Please Help Pilots Stuck In Brazil

[BrazPilot]

Suuurrrrre.

Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.

Kind of amusing that no one else agreed with you, but then again, that just makes everyone ELSE wrong, now doesn't it? I'm sure that's what you're thinking right about now.

It's not about me, it's about THOSE PILOTS BEING ILLEGALLY HELD BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, and about THE TRUTH.

Sorry that's not convenient for you...

While I do not agree with their detention in Brazil, it is incorrect to say they are being illegally held. You must understand that once in a foreign country, you are subject to THEIR local laws and to their judicial process. Especially when lives have been lost. There is not much the US Government or Unions can legally do (I speak as an ALPA Investigator) because they are under the juridiction of another country and being investigated in a possible case of negligence and manslaughter. Read what it says on Page 3 of your US Passport under "Foreign Laws".
I totally agree that it is taking too long for the pilots to be released, but once again they might not do things exactly like us and are not required to do so (in the case of a criminal investigation). They must conduct the accident investigation by ICAO Annex 13 standards, and I understand that they are doing so, but may also conduct their own criminal case their fashion by use of their own law enforcement.
Being detained is a risk one takes by travelling overseas. Try wearing a crusifix in Saudi Arabia or a seeing what happens when foreigner walks around downtown drinking beer in any US city. I remember three Norwegian collegues, years ago, going to jail because they had just arrived in the States (South Carolina) and didn't know it was against the law to drink in public, as they did while walking from a 7/11 to their newly rented apartment. It was a rude "Welcome to America" for them.

 

[Lear70]

While I do not agree with their detention in Brazil, it is incorrect to say they are being illegally held.

According to their legal counsel who is based in and is fluent with Brasilian law, they ARE being illegally held and the judge's ruling and confiscation of their passports is being challenged (appealed).

I totally agree that it is taking too long for the pilots to be released, but once again they might not do things exactly like us and are not required to do so (in the case of a criminal investigation).

That's the problem, they haven't been charged, they are simply being HELD until "the investigation is complete" (half a year? A YEAR?). Under their own law, as disclosed in press releases by their attorney, that isn't legal. ESPECIALLY if the country has extradition rights with the home country of the person(s) being held, which they DO.

They're using these guys to try to appease the public (can you imagine the uproar if they were released now that the Brasilian media has already publically tried and convicted these guys?) and draw attention away from their own ATC shortcomings until emotions aren't running quite so high and they can avoid the national outrage that would ensue if ATC was found to be the primary cause.

They must conduct the accident investigation by ICAO Annex 13 standards, and I understand that they are doing so, but may also conduct their own criminal case their fashion by use of their own law enforcement.

Absolutely; the problem is that their own investigation is leading them further and further away from placing any criminal blame on the pilots, they have ALL the data that proves it, and they're still CHOOSING to detain them.

Being detained is a risk one takes by travelling overseas. Try wearing a crusifix in Saudi Arabia or a seeing what happens when foreigner walks around downtown drinking beer in any US city. I remember three Norwegian collegues, years ago, going to jail because they had just arrived in the States (South Carolina) and didn't know it was against the law to drink in public, as they did while walking from a 7/11 to their newly rented apartment. It was a rude "Welcome to America" for them.

Granted, you take a risk when you fly overseas, but those are poor comparisons. In both cases you would likely be fined and released within hours or a few days. Certainly in the U.S. those guys would make bail within 24 hours and walk back to their apartments.

I'm quite certain the U.S. wouldn't be detaining Brasilian pilots involved in an accident in such a fashion (I agree, the Gitmo parallel is a poor one). I'm not certain if there is a precedent with a foreign crew involved in an accident costing U.S. loss of life and living to face investigation...? I would bet money they'd be here a week or two and be on their way back to their home country with an extradition agreement if new data was discovered.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Suuurrrrre.

Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.

Kind of amusing that no one else agreed with you, but then again, that just makes everyone ELSE wrong, now doesn't it? I'm sure that's what you're thinking right about now.

It's not about me, it's about THOSE PILOTS BEING ILLEGALLY HELD BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, and about THE TRUTH.

Sorry that's not convenient for you...

So it's amussing that nobody agrees with me??? Your an idiot. Just because I stated something doesn't mean every or one mother f*ck*r has to agree with me. Congratulations Queer70, everyone agrees with you. You must be amussed. I doubt you know all the Brazilian law. Cuz I sure dont. How 'bout let things playout, and hope those guys come home safe.

 

[Lear70]

How 'bout let things playout, and hope those guys come home safe.

Wait a second, wait a second...

Didn't you just say a day or two ago that these guys were guilty of killing a bunch of people and were lucky they weren't faring WORSE?

Wasn't that you? Or did you just get a labotomy or grow half a brain in the last 48-72 hours?

 

[BrazPilot]

According to their legal counsel who is based in and is fluent with Brasilian law, they ARE being illegally held and the judge's ruling and confiscation of their passports is being challenged (appealed).

I understand your point. But their counsel, a Brazilian ex-Justice Minister, is just a lawyer trying to do his job and one way to get the mess fixed is claiming illegality. It already been to the courts, rejected and like you said is currently being appealed.
This is a tough game, but knowing what I know having lived in Brazil for a couple of years and knowing their mindset, I believe they will be free to go soon. The judicial system is very burocratic and slow, and there are different parties that are claiming to "own" the investigation. Eventually, they'll get it right. One thing is for sure... they will NOT go to jail. If you recall the Varig 254 accident case where several passangers were killed due to proven pilot negligence, both were sentenced to time in jail, but due to being "first time convictions", "good conduct and cooperative", college graduates, among other things had only to serve community service, besided having their certificates pulled. But in the end, they were free to go.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Wait a second, wait a second...

Wasn't that you? Or did you just get a labotomy or grow half a brain in the last 48-72 hours?

Did you get a rhinoplasty and get that kock removed from your face?:beer:

 

[Lear70]

This is a tough game, but knowing what I know having lived in Brazil for a couple of years and knowing their mindset, I believe they will be free to go soon.

I certainly hope so.

Hopefully in time for Christmas with their families...

And actually no, I don't remember much about the Varig 254 case, but I'll take your word for it. My volunteer union duties were more contract compliance and communications. I didn't get into the accident investigation stuff, I don't have enough emotional detachment to handle it I think, my hat's off to you guys!

 

[WabiSabi]

Yes, you so boldly take on the criticism constantly played in the major media of this country and the leaders of every country not friendly to this. What you say isn't inventive or patriotic. When did patriotism become CRITICIZING your country?, that's a bizarro world. This country was built by those who have had a higher belief that the US is doing things right.

To get back to the subject of your initial post: we aren't perfect, no one is claiming us to be BUT; we do justice better than anyone else. Our protections of human rights are easily superior to Brasil's. And to seek THAT type of comparison (of we have no right to talk) to somehow justify the arrest of our fellow pilots is the worst kind of moral relativism.

Your criticism puts you in the vocal majority who get most of the public air time.. It doesn't take any courage to stand with the heard an "moo" in unison with them. There is a quieter majority in this country that still believes in defending it and thankfully we have a strong leader in the White House who is one of them.

Why don't you stand up and look around? See who is saying the same things as you are (Hugo Chavez as an example) and decide if that's who you really want to be aligned with.

You have forgotten that our country started with a thing called a r-e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n. Last time I checked, criticism and scrutiny are part of the process of a revolution. Our country's constitution is based on checks and balances....between branches of government, in a democratic republic, constituents...hell, the Constitution is built on the fact that it is flawed and that is why it has built in provisions to change it! This all means "criticism" is part of the process.

What is truly not inventive and unpatriotic is your blindly toeing the line and marching in lock step with the administration's reckless and blubbering disregard for civil liberties and and the fact that we are a global citizen. Sonny, wrapping a flag around your head is not patriotism. Why don't you read the Constitution?

If my opinions line up with some of what Hugo Chavez has to say, so be it. When it comes to unjustly and immorally detaining folks without cause then dang right I'm going to criticize....so should you (being that you're such the great patriot.)

This country was built by those who have had a higher belief that the US is doing things right.

Frou-frou, sanctimonious and lofty! :smash: No, this is not how the country was built. Thomas Jefferson would be laughing now. You should brush up on your US history before you speak on the subject again. Until then, just fly the plane.

Talk about bizarro world....sheesh!

 

[Weasil]

Altitude Problem Cited in Brazil Crash

Altitude Problem Cited in Brazil Crash
By MICHAEL ASTOR
Associated Press Writer

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (AP) -- Air traffic controllers believed an executive jet was flying at a lower altitude when it collided with a commercial airliner over the Amazon, killing 154 people in the country's worst air disaster, Brazil's air force commander told a Senate committee Tuesday.
Brig. Gen. Luiz Carlos da Silva Bueno said flight controllers believed the plane was flying at 36,000 feet, although it was actually at 37,000 feet - the same altitude at which Gol Airlines flight 1907 was flying.
Transcripts suggest that air traffic controllers at another tower may have authorized the executive jet to fly at 37,000 feet, which would mean the two towers suffered a communications breakdown.
The Sept. 29 midair collision sent the Gol plane plunging into dense Amazon rain forest, killing all 154 aboard. The executive jet landed safely with all seven people aboard unharmed.
The controller in charge "didn't have a shadow of a doubt that the plane was at 360," Bueno told the committee, using the air-traffic term for 36,000 feet.
Transcripts indicate that the Embraer Legacy jet may have been authorized by the tower in Sao Jose dos Campos to fly at 37,000 feet to the Amazon city of Manaus, although its original flight plan had it making that portion of the flight at a different altitude.
"At departure air traffic control cleared the Legacy to Manaus at 37,000 feet," said Robert Torricella, a lawyer for ExcelAire, which owns the Legacy. "Absent a contrary clearance by air traffic control, the Legacy was required to remain at that altitude."
The Legacy's two American pilots had their passports seized shortly after the crash and have been waiting for prosecutors to decide whether to charge them with involuntary manslaughter. The pilots deny any wrongdoing.

 

[Lear70]

One step closer... like I said, they'll break it to the Brazilian people slowly and in bits and pieces so that there isn't a big public outcry over the ATC error.

Thanks for the update, Weasil !

 

[Longhorn]

Lance......knock off the name calling. If you have something useful to say then great but if all your going to do is unsult other members you can do it somewhere else.

LH

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Click here: The wreck and the reckoning - Sunday Times - Times Online

MUST READ!!

 

[B190Captain]

I have written both US senators from my state!! Lets do what we can to get them home!!

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Everyone please continue to help by writing your elected officials. You can use the link below to send a letter to all your local Senators and Congresspersons.

Click here: NBAA Call to Action


Yesterday Senior ALPA officials met with the State Department. Today ALPA Executive Vice President Chris Lynch (Continental) is presenting a resolution at the ALPA Executive Council meeting to have all ALPA carriers who fly to Brazil to encourage their pilots not to fly to Brazil until these union brothers and fellow aviators are returned home safely

 

[ultrarunner]

Today ALPA Executive Vice President Chris Lynch (Continental) is presenting a resolution at the ALPA Executive Council meeting to have all ALPA carriers who fly to Brazil to encourage their pilots not to fly to Brazil until these union brothers and fellow aviators are returned home safely

ALAP is actually going to ask their membership to walk off flights, bang in sick, or otherwise flatly refuse to fly a trip that's going to Brazil? What about trips that traverse Brazil? What about crews already in the country?

Why must ALPA subject passengers to this type of treatment for their own political adjenda?

Can't wait to see how sucessful that is.