Skywest: Confessions Of A Kool-Aid Drinker

[bayoubandit]

Short answer... It would give SKW pilots a say in the sen. integration when it happens.

 

[pilotbrain]

Does this mean that if we wanted, ASA would be stapled?? I think this would be wrong but I believe a lot of us, at skywest could lose our seniority. This seems like it would be a big ugly mess.

 

[737 Pylt]

Does this mean that if we wanted, ASA would be stapled?? I think this would be wrong but I believe a lot of us, at skywest could lose our seniority. This seems like it would be a big ugly mess.

Don't you work for ho jets??

737

 

[pilotbrain]

737 pilot,

No I dont...seem to have to keep answering this Q.....I have friends at GJ and I have no problem with them.....really dont want to get into the bashing and name calling anymore.

 

[737 Pylt]

737 pilot,

No I dont...seem to have to keep answering this Q.....I have friends at GJ and I have no problem with them.....really dont want to get into the bashing and name calling anymore.

Fair enough, it was just a question! But I wouldn't admit on a public forum that you have "friends" at ho jets!

737

 

[bayoubandit]

Does this mean that if we wanted, ASA would be stapled?? I think this would be wrong but I believe a lot of us, at skywest could lose our seniority. This seems like it would be a big ugly mess.

Well would you rather SGU dictate what they think is best. It's going to be a mess anyways. And no, it would not mean they would be stapled.

 

[pilotbrain]

No, I wouldn't....but I am happy with my little niche in the world and would hate to think I could end up commuting because I lose seniority....guess Im being selfish and shouldn't be concerned with such things.

 

[bayoubandit]

That's just the reality of the airline biz. The guys in Yuma were happy in their little world too, but reality set in. I'm sure the ASA DFW guys were happy too. Working for any airline, especially a contract airline is going to have unpleasantries.

 

[bobbyice]

I think auspac summed up the feelings of the majority of SKW pilots in his eloquent post. I've only been here just over 2 years, so I don't know much, admittedly, but I have yet to hear an argument that puts me over the top (except for mckpickle, with his persuasive points). I will say this however...stories of management doing everything in their power to save the careers of pilots who make mistakes are true. Hell, I know a guy who failed a drug test and still has a job here (after giving up his seniority). The bottom line for me is...what's going to happen if our friends at ACEY strike? Will they try to force us to fly struck work? I live in Atlanta. I'd LOVE to be based here, but not at the expense of ASA pilots.

 

[rtmcfi]

If JA wants to sell the company to JO tomorrow, i have no control over that. It may happen tomorrow, it may never happen at all.I believe this airline treats their employees, customers, vendors much better than the JO's little project.

Should JA do the unthinkable, would OOs current agreement be in force? A real contract would be....

 

[Gr82Aviate]

No, I wouldn't....but I am happy with my little niche in the world and would hate to think I could end up commuting because I lose seniority....guess Im being selfish and shouldn't be concerned with such things.

I hate to burst your bubble but we had lots of crewmembers happy with their "little niche in the world" in Paso Robles, Bakersfield, Yuma, Pocatello, and even St. George before those domiciles were all closed...you should be concerned with such things!

 

[bender]

Should JA do the unthinkable, would OOs current agreement be in force? A real contract would be....

We can take all of ALPAs fear-based scenarios to an extreme here. Instead of thinking of all the worst case scenarios without a contract, you should look at the 34 year history of how SKW treats its employees. Make your decision based on current facts and past history...

Have you ever noticed that every single person in management save one has put in 20+ years at the company?

 

[atrdriver]

Have you ever noticed that every single person in management save one has put in 20+ years at the company?

So how much longer before they retire and new management come into being? JA won't be there forever, no matter how much you wish for it.

 

[bayoubandit]

We can take all of ALPAs fear-based scenarios to an extreme here. Instead of thinking of all the worst case scenarios without a contract, you should look at the 34 year history of how SKW treats its employees. Make your decision based on current facts and past history...

Have you ever noticed that every single person in management save one has put in 20+ years at the company?

Just look at the change in the last 4 years. It's not the same airline as it was and it will not be the same as it is now in the future. Mgmt. has protected themselves nicely. Why are the pilots so afraid to stand up for themselves?

 

[Weasil]

As a new guy at SkyW I was at the Candlewood the other day. Interestingly enough those guys/gals talking about how great ALPA is had to change the subject when i asked them how ALPA helped Mesaba pilots with company declaring Ch.11 even though Mesaba was profitable.

Release #06.MSA9
October 3, 2006
Mesaba Employees Propose Plan to Save Airline
Pilots, Flight Attendants and Mechanics Present Joint Proposal to Management; Only Remaining Issue is Level of Profitability
MINNEAPOLIS – Labor unions representing pilots, flight attendants, and mechanics at bankrupt Mesaba Airlines today presented airline management with an unprecedented joint offer to save their airline, their jobs, and their contracts.
“Mesaba has over sixty years of pride as a ‘Hometown Airline,’ with great people, great service, and an impeccable safety and performance record. By attacking labor, and using the court system to impose unnecessarily severe cuts in wages and benefits, management is destroying Mesaba,” states Capt. Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, International. “The employees built this airline, and we are doing our best to save it.”
The Mesaba Labor Coalition has offered wage, work rule and benefit concessions that will cut labor costs by 15% for the next three years. Because airline contracts do not terminate, the savings will continue well beyond that term. If Mesaba agrees to the proposal, the unions would begin a ratification process immediately.
Mesaba will not only be able to reorganize and exit successfully from bankruptcy with the level of cuts offered by the unions, but it would also achieve profit margins that substantially exceed those of previous years. Mesaba proposes to cut labor costs so that it can achieve an 8% profit margin. The coalition plan will enable Mesaba to produce at least a 6% margin. In recent years, profit margins have dwindled to just 2-3%.
“We are not talking about the difference between Mesaba being in the red or the black anymore,” said Nathan Winch, a mechanic and Mesaba Airline Representative for the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. “The Coalition’s proposal guarantees that labor is giving enough to make Mesaba profitable. We say a 6% profit margin is sufficient, and if management is going to liquidate over another point or two on the margin, there is nothing we can do.”

If Mesaba elects to throw out the labor contracts, the unions intend to strike, which would end service to cities that rely on Mesaba as their only airline transportation. The unions may strike when Mesaba stops adhering to the terms of their contracts. In the wake of Mesaba’s announcement that it intends to impose new terms on October 15, the unions strongly urge the traveling public to take steps to avoid travel on Northwest Airlink on and after that date.
“Going on strike is the last resort,” said Tim Evenson, President of the Association of Flight Attendants unit at Mesaba, “because we would rather provide the same exceptional service that Mesaba is known for day in and day out. But, we will not work for wages that qualify our members for food stamps. Mesaba should not be permitted to exploit the bankruptcy process to require the government to supplement our earnings. No citizen of this country should have to bear that burden, especially while our holding company harbors millions of dollars in profits earned by Mesaba in previous years.”

Those who use Southwest as a pro-ALPA argument are not 100% correct either because Southwest was built on great employee/employer relationships. The union didn't take part on something that they already had.

Southwest is NOT ALPA.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Release #06.MSA9
October 3, 2006
Mesaba Employees Propose Plan to Save Airline
Pilots, Flight Attendants and Mechanics Present Joint Proposal to Management; Only Remaining Issue is Level of Profitability
MINNEAPOLIS – Labor unions representing pilots, flight attendants, and mechanics at bankrupt Mesaba Airlines today presented airline management with an unprecedented joint offer to save their airline, their jobs, and their contracts.
“Mesaba has over sixty years of pride as a ‘Hometown Airline,’ with great people, great service, and an impeccable safety and performance record. By attacking labor, and using the court system to impose unnecessarily severe cuts in wages and benefits, management is destroying Mesaba,” states Capt. Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, International. “The employees built this airline, and we are doing our best to save it.”
The Mesaba Labor Coalition has offered wage, work rule and benefit concessions that will cut labor costs by 15% for the next three years. Because airline contracts do not terminate, the savings will continue well beyond that term. If Mesaba agrees to the proposal, the unions would begin a ratification process immediately.
Mesaba will not only be able to reorganize and exit successfully from bankruptcy with the level of cuts offered by the unions, but it would also achieve profit margins that substantially exceed those of previous years. Mesaba proposes to cut labor costs so that it can achieve an 8% profit margin. The coalition plan will enable Mesaba to produce at least a 6% margin. In recent years, profit margins have dwindled to just 2-3%.
“We are not talking about the difference between Mesaba being in the red or the black anymore,” said Nathan Winch, a mechanic and Mesaba Airline Representative for the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. “The Coalition’s proposal guarantees that labor is giving enough to make Mesaba profitable. We say a 6% profit margin is sufficient, and if management is going to liquidate over another point or two on the margin, there is nothing we can do.”

If Mesaba elects to throw out the labor contracts, the unions intend to strike, which would end service to cities that rely on Mesaba as their only airline transportation. The unions may strike when Mesaba stops adhering to the terms of their contracts. In the wake of Mesaba’s announcement that it intends to impose new terms on October 15, the unions strongly urge the traveling public to take steps to avoid travel on Northwest Airlink on and after that date.
“Going on strike is the last resort,” said Tim Evenson, President of the Association of Flight Attendants unit at Mesaba, “because we would rather provide the same exceptional service that Mesaba is known for day in and day out. But, we will not work for wages that qualify our members for food stamps. Mesaba should not be permitted to exploit the bankruptcy process to require the government to supplement our earnings. No citizen of this country should have to bear that burden, especially while our holding company harbors millions of dollars in profits earned by Mesaba in previous years.”

Southwest is NOT ALPA.

I know WN is not ALPA, but it has the union representation. My argument was against the union representation, not just ALPA. Also anytime in the history that employees tried to save the airline, it went bad for them. (Ask UAL guys/gals about their ESOP)

Now, if ALPA was working on issues that would REALLY save this industry, such as a single seniority list, than I'd go for it. Their fights have been fought for so many years without logical/practical basis.

As you can see Mesaba is still giving concessions.. Why do you think the airline went ahead and declared Ch.11? That IS the "I can do what I want" card that any management can play these days. No MATTER WHAT!!!

That's the source of the problem these days... This will sound too polical for you but at the time of this president there will be no airline strikes; AND no airline management will go to the oil companies and pull the tricks that they are pulling on the labor for high fuel costs..

In last 10 years airlines reduced their costs dramatically. The most prominent one has been with the distribution costs, like selling more direct tickets to customer. Compared to 10 years ago now most of the airlines sell their tickets more online than any other means.

What we are facing as labor is the rush to the new entrants with the hopes of getting better inhouse seniority. That's why AirTrans and JetBlues are more attractive than some other airline. That's also why the new entrants are able to undercut majors; low cost of fresh employer body.

After UAL, and now DL the race to the bottom of the cost is going on..
One thing that DL should learn from UAL experience that lowest cost doesn't necessarily mean the best service. Yes, your lower cost may look good on the paper, but there are many untengible factors affecting the contractor's performance, like happy work force.

If you asked UAL which one they would be happier with (SkyW vs. Mesa) I am sure everybody would know the answer.

I think SkyW is going to grow. Do we need better work rules and better wages? I wouldn't mind getting a buck or two per hour BUT I am glad that i am not in a place that pays me by the flight hour, instead of the block time.

At the same time, if you know a think or two about game theory, it takes only one bottom fisher to ruin it for others.. Look at how scope cause (no hets higher than 50 seats), that was supposed to protect major flying was out of the door few years later..

 

[limpyoke]

ALPA by-laws require that if one ALPA carrier purchases another and the pilot groups are integrated, a fair and equitable integration must take place. Yea right!!

Skywest pilots need a different union than ALPA to represent them in a possible intergration of the seniority lists.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Don't you work for ho jets??

737

You are correct, in several previous posts he "claimed" to work for ho jets...now he's "claiming" to be a Skyw pilot. Getting caught lying and then denying!

 

[pilot05]

You will never have it perfect. The pilot group will never be totally content. Skywest appears to be towards the top of this steaming pile of an industry. All for free. Why toss it away and then take a 2% paycut?

Kiss your current company culture good bye. Management would have no choice but to open up the mesa playbook and run. Game on. The potential cost would be too high for the company if they didn't.

A lot of airlines need unions. Like mesa. And what is mesa's result? The proof is in the pudding. However, they can tell people they are part of the underpaid boys club. Great. I'm sure your wife and kids sleep better in the trailer knowing dad has an alpo sticker on his flight kit.

I would wait... as long as you can. Perhaps consider something like southwest's union down the road, if need be.

 

[atrdriver]

As you can see Mesaba is still giving concessions.. Why do you think the airline went ahead and declared Ch.11? That IS the "I can do what I want" card that any management can play these days. No MATTER WHAT!!!

No, BK is not an "I can do whatever I want card". They still have to go through the 1113c process to void a labor contract, which is actually very rarely given by BK courts.

 

[imacdog]

A lot of airlines need unions. Like mesa. And what is mesa's result? The proof is in the pudding. However, they can tell people they are part of the underpaid boys club. Great. I'm sure your wife and kids sleep better in the trailer knowing dad has an alpo sticker on his flight kit.

Well, Mesa does make more flying the 900s than Skywest.

 

[rickair7777]

Well, Mesa does make more flying the 900s than Skywest.

Total BS, you are either lying to support alpa (I'm starting to see a trend here actually) or grossly uninformed. Mesa's hourly rate is meaningless, because they do not get paid for most of their duty time. You could come to work to do 2 PHX-TUS turns with a 4 hour sit and get paid 1:20. If your block is scheduled at 00:30, that is what you get paid, even if your block-block is 5 hours.

Delays? No Pay
Scheduled Sit: No Pay
Wx Canx: No Pay
Mx Canx: You should get paid, but this will be re-coded as Wx: No Pay
Duty Time: No Pay
30 hour Overnight: No Pay

 

[imacdog]

You are absolutely correct about work rules affecting pay. However, Mesa does have higher hourly wages on the 900 than Skywest. I believe their contract is up for negotiation soon, and you can expect them to raise all their pay rates, as well as better their work rules, when the new contract is settled. This time around, they don't have an alter-ego to worry about, and I support them in working for a better contract.

 

[Magneto]

Why are people so naive to think that the only way to look at compensation is by the hourly rate. I am a second year fo at SkyWest and will gross over 60K this year. My rate on the 700/900 may be lower but I bet most f.o.'s at SkyWest make more than f.o.'s at Mesa BECAUSE OF OUR RIGS/GUARANTEES. Is it that hard to understand?

Secondly, I am sure it was covered in this thread but I couldn't find it. Is it true that my 2% towards ALPA does not cover medical loss coverage? If so, how much more does it cost? If that is true I can guarantee that will be a big blow towards the fence sitters at SkyWest.

 

[imacdog]

No, not hard to understand at all, in fact I explained my understanding of work rules in my previous post. However, the Mesa pilots are about to improve their situation. What can the pilots of Skywest do to improve theirs? Skywest is experiencing extremely rapid growth and the pilots have no opportunity to improve their lives, unless management feels like doing so.

 

[SuperKooter]

Why are people so naive to think that the only way to look at compensation is by the hourly rate. I am a second year fo at SkyWest and will gross over 60K this year. My rate on the 700/900 may be lower but I bet most f.o.'s at SkyWest make more than f.o.'s at Mesa BECAUSE OF OUR RIGS/GUARANTEES. Is it that hard to understand?

Secondly, I am sure it was covered in this thread but I couldn't find it. Is it true that my 2% towards ALPA does not cover medical loss coverage? If so, how much more does it cost? If that is true I can guarantee that will be a big blow towards the fence sitters at SkyWest.

That 2% is just the base. You do get a free pin and a Magazine for that. Its a big conn, especially at the regional level.

If I can give you some advice Magneto, inform your skywest pilots about alpa. Talk to some of the ASA pilots who have jumped ship, but whatever you do don't belive those conartists who are trying to bring alpa on-board. They think the grass is greener on the otherside.

 

[sweptback]

Secondly, I am sure it was covered in this thread but I couldn't find it. Is it true that my 2% towards ALPA does not cover medical loss coverage? If so, how much more does it cost? If that is true I can guarantee that will be a big blow towards the fence sitters at SkyWest.

Depends on what you mean by medical loss coverage. The 2% gives you access to ALPA Aeromedical if you need to utilize their services to help get your medical back.

The 2% does not give you loss of license insurance. It is extra, although ALPA picks it up the first year for probationary guys (who don't pay dues, by the way). Just like with about any other insurance, it is pretty cheap for the younger guys, then once you get to be about 35+ it really starts getting expensive.

I personally carry both the company LOL insurance ($1.25/paycheck) and the ALPA LOL insurance (I think it's on the order of $100/year, can't remember exact numbers). As others have mentioned before, the ALPA LOL insurance covers you if you cannot fly yet can perform other jobs. It is basically a lump sum payout to pursue other career training. The company LOL insurance (ASA's is the only one I have experience with) will only pay out if you cannot perform any job, period.

 

[CFIT]

Honest question, if another carrier goes on strike do all the other members have their dues increased to pay for it? If so, how much or how does it work?

 

[rickair7777]

No, not hard to understand at all, in fact I explained my understanding of work rules in my previous post. However, the Mesa pilots are about to improve their situation. What can the pilots of Skywest do to improve theirs? Skywest is experiencing extremely rapid growth and the pilots have no opportunity to improve their lives, unless management feels like doing so.

I too believed that mesa pilots would improve their lot in life...but a number of factors changed my mind...

The new MEC (which we were cautiously optomistic about) appears to be less than bold in confronting the company, even though management has within the last year declared all-out war on pilot QOL...that was where I got off that train, but by all accounts things are only getting worse.

Combined with a weak MEC and the threat of furloughs (due to loss of a Go! or a major partner) management will be able to fare better than some might think.

Even if some progress is made it will likely take at least 4 years...JO knows he is not going to get a more favorable terms than the ones he has now, so why allow a new contract any sooner than necessary? After years of brutal negotiations and probably furloughs, I expect mesa will still be near the bottom (I wasn't going to wait that long to find out).

Many mesa pilots are young/inexperienced and are susceptible to management doom & gloom threats...the ONLY positive about mesa is the fast upgrade, threaten to take that away and who knows what some of those people will be willing to give up...

I am certainly hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.

 

[Magneto]

Depends on what you mean by medical loss coverage. The 2% gives you access to ALPA Aeromedical if you need to utilize their services to help get your medical back.

The 2% does not give you loss of license insurance. It is extra, although ALPA picks it up the first year for probationary guys (who don't pay dues, by the way). Just like with about any other insurance, it is pretty cheap for the younger guys, then once you get to be about 35+ it really starts getting expensive.

I personally carry both the company LOL insurance ($1.25/paycheck) and the ALPA LOL insurance (I think it's on the order of $100/year, can't remember exact numbers). As others have mentioned before, the ALPA LOL insurance covers you if you cannot fly yet can perform other jobs. It is basically a lump sum payout to pursue other career training. The company LOL insurance (ASA's is the only one I have experience with) will only pay out if you cannot perform any job, period.

So as I understand it, if I lose my license for whatever reason and can't get it back then this LOL insurance will pay out a lump sum to cover training for another field.

Now if I get violated by the Feds and they come after my license then I will have the legal backing of ALPA at no additional charge. Furthermore, if I have any problems with my health and need help getting my medical back then I will have the assistance of ALPA aeromedical at no additional charge.

Thanks for any clarifications.