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Yuck. More propaganda for the uninformed

Jeff G

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Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, through its Aviation & Space Technology Academy (ASTA), is making it possible for a qualified individual to transition from aviation enthusiast to regional airline pilot in less than a year through its new accelerated First Officer Flight Training (FOFT) program.

The innovative 10-12-month course, which trains first officer candidates to regional airline and corporate fleet standards, gives candidates 550 hours of total flight experience and advanced jet simulator flight time, preparing them for positions as first officers with domestic regional airlines.

“We established this program to take advantage of opportunities created by an anticipated shortage of qualified pilots, unprecedented growth of the regional airline industry, and market demand in aviation,” says George Ebbs, president of Embry-Riddle. “It is a practical response to the needs of our industry.”

A recent Embry-Riddle survey shows that commercial aviation will need more than 11,000 new pilots by 2003, yet only slightly more than 7,500 qualified civilian and military pilots will enter the field that year. With plans by the Federal Aviation Administration to increase the capacity of the nation’s airports and airways by 30 percent, the pilot crunch will continue to be a problem for years to come.

What dreamworld are these people living in? There are thousands of pilots out of work, and they think a 550 hour pilot is going to take the industry by storm?
 

rumpletumbler

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Well.......I had a guy at ASA who was lets just say in the high teens there in pilot senority which I would think was fairly high up walk my resume in and I got a form letter 1200 hours etc. The next week I met a guy with less than 300 hours who was graduating from Riddle and had already started training on the EMB120 with ASA. He had already gone through the part where you and several classmates sit on the ground with the engines running for several hours whatever part that is. ASA was kind enough to send me a "kit" though from flight safety saying that if I wanted to give them $30,000 bucks I to could fly with someone for 6 weeks in various aircraft and then get an interview with ASA, ie.. FlightSafety would put in the "good word to the point of an interview I guess." My first thought was, "Wonder how much it would cost to buy a job being a brain surgeon?" Bet those guys get paid a lot. :)

RT
 

bobbysamd

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Riddle P-F-T

The innovative 10-12-month course, which trains first officer candidates to regional airline and corporate fleet standards, gives candidates 550 hours of total flight experience and advanced jet simulator flight time, preparing them for positions as first officers with domestic regional airlines.

(emphasis added)

I don't know exactly how to take that. 550 hours of training on top of what you might have? Or, zero to 550 hours. Do you also have to earn your B.S. at Riddle?

In any event, times must be tough for ERAU. It's sounds to me as if Riddle is getting into the (quasi-semi) P-F-T biz.
Interesting . . . is ERAU trying to compete with TAB Express down the road????

A recent Embry-Riddle survey shows that commercial aviation will need more than 11,000 new pilots by 2003, yet only slightly more than 7,500 qualified civilian and military pilots will enter the field that year. With plans by the Federal Aviation Administration to increase the capacity of the nation’s airports and airways by 30 percent, the pilot crunch will continue to be a problem for years to come.

I also like how ERAU has picked up the Kit Darby "pilot shortage" theme.

Hopefully, interested people will get plenty of advice on undoubtedly what will be an expensive program before signing up. Advice on the pilot "shortage," for one. Pros and cons of P-F-T for another.

And, the beat goes on . . . .
 
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BigFlyr

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There will always be a "shortage of qualified pilots" but first we have to define what the industry thinks a "qualified pilot" is...

Definition of Qualified Pilot:

One who has lofty aspirations of landing a dream job with the majors in just a few short years despite the current state of the industry and is willing to undermine the livleyhoods of other fellow pilots by entering into expensive intern-type training programs known as "ab-initio" whereby the candidate receives little or no compensation for his/her services as First Officer.

No physical qualifications required other than a pulse.

Those interested please call 1-800 Jet-Jock.
:rolleyes:
 

bart

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Another New One

I heard Flight Safety Has a new one called

First officer Underqualified Crash Kourse

Wonder what else they will come up with to part fools from their money?
 

AutoTransfer

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This will probably incite a riot, but I have to put in my $.02. Everyone that is hired by ANY airline and completes Initial training has paid their dues one way or another.

A Military Pilot gives many years of his/her life for relatively little pay to achieve the qualifications it takes to be hired by a major airline. To the people that have the ability, dedication and courage to complete this method I have nothing but the utmost respect.

The Flight Instructor who is hired by an airline has spent a lot of money and effort to complete their ratings and has followed that up with many grueling hours teaching our future aviators the craft for very little compensation. My hat goes off to these individuals as well.

The individual that has the dedication, ability and endurance, as well as the financial backing to complete an ab-initio program deserves no less respect from their fellow aviators or myself. These individuals are trained from day 1 using methodologies employed by the airlines to train their own recruits. The fact that their qualifications are accelerated by money does not detract from the fact that a significant amount of blood, sweat, and tears have been expended to meet the high standard required to pass a Part 121 Proficiency Check.

I get the feeling that most people believe that the persons that complete ab-initio training are wealthy individuals that buy their jobs. That may be true in a limited number of instances. The people that I know who have done this have sacrificed much in order to complete the program. Some examples are life savings, an excellent job, and separation from family to name a few. Take a minute before you judge and ask someone who has gone this route to tell you their story. You might be surprised at the sacrifice and dues paying that may have occurred to “fast track” their way to the airlines. BTW, I’ve seen the type that just wants to pay for a job. They usually don’t make it through primary training.

Ok, let’s hear it. I’ve got big shoulders.

P.S. For those that care (and I know some do) I was an ab-initio guy. Big Surprise, huh?
 

sabreliner

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Allow me to temper this response by saying that I've flown with a bunch of guys who were ab-initio grads, and most are really good guys whom I enjoy flying with...

AutoTransfer said:


The individual that has the dedication, ability and endurance, as well as the financial backing to complete an ab-initio program deserves no less respect from their fellow aviators or myself.

Umm...right.

Dedication is shown by the guys out there who have been furloughed, had their companies go out of business, etc. and who are still out there flying the line.

Ability is shown by the guy who flew single pilot IFR night in a beat up Baron hauling radioactive samples.

Endurance is shown by the guys who taught for 2 years and managed not to murder their students or get themselves killed.

The ab-initio guys are untested in all these arenas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience.

Then, I've flown with the same guys months later, and they have learned, and gained experience and are much more useful when things get rough.

My point isn't to attack ab-initio pilots, even though I'm not fond of those programs. It is simply to say that just because you made it through a 121 SIC Checkride, doesn't mean you are on the same level as someone in that same seat with a lot more experience before they got there. A 121 SIC ride isn't really very tough.

And, it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that you've paid your dues. Try telling that to the guy who taught me how to fly. It wouldn't get you very far.

Now, on to the original reason for my post. Some of those 300 hour guys that are refered to above as coming from Riddle, were interns for us. If the company liked them, many of them are invited to come and interview later. But, there are no guarantees for them.

The other low timers bought their job.

EVERYBODY else we are hiring right now have a lot of experience, most have prior 121 time. This is why you would have gotten a letter referencing the mins, while someone else may not have.


P.S. Those ab-initio pilots also missed one more thing. They missed all the fun you can have with GA. Even though it was tough, it was a lot of fun at times.
 
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bobbysamd

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P-F-T

AutoTransfer said:
The fact that their qualifications are accelerated by money does not detract from the fact that a significant amount of blood, sweat, and tears have been expended to meet the high standard required to pass a Part 121 Proficiency Check . . . . . I get the feeling that most people believe that the persons that complete ab-initio training are wealthy individuals that buy their jobs. That may be true in a limited number of instances. The people that I know who have done this have sacrificed much in order to complete the program. Some examples are life savings, an excellent job, and separation from family to name a few . . . .

(emphasis added)

Violins, anyone?

Good training should be tough. Arguing that you had to work hard and study a little to pass a training program will gain you no sympathy.

I've written my story so many times that I won't repeat it in full. I was over forty eleven years ago. I had changed careers and had built up my times and ratings through flight instructing to past the commuter quals of the day, which were 1500 total-500 multi - much higher than today (Realistically, 2500 total got you hired, but I had that, too.). I made sacrifices. I couldn't get a commuter job. Flight instructors who were way under forty were getting the few commuter jobs that could be had. P-F-T was starting up back then. Despite my quals, it became obvious to me that my only chance would be to pay my way in.

Don't tell me that P-F-T is a sacrifice. Notwithstanding the other bad things P-F-T symbolizes, it became apparent to me that money talks in this business. That was one reason why I got out. No job is worth buying.
 
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chperplt

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Jeff G

Could you provide a link or reference for that article? I would like to have the full copy so when ERAU sends me another letter asking for a Alumni donation, I can tell them why they can fu@K themselves.
 

Tim47SIP

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Experience!

"The ab-initio guys are untested in all these areas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience. "

First of all, this is no way a slam to anyone. I respect anyone that I am flying with with the exception of a very small unprofessional minority. These are just observations that I have personally seen. I can also state right up front that I am learning something new everytime I fly, and one thing is deffinitely certain, I don't know everything (nor can I spell)!


After watching these 300 hour wonders progress over the past couple of years, and watching the 1500 hour Capt's that were once a product of these programs, I can deffinitely see a trend. Several of the past incidents at my airline came from individual Capts that were once from a PFT program. Decision making skills are really never learned to there fullest potential. When a military, CFI, or Cargo etc. guy is out there flying outside the structured 121 operations, they learn a great deal about their environment. They get into situations that they have to make a decision to fix it. They constantly learn from these episodes. The 300 hour wonder has been in a closed structured envinronment his whole carrier and supervised from day one. He always is told what to do by virtue of a CFI, PC, Company profiles, dispatch, etc. These guys really get no oportunity to make their own decisions at least up untill they get their type and move to the left seat. Even then, they really arent subjected to the pressures of being on there own. But is that the time to start really learning? Real red light emergencies rarely happen, but combine a serious emergency with wx, com problems, new FO etc., you have a very oversaturated individual. The real problem here is when something happens outside the day to day norm. They tend to become very poor decision makers. Not all, but many that I know, PFT Cpts and FO's, are very impressed with their flying abilities. In other words, none of them has had a real down to earth emergency to let them know that they are not infallible. Most of the experienced single pilot and mil guys have learned to keep the aircraft out of any position that they would have to use their skills to get them out of it. They can stay way ahead of the aircraft and are able to see and hear things materializing ahead of them and be able to take action now to stop it. It wasn't if you were going to have an emergency, it was when you have and emergency!

I guess the whole point here is that I beleive many of these types of individuals need to realise is that experience is not bought, it is earned. They also need to realise their own experience base and do everything in their power to learn as much as they can. At least at my place of employment, the company has stopped taking these idividuals because of training problems. Not really sure if they have started up again, but who knows.
 
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DC8Driver

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"No job is worth buying" ....To you. Other people disagree and that is what is really cool about America. We are free to do what we want.

Doctors pay for training and work for years in an intern situation. What is the difference? Do what you must to get where you want to be.

I just got a job because I had a Citation type. The WIA paid for most of it. I paid the rest. Did I buy a job? You bet I did. Was it worth it. I'm flying a jet for a living. Are you?

Guess I think it's worth it. Would I have liked to get the job without any money out of pocket? yes. Is that the way things are now? No, and no amount of whinning about it will change it.
 

bobbysamd

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Doctors' training and WIA

There's a difference between doctors paying for med school and P-F-T. Med school is part of their schooling, just like getting your ratings at an FBO or FSI is part of our schooling. With the exception of the military, everyone remits cash to learn how to fly, unless their father/mother has an airplane and a CFI and can teach them for free.

Once doctors get on with hospitals, they work hard and pay dues, for sure, but they earn a real salary. They are not remitting money to the hospital for the internship. That is another difference between doctors and P-F-T.

What made you eligible for WIA? A furlough or shutdown? The purpose of that government program is to facilitate training of displaced, heretofore employed people so they can return to work. If that's what happened, you deserve it. No one would have any squawks about anyone who used WIA to get back to flying. WIA is not the same as P-F-T.
 
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DC8Driver

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Bobbysamd:

Why does it matter where the money came from? I had to come up with $2800. Does that make it worse than if uncle picked up all of it? What if I wasn't eligible for WIA and paid for all of it, does it make a bit of difference? Did I undermine anyone else? You may think so but you don't pay my bills. Life is tough. Life is competetive. Be competetive or stand aside.

You don't want to pay for training. I understand that. Anyone that wants to is free to because this is the US of A.

What is the difference if a company requires a XYZ type to interview for a job. You only have an ABC type. You tell them you'll get an XYZ type if they hire you. What is the difference where it came from?

Where do we say our training ends? Who determines when we stop paying for our own training? We do. You wanted to or had to stop paying. Don't cry because they guy next to you chose to make himself better and more employable than you.

The medical profession is no different. Three to five years of medical school only to get an entry level position. Should they not have to pay for school?
 

Britpilot

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Re: P-F-T

bobbysamd said:

(emphasis added)

Violins, anyone?

. That was one reason why I got out. No job is worth buying. [/B]


I paid for my training when I was hired and I would do it again tomorrow. I wanted to fly for the airlines and I got what I paid for, a career as an airline pilot. My job IS worth buying.
 

Jeff G

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chperplt:

The info originally showed up in an email, but I found a link to it here.

To all:

Please. Not another PFT thread. That horse is nothing but mush. I just wanted to show that certain very prestigious institutions are selling the dream using what appears to be out and out deception and misleading press. That's all.
 

bobbysamd

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WIA and P-F-T, again

There is no comparison at all to the WIA and P-F-T. Among other things, P-F-T gives people a way to cut in line ahead of others for jobs and interviews. Congress passed the WIA to give displaced workers a way back to employment:

SEC. 106. PURPOSE.

The purpose of this subtitle is to provide workforce investment activities, through statewide and local workforce investment systems, that increase the employment, retention, and earnings of participants, and increase occupational skill attainment by participants, and, as a result, improve the quality of the workforce, reduce welfare dependency, and enhance the productivity and competitiveness of the Nation.


(emphasis added)

Below is a link to the complete Act:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.1385.ENR:

Each state administers WIA funds. Colorado's example is below:

http://www.coworkforce.com/EMP/layoffassistance.asp

Of particular interest to our discussion is how WIA funds were made available to 911-prompted layoffs:

The Colorado Department of Labor and Employment has received a National Emergency Grant for 7.5 million dollars. This grant is to provide assistance to workers who have lost their jobs due to the 9/11/01 tragedy. In Colorado those affected industries are Airlines, Tourism, Aviation, Financial Services, Telecommunications, and High Technology companies. These funds are available to assist affected workers obtain employment and can provide for career counseling, testing, resume writing assistance and other job search related services. Services can also include training when needed.

(emphasis added)

Once again, having provided this documentation, it is clear, at least to me, anyway, that taking advantage of WIA funds to find a way back to work is a world apart from P-F-T. I suspect that DC8driver was displaced by 911 or another event. Displaced is the operative word. When the government establishes an assistance program, it wants eligible people to use them. That's why these programs are established. So what if DC8driver had to shell out $2.8K to pay for what WIA didn't cover? As someone who clearly loathes P-F-T, I have no problem with that (hoping, of course, it didn't work a real hardship).

What I'm saying in all this is I am on DC8driver's side.

On the other hand, P-F-T is a completely different animal. Once again, money talks. We all have choices.
 
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SpeedRacer

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SWA = PFT!

Since everyone is beating up on the commuter folks who go the "PFT" route, I question why the Southwest Airline Pilots who pay thousands of $$$'s just to get an interview aren't mentioned.

It's simply another way of buying an interview and/or job.....just at the national airline level that's all! :rolleyes:
 

Anaconda

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Sadly, ERAU even had some of their flight instructors being interviewed along with a mgt type on one of the local Orlando news stations a couple of weeks ago. They were stating the same exact BS that's found in that article. The ERAU kids had it memorized and polished like a politician spewing a slick sound bite. I was like, yeah, right, whatever...

That PFT argument about SWA is already being beat up on another post on this board, but I will say the supporters had a pretty convincing argument. Would you let the cost of a type rating get in the way of a multi-million dollar career?
 

Timebuilder

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One of the really cool things about America is your ability to make choices. True.

The part that is even cooler is the ability to make informed choices. Outifits like TAB Express can only do what they do because pilots are willing to step over others for a pilot job, just like at that Who concert. Many aren't informed enough to think past the immediate quest to the Big Picture. Others just don't care.

Doctors, and at my age I know a few as friends, NEVER pay for training in any way analogous to aviation. When they are in medical school, they are in the equivalent of a CFI program. Then, as interns, they are paid, just like instructors. Poorly.

Southwest Airlines. When you go and get typed, you can potentially fly any 737, not just theirs. That's like going back to school for a Master's degree, not "buying a job". If you were forced to type with their company alone in order to get hired, they would be using their training department as a profit center, and that would be PFT.

While I'm not an ERAU grad, I'm sorry to hear that they are trumpeting "pilot shortage" and charging big money for a shortcut to a job during hard times. This will hurt their reputation.

Is a job worth buying? Perhaps for some, perhaps many, nowadays.
Other things can't be bought, and I'll leave that for another post.
 

bobbysamd

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SWA and B737 types

Once again, I despise and loathe P-F-T as much as any P-F-T hater. But, I don't consider buying a B737 type in order to apply to Southwest as P-F-T. You can market that 737 type to other operators beside Southwest. If you're hired at Southwest, you still have to go through its initial 737 training.

Let's say Southwest operated a B737 type school and the only real way you could be considered would be to get your type at the school. Then, yes, that would be P-F-T in every way.

Now, as a practical matter, there's a 737 type school in Phoenix that is operated by a SW capt. I understand that he has authentic SW gouge. That's where I'd go for the type. I apologize; I can never remember the name of the school. :eek:

Again, as a practical matter, I don't know offhand of any majors, nationals or turbojets other than Southwest which require a B737 type to be hired. I ran a quick search just now and didn't find anyone. Maybe others will know.

By the way, during my search I saw where AirTran is accepting resumes and interviewing: http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/pilot.jsp
 
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