks without cause then dang right I'm going to criticize....so should you (being that you're such the great patriot.)

This country was built by those who have had a higher belief that the US is doing things right.

Frou-frou, sanctimonious and lofty! :smash: No, this is not how the country was built. Thomas Jefferson would be laughing now. You should brush up on your US history before you speak on the subject again. Until then, just fly the plane.

Talk about bizarro world....sheesh!

 

[Weasil]

Altitude Problem Cited in Brazil Crash

Altitude Problem Cited in Brazil Crash
By MICHAEL ASTOR
Associated Press Writer

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (AP) -- Air traffic controllers believed an executive jet was flying at a lower altitude when it collided with a commercial airliner over the Amazon, killing 154 people in the country's worst air disaster, Brazil's air force commander told a Senate committee Tuesday.
Brig. Gen. Luiz Carlos da Silva Bueno said flight controllers believed the plane was flying at 36,000 feet, although it was actually at 37,000 feet - the same altitude at which Gol Airlines flight 1907 was flying.
Transcripts suggest that air traffic controllers at another tower may have authorized the executive jet to fly at 37,000 feet, which would mean the two towers suffered a communications breakdown.
The Sept. 29 midair collision sent the Gol plane plunging into dense Amazon rain forest, killing all 154 aboard. The executive jet landed safely with all seven people aboard unharmed.
The controller in charge "didn't have a shadow of a doubt that the plane was at 360," Bueno told the committee, using the air-traffic term for 36,000 feet.
Transcripts indicate that the Embraer Legacy jet may have been authorized by the tower in Sao Jose dos Campos to fly at 37,000 feet to the Amazon city of Manaus, although its original flight plan had it making that portion of the flight at a different altitude.
"At departure air traffic control cleared the Legacy to Manaus at 37,000 feet," said Robert Torricella, a lawyer for ExcelAire, which owns the Legacy. "Absent a contrary clearance by air traffic control, the Legacy was required to remain at that altitude."
The Legacy's two American pilots had their passports seized shortly after the crash and have been waiting for prosecutors to decide whether to charge them with involuntary manslaughter. The pilots deny any wrongdoing.

 

[Lear70]

One step closer... like I said, they'll break it to the Brazilian people slowly and in bits and pieces so that there isn't a big public outcry over the ATC error.

Thanks for the update, Weasil !

 

[Longhorn]

Lance......knock off the name calling. If you have something useful to say then great but if all your going to do is unsult other members you can do it somewhere else.

LH

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Click here: The wreck and the reckoning - Sunday Times - Times Online

MUST READ!!

 

[B190Captain]

I have written both US senators from my state!! Lets do what we can to get them home!!

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Everyone please continue to help by writing your elected officials. You can use the link below to send a letter to all your local Senators and Congresspersons.

Click here: NBAA Call to Action


Yesterday Senior ALPA officials met with the State Department. Today ALPA Executive Vice President Chris Lynch (Continental) is presenting a resolution at the ALPA Executive Council meeting to have all ALPA carriers who fly to Brazil to encourage their pilots not to fly to Brazil until these union brothers and fellow aviators are returned home safely

 

[ultrarunner]

Today ALPA Executive Vice President Chris Lynch (Continental) is presenting a resolution at the ALPA Executive Council meeting to have all ALPA carriers who fly to Brazil to encourage their pilots not to fly to Brazil until these union brothers and fellow aviators are returned home safely

ALAP is actually going to ask their membership to walk off flights, bang in sick, or otherwise flatly refuse to fly a trip that's going to Brazil? What about trips that traverse Brazil? What about crews already in the country?

Why must ALPA subject passengers to this type of treatment for their own political adjenda?

Can't wait to see how sucessful that is.

 

[WabiSabi]

ALAP is actually going to ask their membership to walk off flights, bang in sick, or otherwise flatly refuse to fly a trip that's going to Brazil? What about trips that traverse Brazil? What about crews already in the country?

Why must ALPA subject passengers to this type of treatment for their own political adjenda?

Can't wait to see how sucessful that is.

"Their own political agenda"??

That's horse$hit. This has absolutely nothing to do ALPA's political agenda. This is about freeing 2 pilots being unlawfully held as prisoners.

 

[ultrarunner]

"Their own political agenda"??

That's horse$hit. This has absolutely nothing to do ALPA's political agenda. This is about freeing 2 pilots being unlawfully held as prisoners.

Ahh...I wasn't aware that ALPA was an expert in Brazilian law.

I'll tune in CNN tonight and see how many flights to Brazil are cancelled because the pilots walked off the plane....

 

[WabiSabi]

Ahh...I wasn't aware that ALPA was an expert in Brazilian law.

I'll tune in CNN tonight and see how many flights to Brazil are cancelled because the pilots walked off the plane....

Being that ALPA is a union that happens to represent airline pilots, I'm sure their legal resources in regard to international law and air commerce are little more developed than yours.:smash:

I must say that opinions from the peanut gallery are often entertaining.

 

[ultrarunner]

Being that ALPA is a union that happens to represent airline pilots, I'm sure their legal resources in regard to international law and air commerce are little more developed than yours.:smash:

I must say that opinions from the peanut gallery are often entertaining.

Ok, I'll bite. Send me the source which shows the ruling indicating they are being held illegally.

 

[WabiSabi]

Ok, I'll bite. Send me the source which shows the ruling indicating they are being held illegally.

It's not my job to educate you. Educate yourself. I'll give you a hint as to a suggested starting point. Try "habeas corpus" and "extradition treaties".

Try this LINK

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, so thanks for the lesson. And assuming this captivity falls under the International System, what makes you think ALPA can exert pressure in light of the fact that it would appear the US Government has taken a back seat?

 

[WabiSabi]

Ok, so thanks for the lesson. And assuming this captivity falls under the International System, what makes you think ALPA can exert pressure in light of the fact that it would appear the US Government has taken a back seat?

Being that they're US citizens and that Brazil is a signatory on on many applicable treaties, this falls under the "International System".

ALPA has already been exerting pressure. As for how effective they are, it remains to be seen. Remember, there is an aviation subcommittee and ALPA is a regular. I don't know how this will be resolved. However, I do think that justice will ultimately prevail.

 

[FlickerFade]

You have forgotten that our country started with a thing called a r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n. Last time I checked, criticism and scrutiny are part of the process of a revolution. Our country's constitution is based on checks and balances....between branches of government, in a democratic republic, constituents...hell, the Constitution is built on the fact that it is flawed and that is why it has built in provisions to change it! This all means "criticism" is part of the process.

What is truly not inventive and unpatriotic is your blindly toeing the line and marching in lock step with the administration's reckless and blubbering disregard for civil liberties and and the fact that we are a global citizen. Sonny, wrapping a flag around your head is not patriotism. Why don't you read the Constitution?

If my opinions line up with some of what Hugo Chavez has to say, so be it. When it comes to unjustly and immorally detaining folks without cause then dang right I'm going to criticize....so should you (being that you're such the great patriot.)

Frou-frou, sanctimonious and lofty! :smash: No, this is not how the country was built. Thomas Jefferson would be laughing now. You should brush up on your US history before you speak on the subject again. Until then, just fly the plane.

Talk about bizarro world....sheesh!

What would Thomas Jefferson be “laughing for”? The fact that his slaves weren’t with him? This father of do as I say not as I do liberalism lived an opulent lifestyle that even the back breaking labor of his farm working slaves couldn’t support. He died in a grave that he couldn’t even afford to be dug and couldn’t afford to free his slaves upon his death due to his massive debts (which he said he'd do). Monticello wasn’t even finished.



Thomas Jefferson was against centralized government, saw the future of this country as agrarian as opposed to industrial, and supported a VP (Burr) who murdered the most important founding father aside from Washington (yet more important in terms of creating the constitution and implementing it). How wrong can one man be? Shall I go on?

You picked the wrong war in the “r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n”. Those original patriots were fighting BRITISH, not subverting the AMERICAN government. Perhaps your hero’s are the 19th century foes of Abraham Lincoln from the south? You remember the CIVIL WAR? They more resemble your anti-American pals.

BACK to your original ill-conceived point: Do you fly internationally? I do a lot. Have you been to survival school for Naval Aviator’s? I have. These are both applicable because those of us out here flying to places with very backwards aviation systems don’t want to be in jeopardy like these poor souls in Brasil are. As a Navy pilot we were shown and taught the kind of treatment to expect if captured, based upon the experiences of real survivors of captivity. I tell you this: NOOONE would treat its prisoners better than the USA! Maybe if we go to war with Britain, Ireland, most of the EU, that’s about it, we’d get equal treatment. That leaves most of the countries on this planet that we would get no Geneva convention, a possible kangaroo court trial, but REAL torture, possible beheading, or hanging. That’s the reality dude.

Given these facts of the real world, to use the treatment of prisoners in GIT’MO to justify the imprisonment of these two Americans is flawed logic. We capture guys on the battlefield and are held by the military and run through that system, one upheld throughout the history of this country. It’s different from the protection that American citizens and foreigners get in our normal justice system.



We are fighting an enemy that laughs in the face of guys like you trying to show more respect to them than our own President. That’s why I see you as part of the problem.

 

[Lear70]

A lot of good stuff in there, but one thing does jump out at me:

You picked the wrong war in the “r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n”. Those original patriots were fighting BRITISH, not subverting the AMERICAN government.

That's not entirely accurate, he picked a fairly apt comparison, if ill-timed.

Take a moment and reflect how those subjects loyal to the crown during this war might have felt about our 'patriots'.

When they spoke up as this person did here on Flightinfo, I'm certain those loyal to the British made similar arguments as you, calling them traitors, accused them of undermining their own government, etc.

I'm not saying the guy is trying to start a revolution, and most everything else you posted is spot-on. Just remember that it is VERY healthy to question our government, its motives, its actions, its leaders, and also to call them out on their B.S.

We are fighting an enemy that laughs in the face of guys like you trying to show more respect to them than our own President. That’s why I see you as part of the problem.

No doubt about our enemies (plural). But he's only a part of the problem if he openly CAUSES dissent. He can voice his concerns, thanks to our wonderfully amendable constitution, and that's his right to do so.

 

[FlickerFade]

I agree Lear70 with most of what you just wrote.

My objection is that the dissent has grown to the point that those in fiercest opposition to this President are actually now rooting against the US. And they are US citizens!

To be a patriot one has to be in favor of their country at least 51% of the time, don't they?