Comair Pilots Drew the Line

[Gobi Gred]

YourPilotFriend, SkyWest has been in business for over 34 years. Hardly a new airline.

 

[Popeye0537]

YourPilotFriend, SkyWest has been in business for over 34 years. Hardly a new airline.

CHQ is 32 goin on 33....

How is Comair too old?? Just how old are ya

 

[AvroJockey]

All you guys who keep raising the flag of "one list" need to shut up.
It will NEVER happen and it just serves to make pilots look like whining idiots. Do you realize you’re basically advocating for the most failed form of government man has ever devised?!
Oh but maybe you are right; we could all be on one list and demand $250k for every FO, and $350 for every CA. Then ALL the: doctors, firemen nurses, police, accountants, construction workers, mailmen et cetera could form a union and each demand a 100% pay increase. Better yet we could just print up a bunch of extra $$$ and make every one in the USA millionaires. Then every-one could be happy and have lots of money and not have to work again.

Dogtown, that was my first skateboard...imp:

Anyway, your agrument to maintain the status quo is backed by nothing in your post. Tell me why the maintenance of multiple seniority lists is good for the whole profession...please elaborate! I don't want hear an excuse of "It will never happen!"

Hear is my evidence:

1 seniority list = ALPA the opportuinity to control the supply of it's labor resource = an increase in the median price of labor = higher wage rates through microeconomics.

If we (ALPA) continue down the same road, our real wages (wages adjusted for inflation) will continue to decrease, this is fact!!! It's been happening for decades!

Are you (ALPA, and the individual) willing to change for the betterment of the whole pilot group, or are you happy with the status quo? It all comes down to this simple question!!!

 

[pgcfii2002]

Yes, but there will be a line of SJS kids right behind you begging for jobs at Comair....for 22% less than what you make now.

 

[8HourPilot]

Incorrect.

Yet they're one of the lowest paid in the FO seat.

 

[bvt1151]

8Hour,

Take a look at Chautaqua's FO rates, and compare them to GoJet's. $1 difference.

Now take a look at Comair's, ExpressJet's, ASA's, Skywest's, Horizon's, and Air Wisconsin's.

At least you beat GoJets, though...by $1.

 

[dogtown]

Dogtown, that was my first skateboard...imp:

Anyway, your agrument to maintain the status quo is backed by nothing in your post. Tell me why the maintenance of multiple seniority lists is good for the whole profession...please elaborate! I don't want hear an excuse of "It will never happen!"

Hear is my evidence:

1 seniority list = ALPA the opportuinity to control the supply of it's labor resource = an increase in the median price of labor = higher wage rates through microeconomics.

If we (ALPA) continue down the same road, our real wages (wages adjusted for inflation) will continue to decrease, this is fact!!! It's been happening for decades!

Are you (ALPA, and the individual) willing to change for the betterment of the whole pilot group, or are you happy with the status quo? It all comes down to this simple question!!!

I didn’t make any argument for the status quo, I simply pointed out that “one list” is an absurd idea and tantamount to communism. Actually I think the current seniority based system ultimately hurts us as pilots; making it prohibitive for a pilot to go from one company to another and rewarding mediocrity rather than experience (well it does do that if you don’t ever change companies) hard work and skill. I’m don’t know what the alternative is however since there seems no way to get off this train, its hard to break from establishment.

 

[ballsdeep123]

The US Steel union operated with one list and it worked great. If you wanted to move cities all you did was report to the union shop boss with your seniority number and you got paid accordingly. It seemed to be very effective in controlling labor supply, which would help solve a lot of the problems we're having right now.

 

[ultrarunner]

The US Steel union operated with one list and it worked great.

Yeah, worked great....until the US steel business went tits-up!

You guys really haven't been following where unions are headed in the US, have you?

You should take a look at the stats, it's pretty scary...if you're a union-thumper.

 

[waterski45]

8Hour,

Take a look at Chautaqua's FO rates, and compare them to GoJet's. $1 difference.

Now take a look at Comair's, ExpressJet's, ASA's, Skywest's, Horizon's, and Air Wisconsin's.

At least you beat GoJets, though...by $1.

Yes, but it is much more than just payrates...GoJet is NOT block or better (not to mention other pay-related work rules such as trip and duty regs). Also look at GoJet's FO second year pay rates (one of their dirty little secrets).

 

[ex j-41]

Now if ALPA can come up with a pay scale nationwide there wouldn't be this undercutting. We should all join the Union, we work for the Union, and if the company needs pilots to fly airplanes they go to the Union. A pay scale needs to be set nationwide.

 

[ballsdeep123]

Now if ALPA can come up with a pay scale nationwide there wouldn't be this undercutting. We should all join the Union, we work for the Union, and if the company needs pilots to fly airplanes they go to the Union. A pay scale needs to be set nationwide.

That's basically how management justifies their raises. They look around the industry and they pay them based on job duties and experience, not on how long they've been with the company. Look at your CEO. Pilots should realize that we shouldn't be the group financing the companies growth to make management and stockholders rich.

 

[thebest]

Now...having alpa will help this? THEBEST

 

[sweptback]

Yes, but it is much more than just payrates...GoJet is NOT block or better (not to mention other pay-related work rules such as trip and duty regs). Also look at GoJet's FO second year pay rates (one of their dirty little secrets).

CHQ doesn't have many good work rules either. Their CNX pay is tied to some completion factor, isn't it? So every time your flight cancels you're less likely to get paid for it, brilliant. I also love the fact that you guys don't get lost block for VAC days or calling in sick. Actually, as I understand it, if you call in sick too much you don't even get a paid vacation because they share the same bank.

The FO payrates are ok for 50 seat, depressing for 70 seat, and downright criminal for 90 seat airplanes. But I guess that's alright cause everybody upgrades there in 2 years...

 

[ballsdeep123]

If we were all unionized, under one union, with one seniority list, then yes it should help that. In most other professions pay is based on experience not how long you have been at a certain company. For example, my dad is a computer program manager for a bank. When he lost his job due to "right" sizing he went to a loan company doing the same kind of work and is now making more money at his new company than he was making at the old one. In order to do that with pilots we all need to be under the same union with the same seniority number. It doesn't make sense for a pilot of 25 years to lose his job and have to start out making the same amount of money he made when he first started flying, just because his management made bad decisions.

 

[Nindiri]

How will you force a company to hire from this national seniority list?

 

[AvroJockey]

If we were all unionized, under one union, with one seniority list, then yes it should help that. In most other professions pay is based on experience not how long you have been at a certain company. For example, my dad is a computer program manager for a bank. When he lost his job due to "right" sizing he went to a loan company doing the same kind of work and is now making more money at his new company than he was making at the old one. In order to do that with pilots we all need to be under the same union with the same seniority number. It doesn't make sense for a pilot of 25 years to lose his job and have to start out making the same amount of money he made when he first started flying, just because his management made bad decisions.

Ballsdeep has caught on! The rest are still a little slow.

BTW, dogtown...using economics to your advantage is hardly communistic. In fact, controlling labor supply happens both ways, though it seems management is the only one that has fiqured it out. Why do you think all the puppy mills are sponsored by regional airlines? MANAGMENT IS CONTROLING PILOT LABOR SUPPLY, AND WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT! Otherwise your compensation will continue to decline. It's economic fact, and the only way to start controlling the supply is with a single senoirity list!

 

[hbrow15]

How will you force a company to hire from this national seniority list?

this has always been my question, if a xyz airline is looking to hire it would seem to me they would hire a guy at first year rates and not a guy have walk through the door at year 10 pay. how would upgrades work? could someone be a few month's away from upgrade be bumped by someone walking through the door last week? how would military pilots be worked in? if you went to American, Southwest UPS would you have to give up your senority # because at this point i'm sure they will not want to participate. I agree that what we have now has us handcuffed and a national list may eventually work but there is a much work to be done and it will not be a simple matter of date of hire and companies call Worth for a pilot.

 

[SennaP1]

Ballsdeep has caught on! The rest are still a little slow.

He wanted to compare the airlines to US Steel companies, how is that catching on? Unless you of course mean multiple bankruptcies, stolen pensions, lost jobs, made up promises.

No single seniority list will ever exist at the airlines, guaranteed...It all sounds good and looks good as a Flight Case sticker, but it won't happen.

 

[bvt1151]

When did we go from single contract rates to single seniority list? The logistics of a single list alone are a deal-breaker.

One contract for all regionals. One voice, one rate.

 

[SSDD]

How about, you can't start your commercial pilot training until you join ALPA???

 

[YourPilotFriend]

CHQ is 32 goin on 33....

How is Comair too old?? Just how old are ya

Old as in seniority.

 

[neflier]

How about, you can't start your commercial pilot training until you join ALPA???

A union telling a CFI what training they may give and the FAA what certificates they may issue? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[VeeOne]

Ok- Now that the Unionizing issue has been beaten to death in the same fashion as a single seniority list. How about back to the original title of the post.............

Now that all the bids have been submitted, does anyone know when the posting of the results will be posted and made public????

For the Freedom guys reading this, No offense, but I would sure like to see WAY less of your 145's in ATL! Something tells me that won't be the case though...........

 

[Turkey Shoot]

For the Freedom guys reading this, No offense, but I would sure like to see WAY less of your 145's in ATL! Something tells me that won't be the case though...........

Well, I'll say it then... All you A lister's, I do intend offense. The rest of you guys at Freedom, tough bad for you.

 

[mac36]

One list...the whipsaw ends.

One list, and most on this board are on the street.

 

[CallmeJB]

... multiple post

 

[CallmeJB]

Do you want a career?

One list, and most on this board are on the street.

Despite the logistical impossibilites of one list....

I'd rather be on the street 'waiting my turn', and let the mainline guy back into the seat. Better to be on the street now rather than 30 years from now.

...probably an unpopular opinion.

 

[BoilerUP]

...probably an unpopular opinion.

I've said before that I would much rather be on the very bottom of a legacy/mainline seniority list than nearly anywhere on a WO/contract carrier seniority list.

Time is on my side...for others, no so much.

 

[B727FA]

Of course you are. You'll get our aircraft.

Oh, yeah...that's the reason. It has nothing to do with supporting labor.