Please Help Pilots Stuck In Brazil

[ils2minimums]

I know I'm gonna get torched, but those guys need to be held accountable. They should be in a jail cell, and not in a hotel. If you were a family member of one of the victims you guys would be singing a different tune.

Held accountable for what, exactly? Following ATC instructions? For their superior airmanship in landing an aircraft that had just collided with one nearly 3 times it's size?

The currently known facts of this incident seem to lay the blame on the Brazilian ATC.

I'm sure if it was your brother or friend being held, YOU'D be singing a different tune.

 

[JCJ]

Why was their xponder off?

Superior airmanship? YGBSM. Is that what involuntary muders what to be called now? Shees!

I wondered when the clown would show up in this thread.

There has to be a fair amount of airline service into Brazil - any chance of a boycott of Brazilian flights by all of the pilot unions until this is resolved?

 

[Lear70]

I know I'm gonna get torched, but those guys need to be held accountable. They should be in a jail cell, and not in a hotel. If you were a family member of one of the victims you guys would be singing a different tune.

No, you won't get torched too badly because:

a.) We know this is flamebait.

b.) We know your statement above to be a complete and gross ignorance of established FACTS of the accident.

c.) You have absolutely ZERO credibility behind making such an assertion without stating PROOF that you are either an NTSB official who has been given every single document to examine as evidence (unlikely if you are posting here) OR you are a member of the Brazilian government empowered to make such a statement (again, highly unlikely).

So, since you can't BACK UP your assertions with PROOF of either criminal intent on the part of the pilots or PROOF of criminally negligent behavior (and no, the accident itself isn't PROOF), you will be ignored by the vast majority of us who understand how assinine your statement is.

Have a great day, Crusty...

 

[ils2minimums]

Why was their xponder off?

Superior airmanship? YGBSM. Is that what involuntary muders what to be called now? Shees!

says the guy who forgot how much time he has and with "most" ratings...:laugh:

 

[JCJ]

Nice summary of recent events at AvWeb (free registration required)

http://www.avweb.com/

 

[Lance Uppercut]

No, you won't get torched too badly because:

a.) We know this is flamebait.

I knew some idiot would come out with line. Again I'm entittled to my opinion.

Okay Sherlock, you were in the jumpseat huh? I'm glad you know all the facts.


Have a good day Yeasty...

 

[Lear70]

I knew some idiot would come out with line. Again I'm entittled to my opinion.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. If you based it on FACT, someone might actually listen to you.

Okay Sherlock, you were in the jumpseat huh? I'm glad you know all the facts.

Just as you were in the jumpseat and can call these guys criminals and go out and pull the trigger of the gun that executes them for your "alleged" crime? Based on what FACTS, Mr. Judge, jury, and executioner?

I DO know all the FACTS that have been released thus far by the Brazilian government and involved aviation authorities. ALL of those FACTS point to a breakdown in ATC communication and possible equipment malfunction (transponder). Those FACTS do NOT point to pilot error, much LESS criminal negligence or deliberate intent.

So, AGAIN, if you have any FACTS that state otherwise, present them. Otherwise, have a nice hot cup of STFU.

Have a good day Yeasty...[/quote]
Yeasty? Nice try UpperCRUST... we all know it's you, it's OK you paid the $10 bucks to come back.

 

[JCJ]

...Again I'm entittled to my opinion....

Yes you are

regardless of how stupid it is.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Why was their xponder off?

Superior airmanship? YGBSM. Is that what involuntary muders what to be called now? Shees!

Lance I have very accurate information on this accident as several people I am working with to get these pilots home have spoken to both Joe and Jan at length.

The transponder wasn't turned off it failed. I have flowned several new boeing aircraft within weeks of being certifed to line operations. I can't tell you how many times many systems are broken due to bugs of a new aircaft. Brazilan controllers have tesitifed they knew the transponder wasn't working for almost an hour prior to the accident and never notified the flight crew.

Lastly even if this accident was the fault of the Legecy pilots which I am confident it wasn't but for argument sake lets say it is human error on the part of the Legacy pilots that caused this terrible tragedy. Are you saying pilots should be criminally responsible for accidents caused by unintentional human error?

 

[FlickerFade]

Well, no. Do you know how many detainees have been released from Gitmo? The answer is plenty.....some were held after 3 or 4 years when it was finally decided that they were holding these people without cause. LINKY Are you suggesting that we are @ war with innocents?

I wasn't justifying Brazil detaining the 2 pilots. I said nothing of the sort. Your inference is from your own preconceived notions because of whatever political agenda you might have.

As a country, we can't pay lip service against unjustly detaining people and not expect scrutiny when we do/did it ourselves. The current gov't was warned about this yet in all of their hubris and self-righteousness, they ignored the warnings. A rose is a rose and hypocrisy is hypocrisy....no matter what your political beliefs.

It is absolutely a good point and it still stands.

P.S. Perhaps you should cut down on Fox News a bit.

Perhaps you should have more faith in your country than its enemies. You speak just as the enemies of the USA do. You are playing into their propaganda machine. Why don't you put some patriotism above YOUR political agenda.

 

[WabiSabi]

Perhaps you should have more faith in your country than its enemies. You speak just as the enemies of the USA do. You are playing into their propaganda machine. Why don't you put some patriotism above YOUR political agenda.

A true patriot is not one that puts blind faith in the gov't (as you obviously have). You say that I speak as our enemies, as if any scrutiny, or even dissent is somehow unpatriotic. You're certainly not qualified (by your own demonstration of your lack of understanding) to make that assessment. If you applied anything about our country's history, you would see that it is built on scrutiny. You sound like Bush and his "if you're not with us, you're against us" rhetoric.

Continue with your emotional based patriotism, I'll stick with the logic base and the real world.

 

[FlickerFade]

Yes, you so boldly take on the criticism constantly played in the major media of this country and the leaders of every country not friendly to this. What you say isn't inventive or patriotic. When did patriotism become CRITICIZING your country?, that's a bizarro world. This country was built by those who have had a higher belief that the US is doing things right.

To get back to the subject of your initial post: we aren't perfect, no one is claiming us to be BUT; we do justice better than anyone else. Our protections of human rights are easily superior to Brasil's. And to seek THAT type of comparison (of we have no right to talk) to somehow justify the arrest of our fellow pilots is the worst kind of moral relativism.

Your criticism puts you in the vocal majority who get most of the public air time.. It doesn't take any courage to stand with the heard an "moo" in unison with them. There is a quieter majority in this country that still believes in defending it and thankfully we have a strong leader in the White House who is one of them.

Why don't you stand up and look around? See who is saying the same things as you are (Hugo Chavez as an example) and decide if that's who you really want to be aligned with.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Lance I have very accurate information on this accident as several people I am working with to get these pilots home have spoken to both Joe and Jan at length.

Hope those guys come out on top.


Lastly even if this accident was the fault of the Legecy pilots which I am confident it wasn't but for argument sake lets say it is human error on the part of the Legacy pilots that caused this terrible tragedy. Are you saying pilots should be criminally responsible for accidents caused by unintentional human error?

It's a no win situation. They are lucky that they are just in a hotel room, and not a criminal detention center.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

So, AGAIN, if you have any FACTS that state otherwise, present them. Otherwise, have a nice hot cup of STFU.


Who died and made you Queen. You want a FACT?


FACT: Lear70 is TOOL and thinks his $h!t dont stink!

 

[Lear70]

So, AGAIN, if you have any FACTS that state otherwise, present them. Otherwise, have a nice hot cup of STFU.

Who died and made you Queen. You want a FACT?

FACT: Lear70 is TOOL and thinks his $h!t dont stink!

Suuurrrrre.

Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.

Kind of amusing that no one else agreed with you, but then again, that just makes everyone ELSE wrong, now doesn't it? I'm sure that's what you're thinking right about now.

It's not about me, it's about THOSE PILOTS BEING ILLEGALLY HELD BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, and about THE TRUTH.

Sorry that's not convenient for you...

 

[BrazPilot]

Suuurrrrre.

Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.

Kind of amusing that no one else agreed with you, but then again, that just makes everyone ELSE wrong, now doesn't it? I'm sure that's what you're thinking right about now.

It's not about me, it's about THOSE PILOTS BEING ILLEGALLY HELD BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, and about THE TRUTH.

Sorry that's not convenient for you...

While I do not agree with their detention in Brazil, it is incorrect to say they are being illegally held. You must understand that once in a foreign country, you are subject to THEIR local laws and to their judicial process. Especially when lives have been lost. There is not much the US Government or Unions can legally do (I speak as an ALPA Investigator) because they are under the juridiction of another country and being investigated in a possible case of negligence and manslaughter. Read what it says on Page 3 of your US Passport under "Foreign Laws".
I totally agree that it is taking too long for the pilots to be released, but once again they might not do things exactly like us and are not required to do so (in the case of a criminal investigation). They must conduct the accident investigation by ICAO Annex 13 standards, and I understand that they are doing so, but may also conduct their own criminal case their fashion by use of their own law enforcement.
Being detained is a risk one takes by travelling overseas. Try wearing a crusifix in Saudi Arabia or a seeing what happens when foreigner walks around downtown drinking beer in any US city. I remember three Norwegian collegues, years ago, going to jail because they had just arrived in the States (South Carolina) and didn't know it was against the law to drink in public, as they did while walking from a 7/11 to their newly rented apartment. It was a rude "Welcome to America" for them.

 

[Lear70]

While I do not agree with their detention in Brazil, it is incorrect to say they are being illegally held.

According to their legal counsel who is based in and is fluent with Brasilian law, they ARE being illegally held and the judge's ruling and confiscation of their passports is being challenged (appealed).

I totally agree that it is taking too long for the pilots to be released, but once again they might not do things exactly like us and are not required to do so (in the case of a criminal investigation).

That's the problem, they haven't been charged, they are simply being HELD until "the investigation is complete" (half a year? A YEAR?). Under their own law, as disclosed in press releases by their attorney, that isn't legal. ESPECIALLY if the country has extradition rights with the home country of the person(s) being held, which they DO.

They're using these guys to try to appease the public (can you imagine the uproar if they were released now that the Brasilian media has already publically tried and convicted these guys?) and draw attention away from their own ATC shortcomings until emotions aren't running quite so high and they can avoid the national outrage that would ensue if ATC was found to be the primary cause.

They must conduct the accident investigation by ICAO Annex 13 standards, and I understand that they are doing so, but may also conduct their own criminal case their fashion by use of their own law enforcement.

Absolutely; the problem is that their own investigation is leading them further and further away from placing any criminal blame on the pilots, they have ALL the data that proves it, and they're still CHOOSING to detain them.

Being detained is a risk one takes by travelling overseas. Try wearing a crusifix in Saudi Arabia or a seeing what happens when foreigner walks around downtown drinking beer in any US city. I remember three Norwegian collegues, years ago, going to jail because they had just arrived in the States (South Carolina) and didn't know it was against the law to drink in public, as they did while walking from a 7/11 to their newly rented apartment. It was a rude "Welcome to America" for them.

Granted, you take a risk when you fly overseas, but those are poor comparisons. In both cases you would likely be fined and released within hours or a few days. Certainly in the U.S. those guys would make bail within 24 hours and walk back to their apartments.

I'm quite certain the U.S. wouldn't be detaining Brasilian pilots involved in an accident in such a fashion (I agree, the Gitmo parallel is a poor one). I'm not certain if there is a precedent with a foreign crew involved in an accident costing U.S. loss of life and living to face investigation...? I would bet money they'd be here a week or two and be on their way back to their home country with an extradition agreement if new data was discovered.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Suuurrrrre.

Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.

Kind of amusing that no one else agreed with you, but then again, that just makes everyone ELSE wrong, now doesn't it? I'm sure that's what you're thinking right about now.

It's not about me, it's about THOSE PILOTS BEING ILLEGALLY HELD BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, and about THE TRUTH.

Sorry that's not convenient for you...

So it's amussing that nobody agrees with me??? Your an idiot. Just because I stated something doesn't mean every or one mother f*ck*r has to agree with me. Congratulations Queer70, everyone agrees with you. You must be amussed. I doubt you know all the Brazilian law. Cuz I sure dont. How 'bout let things playout, and hope those guys come home safe.

 

[Lear70]

How 'bout let things playout, and hope those guys come home safe.

Wait a second, wait a second...

Didn't you just say a day or two ago that these guys were guilty of killing a bunch of people and were lucky they weren't faring WORSE?

Wasn't that you? Or did you just get a labotomy or grow half a brain in the last 48-72 hours?

 

[BrazPilot]

According to their legal counsel who is based in and is fluent with Brasilian law, they ARE being illegally held and the judge's ruling and confiscation of their passports is being challenged (appealed).

I understand your point. But their counsel, a Brazilian ex-Justice Minister, is just a lawyer trying to do his job and one way to get the mess fixed is claiming illegality. It already been to the courts, rejected and like you said is currently being appealed.
This is a tough game, but knowing what I know having lived in Brazil for a couple of years and knowing their mindset, I believe they will be free to go soon. The judicial system is very burocratic and slow, and there are different parties that are claiming to "own" the investigation. Eventually, they'll get it right. One thing is for sure... they will NOT go to jail. If you recall the Varig 254 accident case where several passangers were killed due to proven pilot negligence, both were sentenced to time in jail, but due to being "first time convictions", "good conduct and cooperative", college graduates, among other things had only to serve community service, besided having their certificates pulled. But in the end, they were free to go.