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Yuck. More propaganda for the uninformed
- Thread starter Jeff G
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rumpletumbler
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Well.......I had a guy at ASA who was lets just say in the high teens there in pilot senority which I would think was fairly high up walk my resume in and I got a form letter 1200 hours etc. The next week I met a guy with less than 300 hours who was graduating from Riddle and had already started training on the EMB120 with ASA. He had already gone through the part where you and several classmates sit on the ground with the engines running for several hours whatever part that is. ASA was kind enough to send me a "kit" though from flight safety saying that if I wanted to give them $30,000 bucks I to could fly with someone for 6 weeks in various aircraft and then get an interview with ASA, ie.. FlightSafety would put in the "good word to the point of an interview I guess." My first thought was, "Wonder how much it would cost to buy a job being a brain surgeon?" Bet those guys get paid a lot. 
RT
RT
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
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Riddle P-F-T
(emphasis added)
I don't know exactly how to take that. 550 hours of training on top of what you might have? Or, zero to 550 hours. Do you also have to earn your B.S. at Riddle?
In any event, times must be tough for ERAU. It's sounds to me as if Riddle is getting into the (quasi-semi) P-F-T biz.
Interesting . . . is ERAU trying to compete with TAB Express down the road????
I also like how ERAU has picked up the Kit Darby "pilot shortage" theme.
Hopefully, interested people will get plenty of advice on undoubtedly what will be an expensive program before signing up. Advice on the pilot "shortage," for one. Pros and cons of P-F-T for another.
And, the beat goes on . . . .
(emphasis added)
I don't know exactly how to take that. 550 hours of training on top of what you might have? Or, zero to 550 hours. Do you also have to earn your B.S. at Riddle?
In any event, times must be tough for ERAU. It's sounds to me as if Riddle is getting into the (quasi-semi) P-F-T biz.
Interesting . . . is ERAU trying to compete with TAB Express down the road????
I also like how ERAU has picked up the Kit Darby "pilot shortage" theme.
Hopefully, interested people will get plenty of advice on undoubtedly what will be an expensive program before signing up. Advice on the pilot "shortage," for one. Pros and cons of P-F-T for another.
And, the beat goes on . . . .
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BigFlyr
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- Nov 28, 2001
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- 359
There will always be a "shortage of qualified pilots" but first we have to define what the industry thinks a "qualified pilot" is...
Definition of Qualified Pilot:
One who has lofty aspirations of landing a dream job with the majors in just a few short years despite the current state of the industry and is willing to undermine the livleyhoods of other fellow pilots by entering into expensive intern-type training programs known as "ab-initio" whereby the candidate receives little or no compensation for his/her services as First Officer.
No physical qualifications required other than a pulse.
Those interested please call 1-800 Jet-Jock.
Definition of Qualified Pilot:
One who has lofty aspirations of landing a dream job with the majors in just a few short years despite the current state of the industry and is willing to undermine the livleyhoods of other fellow pilots by entering into expensive intern-type training programs known as "ab-initio" whereby the candidate receives little or no compensation for his/her services as First Officer.
No physical qualifications required other than a pulse.
Those interested please call 1-800 Jet-Jock.
AutoTransfer
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- 78
This will probably incite a riot, but I have to put in my $.02. Everyone that is hired by ANY airline and completes Initial training has paid their dues one way or another.
A Military Pilot gives many years of his/her life for relatively little pay to achieve the qualifications it takes to be hired by a major airline. To the people that have the ability, dedication and courage to complete this method I have nothing but the utmost respect.
The Flight Instructor who is hired by an airline has spent a lot of money and effort to complete their ratings and has followed that up with many grueling hours teaching our future aviators the craft for very little compensation. My hat goes off to these individuals as well.
The individual that has the dedication, ability and endurance, as well as the financial backing to complete an ab-initio program deserves no less respect from their fellow aviators or myself. These individuals are trained from day 1 using methodologies employed by the airlines to train their own recruits. The fact that their qualifications are accelerated by money does not detract from the fact that a significant amount of blood, sweat, and tears have been expended to meet the high standard required to pass a Part 121 Proficiency Check.
I get the feeling that most people believe that the persons that complete ab-initio training are wealthy individuals that buy their jobs. That may be true in a limited number of instances. The people that I know who have done this have sacrificed much in order to complete the program. Some examples are life savings, an excellent job, and separation from family to name a few. Take a minute before you judge and ask someone who has gone this route to tell you their story. You might be surprised at the sacrifice and dues paying that may have occurred to “fast track” their way to the airlines. BTW, I’ve seen the type that just wants to pay for a job. They usually don’t make it through primary training.
Ok, let’s hear it. I’ve got big shoulders.
P.S. For those that care (and I know some do) I was an ab-initio guy. Big Surprise, huh?
A Military Pilot gives many years of his/her life for relatively little pay to achieve the qualifications it takes to be hired by a major airline. To the people that have the ability, dedication and courage to complete this method I have nothing but the utmost respect.
The Flight Instructor who is hired by an airline has spent a lot of money and effort to complete their ratings and has followed that up with many grueling hours teaching our future aviators the craft for very little compensation. My hat goes off to these individuals as well.
The individual that has the dedication, ability and endurance, as well as the financial backing to complete an ab-initio program deserves no less respect from their fellow aviators or myself. These individuals are trained from day 1 using methodologies employed by the airlines to train their own recruits. The fact that their qualifications are accelerated by money does not detract from the fact that a significant amount of blood, sweat, and tears have been expended to meet the high standard required to pass a Part 121 Proficiency Check.
I get the feeling that most people believe that the persons that complete ab-initio training are wealthy individuals that buy their jobs. That may be true in a limited number of instances. The people that I know who have done this have sacrificed much in order to complete the program. Some examples are life savings, an excellent job, and separation from family to name a few. Take a minute before you judge and ask someone who has gone this route to tell you their story. You might be surprised at the sacrifice and dues paying that may have occurred to “fast track” their way to the airlines. BTW, I’ve seen the type that just wants to pay for a job. They usually don’t make it through primary training.
Ok, let’s hear it. I’ve got big shoulders.
P.S. For those that care (and I know some do) I was an ab-initio guy. Big Surprise, huh?
sabreliner
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- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 216
Allow me to temper this response by saying that I've flown with a bunch of guys who were ab-initio grads, and most are really good guys whom I enjoy flying with...
Umm...right.
Dedication is shown by the guys out there who have been furloughed, had their companies go out of business, etc. and who are still out there flying the line.
Ability is shown by the guy who flew single pilot IFR night in a beat up Baron hauling radioactive samples.
Endurance is shown by the guys who taught for 2 years and managed not to murder their students or get themselves killed.
The ab-initio guys are untested in all these arenas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience.
Then, I've flown with the same guys months later, and they have learned, and gained experience and are much more useful when things get rough.
My point isn't to attack ab-initio pilots, even though I'm not fond of those programs. It is simply to say that just because you made it through a 121 SIC Checkride, doesn't mean you are on the same level as someone in that same seat with a lot more experience before they got there. A 121 SIC ride isn't really very tough.
And, it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that you've paid your dues. Try telling that to the guy who taught me how to fly. It wouldn't get you very far.
Now, on to the original reason for my post. Some of those 300 hour guys that are refered to above as coming from Riddle, were interns for us. If the company liked them, many of them are invited to come and interview later. But, there are no guarantees for them.
The other low timers bought their job.
EVERYBODY else we are hiring right now have a lot of experience, most have prior 121 time. This is why you would have gotten a letter referencing the mins, while someone else may not have.
P.S. Those ab-initio pilots also missed one more thing. They missed all the fun you can have with GA. Even though it was tough, it was a lot of fun at times.
AutoTransfer said:
Umm...right.
Dedication is shown by the guys out there who have been furloughed, had their companies go out of business, etc. and who are still out there flying the line.
Ability is shown by the guy who flew single pilot IFR night in a beat up Baron hauling radioactive samples.
Endurance is shown by the guys who taught for 2 years and managed not to murder their students or get themselves killed.
The ab-initio guys are untested in all these arenas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience.
Then, I've flown with the same guys months later, and they have learned, and gained experience and are much more useful when things get rough.
My point isn't to attack ab-initio pilots, even though I'm not fond of those programs. It is simply to say that just because you made it through a 121 SIC Checkride, doesn't mean you are on the same level as someone in that same seat with a lot more experience before they got there. A 121 SIC ride isn't really very tough.
And, it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that you've paid your dues. Try telling that to the guy who taught me how to fly. It wouldn't get you very far.
Now, on to the original reason for my post. Some of those 300 hour guys that are refered to above as coming from Riddle, were interns for us. If the company liked them, many of them are invited to come and interview later. But, there are no guarantees for them.
The other low timers bought their job.
EVERYBODY else we are hiring right now have a lot of experience, most have prior 121 time. This is why you would have gotten a letter referencing the mins, while someone else may not have.
P.S. Those ab-initio pilots also missed one more thing. They missed all the fun you can have with GA. Even though it was tough, it was a lot of fun at times.
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bobbysamd
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P-F-T
(emphasis added)
Violins, anyone?
Good training should be tough. Arguing that you had to work hard and study a little to pass a training program will gain you no sympathy.
I've written my story so many times that I won't repeat it in full. I was over forty eleven years ago. I had changed careers and had built up my times and ratings through flight instructing to past the commuter quals of the day, which were 1500 total-500 multi - much higher than today (Realistically, 2500 total got you hired, but I had that, too.). I made sacrifices. I couldn't get a commuter job. Flight instructors who were way under forty were getting the few commuter jobs that could be had. P-F-T was starting up back then. Despite my quals, it became obvious to me that my only chance would be to pay my way in.
Don't tell me that P-F-T is a sacrifice. Notwithstanding the other bad things P-F-T symbolizes, it became apparent to me that money talks in this business. That was one reason why I got out. No job is worth buying.
AutoTransfer said:
(emphasis added)
Violins, anyone?
Good training should be tough. Arguing that you had to work hard and study a little to pass a training program will gain you no sympathy.
I've written my story so many times that I won't repeat it in full. I was over forty eleven years ago. I had changed careers and had built up my times and ratings through flight instructing to past the commuter quals of the day, which were 1500 total-500 multi - much higher than today (Realistically, 2500 total got you hired, but I had that, too.). I made sacrifices. I couldn't get a commuter job. Flight instructors who were way under forty were getting the few commuter jobs that could be had. P-F-T was starting up back then. Despite my quals, it became obvious to me that my only chance would be to pay my way in.
Don't tell me that P-F-T is a sacrifice. Notwithstanding the other bad things P-F-T symbolizes, it became apparent to me that money talks in this business. That was one reason why I got out. No job is worth buying.
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Tim47SIP
Serving for the USofA
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Experience!
"The ab-initio guys are untested in all these areas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience. "
First of all, this is no way a slam to anyone. I respect anyone that I am flying with with the exception of a very small unprofessional minority. These are just observations that I have personally seen. I can also state right up front that I am learning something new everytime I fly, and one thing is deffinitely certain, I don't know everything (nor can I spell)!
After watching these 300 hour wonders progress over the past couple of years, and watching the 1500 hour Capt's that were once a product of these programs, I can deffinitely see a trend. Several of the past incidents at my airline came from individual Capts that were once from a PFT program. Decision making skills are really never learned to there fullest potential. When a military, CFI, or Cargo etc. guy is out there flying outside the structured 121 operations, they learn a great deal about their environment. They get into situations that they have to make a decision to fix it. They constantly learn from these episodes. The 300 hour wonder has been in a closed structured envinronment his whole carrier and supervised from day one. He always is told what to do by virtue of a CFI, PC, Company profiles, dispatch, etc. These guys really get no oportunity to make their own decisions at least up untill they get their type and move to the left seat. Even then, they really arent subjected to the pressures of being on there own. But is that the time to start really learning? Real red light emergencies rarely happen, but combine a serious emergency with wx, com problems, new FO etc., you have a very oversaturated individual. The real problem here is when something happens outside the day to day norm. They tend to become very poor decision makers. Not all, but many that I know, PFT Cpts and FO's, are very impressed with their flying abilities. In other words, none of them has had a real down to earth emergency to let them know that they are not infallible. Most of the experienced single pilot and mil guys have learned to keep the aircraft out of any position that they would have to use their skills to get them out of it. They can stay way ahead of the aircraft and are able to see and hear things materializing ahead of them and be able to take action now to stop it. It wasn't if you were going to have an emergency, it was when you have and emergency!
I guess the whole point here is that I beleive many of these types of individuals need to realise is that experience is not bought, it is earned. They also need to realise their own experience base and do everything in their power to learn as much as they can. At least at my place of employment, the company has stopped taking these idividuals because of training problems. Not really sure if they have started up again, but who knows.
"The ab-initio guys are untested in all these areas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience. "
First of all, this is no way a slam to anyone. I respect anyone that I am flying with with the exception of a very small unprofessional minority. These are just observations that I have personally seen. I can also state right up front that I am learning something new everytime I fly, and one thing is deffinitely certain, I don't know everything (nor can I spell)!
After watching these 300 hour wonders progress over the past couple of years, and watching the 1500 hour Capt's that were once a product of these programs, I can deffinitely see a trend. Several of the past incidents at my airline came from individual Capts that were once from a PFT program. Decision making skills are really never learned to there fullest potential. When a military, CFI, or Cargo etc. guy is out there flying outside the structured 121 operations, they learn a great deal about their environment. They get into situations that they have to make a decision to fix it. They constantly learn from these episodes. The 300 hour wonder has been in a closed structured envinronment his whole carrier and supervised from day one. He always is told what to do by virtue of a CFI, PC, Company profiles, dispatch, etc. These guys really get no oportunity to make their own decisions at least up untill they get their type and move to the left seat. Even then, they really arent subjected to the pressures of being on there own. But is that the time to start really learning? Real red light emergencies rarely happen, but combine a serious emergency with wx, com problems, new FO etc., you have a very oversaturated individual. The real problem here is when something happens outside the day to day norm. They tend to become very poor decision makers. Not all, but many that I know, PFT Cpts and FO's, are very impressed with their flying abilities. In other words, none of them has had a real down to earth emergency to let them know that they are not infallible. Most of the experienced single pilot and mil guys have learned to keep the aircraft out of any position that they would have to use their skills to get them out of it. They can stay way ahead of the aircraft and are able to see and hear things materializing ahead of them and be able to take action now to stop it. It wasn't if you were going to have an emergency, it was when you have and emergency!
I guess the whole point here is that I beleive many of these types of individuals need to realise is that experience is not bought, it is earned. They also need to realise their own experience base and do everything in their power to learn as much as they can. At least at my place of employment, the company has stopped taking these idividuals because of training problems. Not really sure if they have started up again, but who knows.
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"No job is worth buying" ....To you. Other people disagree and that is what is really cool about America. We are free to do what we want.
Doctors pay for training and work for years in an intern situation. What is the difference? Do what you must to get where you want to be.
I just got a job because I had a Citation type. The WIA paid for most of it. I paid the rest. Did I buy a job? You bet I did. Was it worth it. I'm flying a jet for a living. Are you?
Guess I think it's worth it. Would I have liked to get the job without any money out of pocket? yes. Is that the way things are now? No, and no amount of whinning about it will change it.
Doctors pay for training and work for years in an intern situation. What is the difference? Do what you must to get where you want to be.
I just got a job because I had a Citation type. The WIA paid for most of it. I paid the rest. Did I buy a job? You bet I did. Was it worth it. I'm flying a jet for a living. Are you?
Guess I think it's worth it. Would I have liked to get the job without any money out of pocket? yes. Is that the way things are now? No, and no amount of whinning about it will change it.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Doctors' training and WIA
There's a difference between doctors paying for med school and P-F-T. Med school is part of their schooling, just like getting your ratings at an FBO or FSI is part of our schooling. With the exception of the military, everyone remits cash to learn how to fly, unless their father/mother has an airplane and a CFI and can teach them for free.
Once doctors get on with hospitals, they work hard and pay dues, for sure, but they earn a real salary. They are not remitting money to the hospital for the internship. That is another difference between doctors and P-F-T.
What made you eligible for WIA? A furlough or shutdown? The purpose of that government program is to facilitate training of displaced, heretofore employed people so they can return to work. If that's what happened, you deserve it. No one would have any squawks about anyone who used WIA to get back to flying. WIA is not the same as P-F-T.
There's a difference between doctors paying for med school and P-F-T. Med school is part of their schooling, just like getting your ratings at an FBO or FSI is part of our schooling. With the exception of the military, everyone remits cash to learn how to fly, unless their father/mother has an airplane and a CFI and can teach them for free.
Once doctors get on with hospitals, they work hard and pay dues, for sure, but they earn a real salary. They are not remitting money to the hospital for the internship. That is another difference between doctors and P-F-T.
What made you eligible for WIA? A furlough or shutdown? The purpose of that government program is to facilitate training of displaced, heretofore employed people so they can return to work. If that's what happened, you deserve it. No one would have any squawks about anyone who used WIA to get back to flying. WIA is not the same as P-F-T.
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Bobbysamd:
Why does it matter where the money came from? I had to come up with $2800. Does that make it worse than if uncle picked up all of it? What if I wasn't eligible for WIA and paid for all of it, does it make a bit of difference? Did I undermine anyone else? You may think so but you don't pay my bills. Life is tough. Life is competetive. Be competetive or stand aside.
You don't want to pay for training. I understand that. Anyone that wants to is free to because this is the US of A.
What is the difference if a company requires a XYZ type to interview for a job. You only have an ABC type. You tell them you'll get an XYZ type if they hire you. What is the difference where it came from?
Where do we say our training ends? Who determines when we stop paying for our own training? We do. You wanted to or had to stop paying. Don't cry because they guy next to you chose to make himself better and more employable than you.
The medical profession is no different. Three to five years of medical school only to get an entry level position. Should they not have to pay for school?
Why does it matter where the money came from? I had to come up with $2800. Does that make it worse than if uncle picked up all of it? What if I wasn't eligible for WIA and paid for all of it, does it make a bit of difference? Did I undermine anyone else? You may think so but you don't pay my bills. Life is tough. Life is competetive. Be competetive or stand aside.
You don't want to pay for training. I understand that. Anyone that wants to is free to because this is the US of A.
What is the difference if a company requires a XYZ type to interview for a job. You only have an ABC type. You tell them you'll get an XYZ type if they hire you. What is the difference where it came from?
Where do we say our training ends? Who determines when we stop paying for our own training? We do. You wanted to or had to stop paying. Don't cry because they guy next to you chose to make himself better and more employable than you.
The medical profession is no different. Three to five years of medical school only to get an entry level position. Should they not have to pay for school?
Jeff G
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 184
chperplt:
The info originally showed up in an email, but I found a link to it here.
To all:
Please. Not another PFT thread. That horse is nothing but mush. I just wanted to show that certain very prestigious institutions are selling the dream using what appears to be out and out deception and misleading press. That's all.
The info originally showed up in an email, but I found a link to it here.
To all:
Please. Not another PFT thread. That horse is nothing but mush. I just wanted to show that certain very prestigious institutions are selling the dream using what appears to be out and out deception and misleading press. That's all.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
WIA and P-F-T, again
There is no comparison at all to the WIA and P-F-T. Among other things, P-F-T gives people a way to cut in line ahead of others for jobs and interviews. Congress passed the WIA to give displaced workers a way back to employment:
SEC. 106. PURPOSE.
The purpose of this subtitle is to provide workforce investment activities, through statewide and local workforce investment systems, that increase the employment, retention, and earnings of participants, and increase occupational skill attainment by participants, and, as a result, improve the quality of the workforce, reduce welfare dependency, and enhance the productivity and competitiveness of the Nation.
(emphasis added)
Below is a link to the complete Act:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.1385.ENR:
Each state administers WIA funds. Colorado's example is below:
http://www.coworkforce.com/EMP/layoffassistance.asp
Of particular interest to our discussion is how WIA funds were made available to 911-prompted layoffs:
The Colorado Department of Labor and Employment has received a National Emergency Grant for 7.5 million dollars. This grant is to provide assistance to workers who have lost their jobs due to the 9/11/01 tragedy. In Colorado those affected industries are Airlines, Tourism, Aviation, Financial Services, Telecommunications, and High Technology companies. These funds are available to assist affected workers obtain employment and can provide for career counseling, testing, resume writing assistance and other job search related services. Services can also include training when needed.
(emphasis added)
Once again, having provided this documentation, it is clear, at least to me, anyway, that taking advantage of WIA funds to find a way back to work is a world apart from P-F-T. I suspect that DC8driver was displaced by 911 or another event. Displaced is the operative word. When the government establishes an assistance program, it wants eligible people to use them. That's why these programs are established. So what if DC8driver had to shell out $2.8K to pay for what WIA didn't cover? As someone who clearly loathes P-F-T, I have no problem with that (hoping, of course, it didn't work a real hardship).
What I'm saying in all this is I am on DC8driver's side.
On the other hand, P-F-T is a completely different animal. Once again, money talks. We all have choices.
There is no comparison at all to the WIA and P-F-T. Among other things, P-F-T gives people a way to cut in line ahead of others for jobs and interviews. Congress passed the WIA to give displaced workers a way back to employment:
SEC. 106. PURPOSE.
The purpose of this subtitle is to provide workforce investment activities, through statewide and local workforce investment systems, that increase the employment, retention, and earnings of participants, and increase occupational skill attainment by participants, and, as a result, improve the quality of the workforce, reduce welfare dependency, and enhance the productivity and competitiveness of the Nation.
(emphasis added)
Below is a link to the complete Act:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.1385.ENR:
Each state administers WIA funds. Colorado's example is below:
http://www.coworkforce.com/EMP/layoffassistance.asp
Of particular interest to our discussion is how WIA funds were made available to 911-prompted layoffs:
The Colorado Department of Labor and Employment has received a National Emergency Grant for 7.5 million dollars. This grant is to provide assistance to workers who have lost their jobs due to the 9/11/01 tragedy. In Colorado those affected industries are Airlines, Tourism, Aviation, Financial Services, Telecommunications, and High Technology companies. These funds are available to assist affected workers obtain employment and can provide for career counseling, testing, resume writing assistance and other job search related services. Services can also include training when needed.
(emphasis added)
Once again, having provided this documentation, it is clear, at least to me, anyway, that taking advantage of WIA funds to find a way back to work is a world apart from P-F-T. I suspect that DC8driver was displaced by 911 or another event. Displaced is the operative word. When the government establishes an assistance program, it wants eligible people to use them. That's why these programs are established. So what if DC8driver had to shell out $2.8K to pay for what WIA didn't cover? As someone who clearly loathes P-F-T, I have no problem with that (hoping, of course, it didn't work a real hardship).
What I'm saying in all this is I am on DC8driver's side.
On the other hand, P-F-T is a completely different animal. Once again, money talks. We all have choices.
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SpeedRacer
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 60
SWA = PFT!
Since everyone is beating up on the commuter folks who go the "PFT" route, I question why the Southwest Airline Pilots who pay thousands of $$$'s just to get an interview aren't mentioned.
It's simply another way of buying an interview and/or job.....just at the national airline level that's all!
Since everyone is beating up on the commuter folks who go the "PFT" route, I question why the Southwest Airline Pilots who pay thousands of $$$'s just to get an interview aren't mentioned.
It's simply another way of buying an interview and/or job.....just at the national airline level that's all!
Anaconda
FLY ARMY!
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- Nov 28, 2001
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- 594
Sadly, ERAU even had some of their flight instructors being interviewed along with a mgt type on one of the local Orlando news stations a couple of weeks ago. They were stating the same exact BS that's found in that article. The ERAU kids had it memorized and polished like a politician spewing a slick sound bite. I was like, yeah, right, whatever...
That PFT argument about SWA is already being beat up on another post on this board, but I will say the supporters had a pretty convincing argument. Would you let the cost of a type rating get in the way of a multi-million dollar career?
That PFT argument about SWA is already being beat up on another post on this board, but I will say the supporters had a pretty convincing argument. Would you let the cost of a type rating get in the way of a multi-million dollar career?
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
One of the really cool things about America is your ability to make choices. True.
The part that is even cooler is the ability to make informed choices. Outifits like TAB Express can only do what they do because pilots are willing to step over others for a pilot job, just like at that Who concert. Many aren't informed enough to think past the immediate quest to the Big Picture. Others just don't care.
Doctors, and at my age I know a few as friends, NEVER pay for training in any way analogous to aviation. When they are in medical school, they are in the equivalent of a CFI program. Then, as interns, they are paid, just like instructors. Poorly.
Southwest Airlines. When you go and get typed, you can potentially fly any 737, not just theirs. That's like going back to school for a Master's degree, not "buying a job". If you were forced to type with their company alone in order to get hired, they would be using their training department as a profit center, and that would be PFT.
While I'm not an ERAU grad, I'm sorry to hear that they are trumpeting "pilot shortage" and charging big money for a shortcut to a job during hard times. This will hurt their reputation.
Is a job worth buying? Perhaps for some, perhaps many, nowadays.
Other things can't be bought, and I'll leave that for another post.
The part that is even cooler is the ability to make informed choices. Outifits like TAB Express can only do what they do because pilots are willing to step over others for a pilot job, just like at that Who concert. Many aren't informed enough to think past the immediate quest to the Big Picture. Others just don't care.
Doctors, and at my age I know a few as friends, NEVER pay for training in any way analogous to aviation. When they are in medical school, they are in the equivalent of a CFI program. Then, as interns, they are paid, just like instructors. Poorly.
Southwest Airlines. When you go and get typed, you can potentially fly any 737, not just theirs. That's like going back to school for a Master's degree, not "buying a job". If you were forced to type with their company alone in order to get hired, they would be using their training department as a profit center, and that would be PFT.
While I'm not an ERAU grad, I'm sorry to hear that they are trumpeting "pilot shortage" and charging big money for a shortcut to a job during hard times. This will hurt their reputation.
Is a job worth buying? Perhaps for some, perhaps many, nowadays.
Other things can't be bought, and I'll leave that for another post.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
SWA and B737 types
Once again, I despise and loathe P-F-T as much as any P-F-T hater. But, I don't consider buying a B737 type in order to apply to Southwest as P-F-T. You can market that 737 type to other operators beside Southwest. If you're hired at Southwest, you still have to go through its initial 737 training.
Let's say Southwest operated a B737 type school and the only real way you could be considered would be to get your type at the school. Then, yes, that would be P-F-T in every way.
Now, as a practical matter, there's a 737 type school in Phoenix that is operated by a SW capt. I understand that he has authentic SW gouge. That's where I'd go for the type. I apologize; I can never remember the name of the school.
Again, as a practical matter, I don't know offhand of any majors, nationals or turbojets other than Southwest which require a B737 type to be hired. I ran a quick search just now and didn't find anyone. Maybe others will know.
By the way, during my search I saw where AirTran is accepting resumes and interviewing: http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/pilot.jsp
Once again, I despise and loathe P-F-T as much as any P-F-T hater. But, I don't consider buying a B737 type in order to apply to Southwest as P-F-T. You can market that 737 type to other operators beside Southwest. If you're hired at Southwest, you still have to go through its initial 737 training.
Let's say Southwest operated a B737 type school and the only real way you could be considered would be to get your type at the school. Then, yes, that would be P-F-T in every way.
Now, as a practical matter, there's a 737 type school in Phoenix that is operated by a SW capt. I understand that he has authentic SW gouge. That's where I'd go for the type. I apologize; I can never remember the name of the school.
Again, as a practical matter, I don't know offhand of any majors, nationals or turbojets other than Southwest which require a B737 type to be hired. I ran a quick search just now and didn't find anyone. Maybe others will know.
By the way, during my search I saw where AirTran is accepting resumes and interviewing: http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/pilot.jsp
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Knelson: Your welcome. I took what was offered to me by my Government. You don't like it? Tough, call your representitives and complain. Thats the American way.
You think I hurt others by taking the money offered me? Tough, my family is all I care about. Not you, in the least.
I am out of work through no fault of my own. Emery Worldwide, ever heard of them? Airline shut down. I guess you've never been through that. You might have a differnt attitude.
Try being out of work for an extended period of time and see how rightous you are.
I guess you think I ripped off the country by taking unemployment benefits? Grow up.
I'll bet over the last 25 years I have paid alot more taxes than you. I have every right to use what is offered to me. The program is there to get unemployed people back to work. It worked. I am working.
Congrats on your Ultra type. Until recently I had not paid for training either. Let me assure you that if it means feeding my family, I'll do it again. This is a free country.
You think I hurt others by taking the money offered me? Tough, my family is all I care about. Not you, in the least.
I am out of work through no fault of my own. Emery Worldwide, ever heard of them? Airline shut down. I guess you've never been through that. You might have a differnt attitude.
Try being out of work for an extended period of time and see how rightous you are.
I guess you think I ripped off the country by taking unemployment benefits? Grow up.
I'll bet over the last 25 years I have paid alot more taxes than you. I have every right to use what is offered to me. The program is there to get unemployed people back to work. It worked. I am working.
Congrats on your Ultra type. Until recently I had not paid for training either. Let me assure you that if it means feeding my family, I'll do it again. This is a free country.
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SpeedRacer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 60
SWA = PFT
Timebuilder said:
I find it hilarious folks go out of their way to justify a 737 type is not similar to the "PFT debate"!!
So, how many other companies (regardless if they are hiring or not) REQUIRE a 737 type for employment???
These guys simply are taking their own money (thousands of $$$'s) to get an interview AND in return, saves the company money when the candidate eventually upgrades to Captain.....
It also doesn't matter where you get your type (i.e. being "forced to type at SWA), but the simple fact that you ARE forced to have the type to gain employment is PFT ......
Glad I didn't start my career thousands of $$$'s in the hole
Timebuilder said:
I find it hilarious folks go out of their way to justify a 737 type is not similar to the "PFT debate"!!
So, how many other companies (regardless if they are hiring or not) REQUIRE a 737 type for employment???
These guys simply are taking their own money (thousands of $$$'s) to get an interview AND in return, saves the company money when the candidate eventually upgrades to Captain.....
It also doesn't matter where you get your type (i.e. being "forced to type at SWA), but the simple fact that you ARE forced to have the type to gain employment is PFT ......
Glad I didn't start my career thousands of $$$'s in the hole
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Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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- 4,625
I'm glad you are a good humored, happy person.
Perhaps I need to give you a personal example, so that you will understand the difference I described. A few months ago, I applied to a freight outfit, and had a recommendation from one of their best captains, with whom I had flown. The job went to another person who already had the type rating. Ergo, the rating was a condition of being hired in that case.
Further, Southwest doesn't care where you got your type rating, and isn't in the business of selling their right seat to the PFT buyer, i.e.: Tab Express. Many Vangard pilots are no doubt signing on with Southwest. They aren't PFT pilots, either.
To summarize: I could go out and get a 737 type, Southwest would receive no money, and I would have no position with their company. In the case of an PFT operator, I'd pay my money and have a job.
See?
Keep smiling!!
Perhaps I need to give you a personal example, so that you will understand the difference I described. A few months ago, I applied to a freight outfit, and had a recommendation from one of their best captains, with whom I had flown. The job went to another person who already had the type rating. Ergo, the rating was a condition of being hired in that case.
Further, Southwest doesn't care where you got your type rating, and isn't in the business of selling their right seat to the PFT buyer, i.e.: Tab Express. Many Vangard pilots are no doubt signing on with Southwest. They aren't PFT pilots, either.
To summarize: I could go out and get a 737 type, Southwest would receive no money, and I would have no position with their company. In the case of an PFT operator, I'd pay my money and have a job.
See?
Keep smiling!!
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bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
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Southwest P-F-T
Actually, the B737 type Southwest wants doesn't save it that much money. You still have to be run through class well enough to pass your 121 SIC oral. Southwest funds that. You have to take your 121 checkride. Southwest pays for that, too. I would concede that maybe Southwest saves a little money because applicants are familiar with the aircraft and maybe need less ground school than someone unfamilar with the aircraft. However, practically speaking, you bone up for a type ride and unless you review the material over and over, you'll forget most of it almost immediately.
Don't forget, too, that you have to learn Southwest's SOPs and checklists, which may be much different than the ones used at your type mill.
Once more, Southwest trainees do not fork over money to Herb. It's not P-F-T. Herb sets the rules. If you want game with him you have to play by his rules. But, as Timebuilder noted, he doesn't sell the seat to you.
Actually, the B737 type Southwest wants doesn't save it that much money. You still have to be run through class well enough to pass your 121 SIC oral. Southwest funds that. You have to take your 121 checkride. Southwest pays for that, too. I would concede that maybe Southwest saves a little money because applicants are familiar with the aircraft and maybe need less ground school than someone unfamilar with the aircraft. However, practically speaking, you bone up for a type ride and unless you review the material over and over, you'll forget most of it almost immediately.
Don't forget, too, that you have to learn Southwest's SOPs and checklists, which may be much different than the ones used at your type mill.
Once more, Southwest trainees do not fork over money to Herb. It's not P-F-T. Herb sets the rules. If you want game with him you have to play by his rules. But, as Timebuilder noted, he doesn't sell the seat to you.
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tredding@swa
SWA F/O
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 294
get your story straight
Speedracer,
I have had just about ENOUGH of your blatant anti-SWA rhetoric!
1st - you DO NOT need a type rating to INTERVIEW with SWA. That requirement was dropped a couple of YEARS ago.
2nd - Since day ONE, every SWA pilot has paid for his/her type rating. It has always been that way and probably will continue.
3rd - PERSONAL CHOICE, those who want to spend $7000 to work for SWA have made a decision based on what they personally want from their careers. Who are you to second guess them and be so abusive towards someone who has a different goal in life than yourself!?!?
Personally, I think flying on the backside of the clock and across 9+ timezones is crazy, tiring, and all in all a crappy lifestyle. This does not change the fact that FDX & UPS are awesome companies, financially & professionally. Both were on my "shortlist" of air carriers when I made the decision to leave corporate flying. Several factors caused me to apply at ONLY SWA. I love the corporate culture that IS SWA. I want to look forward to getting in the car and heading to work. Again, my CHOICE not yours!
The cost of a type rating is a SMALL price to pay to be where you WANT to be. For me, it works out to just over $400/yr. to amortize the $7300. Let's see, a BIG whopping $1.11 per day for an outstanding career... less than a tall latte' at Starbucks. PLUS, MY decision, NOT yours!!
I don't know where you get off with such a poor attitude concerning SWA, obviously your problem, not mine. Get over it and move on, stop bothering fellow professionals who have made a decision based on theeir personal needs.
Have a great day! Tredding
Speedracer,
I have had just about ENOUGH of your blatant anti-SWA rhetoric!
1st - you DO NOT need a type rating to INTERVIEW with SWA. That requirement was dropped a couple of YEARS ago.
2nd - Since day ONE, every SWA pilot has paid for his/her type rating. It has always been that way and probably will continue.
3rd - PERSONAL CHOICE, those who want to spend $7000 to work for SWA have made a decision based on what they personally want from their careers. Who are you to second guess them and be so abusive towards someone who has a different goal in life than yourself!?!?
Personally, I think flying on the backside of the clock and across 9+ timezones is crazy, tiring, and all in all a crappy lifestyle. This does not change the fact that FDX & UPS are awesome companies, financially & professionally. Both were on my "shortlist" of air carriers when I made the decision to leave corporate flying. Several factors caused me to apply at ONLY SWA. I love the corporate culture that IS SWA. I want to look forward to getting in the car and heading to work. Again, my CHOICE not yours!
The cost of a type rating is a SMALL price to pay to be where you WANT to be. For me, it works out to just over $400/yr. to amortize the $7300. Let's see, a BIG whopping $1.11 per day for an outstanding career... less than a tall latte' at Starbucks. PLUS, MY decision, NOT yours!!
I don't know where you get off with such a poor attitude concerning SWA, obviously your problem, not mine. Get over it and move on, stop bothering fellow professionals who have made a decision based on theeir personal needs.
Have a great day! Tredding
ERAU
Where did riddle get those numbers man they just don't seem to fit.
I have flown with a few riddle instructors, that had way over 500 hrs , and so far no one has just up and handed them a job, their hours go from 1200-900 on an avg.
Just remember numbers can be made to show any thing ,,,, look at what happened to wordcom,,, lies all lies, and now AOL, admites that they lied to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So the story continues unfold..........................
Where did riddle get those numbers man they just don't seem to fit.
I have flown with a few riddle instructors, that had way over 500 hrs , and so far no one has just up and handed them a job, their hours go from 1200-900 on an avg.
Just remember numbers can be made to show any thing ,,,, look at what happened to wordcom,,, lies all lies, and now AOL, admites that they lied to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So the story continues unfold..........................
SpeedRacer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 60
SWA = PFT
"tredding@swa"
Hope the water isn't getting too deep - you seem very agitated and defensive about paying thousands of $$$'s for your 737 type rating AND having to justify it to me....and the board.
Listen, I don't recall any 'blatant anti-SWA rhetoric" on my part - I've got several friends that love flying for good ol' Herb - and that's just dandy, because like you said "it's your choice".
About your "numbered points". I know SWA doesn't require you to HAVE the type to get an interview - but you won't secure a job without it. You guys need to get it together with the union to negotiate dropping the 737 type rating. WHY does it make sense to keep new guys forking out $7,300 (like you) just because "it's always has been like that"? That make a whole lot of sense....
I simply made a comparison b/t the commuter PFT "debate" and the similarities with SWA, nothing more, so please don't read too much into that, you sure came accross as very "rattled" and I don't want you to choke on any pool water....
Finally, you're loopy if you think I'm "abusive" toward the entire SWA crewforce, if so, then you've got some pretty thin skin...enjoy your choice....
"tredding@swa"
Hope the water isn't getting too deep - you seem very agitated and defensive about paying thousands of $$$'s for your 737 type rating AND having to justify it to me....and the board.
Listen, I don't recall any 'blatant anti-SWA rhetoric" on my part - I've got several friends that love flying for good ol' Herb - and that's just dandy, because like you said "it's your choice".
About your "numbered points". I know SWA doesn't require you to HAVE the type to get an interview - but you won't secure a job without it. You guys need to get it together with the union to negotiate dropping the 737 type rating. WHY does it make sense to keep new guys forking out $7,300 (like you) just because "it's always has been like that"? That make a whole lot of sense....
I simply made a comparison b/t the commuter PFT "debate" and the similarities with SWA, nothing more, so please don't read too much into that, you sure came accross as very "rattled" and I don't want you to choke on any pool water....
Finally, you're loopy if you think I'm "abusive" toward the entire SWA crewforce, if so, then you've got some pretty thin skin...enjoy your choice....
tredding@swa
SWA F/O
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 294
Thank you - I am very happy to be where I am & where I am going!
The PFT and SWA are not related however, see the mins required to APPLY, I have pasted below for all to read. As you can see, you must be highly qualified to get an interview, 737 type or not.
As for the thickness of my skin.... my agitation stems from any person who makes uninformed blanket statements towards others about their personal decisions.
I could care less about how, when, who pays for what. There are hundreds of ways to becoming an airline/professional pilot. I welcome ALL who are able to get there, regardless of the road travelled.
Everyone has paid their dues, in one way or another. Prior to the "Great Pilot Shortage" MOST of the new-hires (75-80%) for the Majors came from the largest "ab-initio" training pool in the history of aviation, the military. All of the majors hired ex-mil guys with 1,000 to 2,000TT, some flying centerline thrust single crewed fighters. Seems like they worked into the airline cockpit just fine.
If some kid is a member of the "lucky-sperm club" and Daddy & Mommy pay for him/her to go to ERAU's program which puts junior in the F/O seat - CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome aboard! Hope you do a great job, if not - you won't make it past IOE & your next checkride. If someone wants to pay $30K to go to the Flight Safety or whatever "Academy" so they can have a shot at a $20,000/yr. job flying for ASA or Mesa... hey GOODLUCK!
Perhaps the real reason for SWA requiring a 737 type prior to starting class is that they want to see some personal commitment on the part of the applicant. Sort of a, "put your money where your mouth is" kind of thing. Anyone with the mins can apply for a job at any airline, most apply to EVERY airline when they are looking to move up to a major. Southwest is looking for employees (not just pilots) who WANT to be at SWA, not just any airline. For example, for graduating "B School" students, SWA is #3rd or 4th top choice for companies to work for nationwide. Must be something going on at SWA for people who just spent 2+ years and $30-60K on an MBA to want to go there???
It was not my intention to offend you Speedy.... Have a great day !
As promised, SWA pilot applicant requirements;
Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
Licenses / Ratings:
U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Non Restricted U.S. Type Rating on a B-737 preferred for interview, *required for employment.
Age:
Must be least twenty–three years of age, at the time of hire.
Flight Experience:
2500 hours total or 1500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the **Pilot in command, as defined by FAR PART I is required. Recency of experience is considered. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.**
Medical:
Must possess a current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate. Must pass FAA mandated Drug Test.
Authorization to work in the United States:
Must have established authorization to work in the United States.
Driver's License:
Must possess a valid United States Driver's License.
Education:
Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred.
Letters of Recommendation:
At least three letters from any individuals who can attest to the pilot’s flying skills, by having observed them over a sustained period of time.
*Southwest Airlines requirement on the B-737 Type Rating: Although preferred, a candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process they have 6 months from that date to successfully complete a B-737 Type Rating course and obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
The PFT and SWA are not related however, see the mins required to APPLY, I have pasted below for all to read. As you can see, you must be highly qualified to get an interview, 737 type or not.
As for the thickness of my skin.... my agitation stems from any person who makes uninformed blanket statements towards others about their personal decisions.
I could care less about how, when, who pays for what. There are hundreds of ways to becoming an airline/professional pilot. I welcome ALL who are able to get there, regardless of the road travelled.
Everyone has paid their dues, in one way or another. Prior to the "Great Pilot Shortage" MOST of the new-hires (75-80%) for the Majors came from the largest "ab-initio" training pool in the history of aviation, the military. All of the majors hired ex-mil guys with 1,000 to 2,000TT, some flying centerline thrust single crewed fighters. Seems like they worked into the airline cockpit just fine.
If some kid is a member of the "lucky-sperm club" and Daddy & Mommy pay for him/her to go to ERAU's program which puts junior in the F/O seat - CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome aboard! Hope you do a great job, if not - you won't make it past IOE & your next checkride. If someone wants to pay $30K to go to the Flight Safety or whatever "Academy" so they can have a shot at a $20,000/yr. job flying for ASA or Mesa... hey GOODLUCK!
Perhaps the real reason for SWA requiring a 737 type prior to starting class is that they want to see some personal commitment on the part of the applicant. Sort of a, "put your money where your mouth is" kind of thing. Anyone with the mins can apply for a job at any airline, most apply to EVERY airline when they are looking to move up to a major. Southwest is looking for employees (not just pilots) who WANT to be at SWA, not just any airline. For example, for graduating "B School" students, SWA is #3rd or 4th top choice for companies to work for nationwide. Must be something going on at SWA for people who just spent 2+ years and $30-60K on an MBA to want to go there???
It was not my intention to offend you Speedy.... Have a great day !
As promised, SWA pilot applicant requirements;
Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
Licenses / Ratings:
U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Non Restricted U.S. Type Rating on a B-737 preferred for interview, *required for employment.
Age:
Must be least twenty–three years of age, at the time of hire.
Flight Experience:
2500 hours total or 1500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the **Pilot in command, as defined by FAR PART I is required. Recency of experience is considered. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.**
Medical:
Must possess a current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate. Must pass FAA mandated Drug Test.
Authorization to work in the United States:
Must have established authorization to work in the United States.
Driver's License:
Must possess a valid United States Driver's License.
Education:
Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred.
Letters of Recommendation:
At least three letters from any individuals who can attest to the pilot’s flying skills, by having observed them over a sustained period of time.
*Southwest Airlines requirement on the B-737 Type Rating: Although preferred, a candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process they have 6 months from that date to successfully complete a B-737 Type Rating course and obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
hyper
We got "change" alright.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 469
"Dedication is shown by the guys out there who have been furloughed, had their companies go out of business, etc. and who are still out there flying the line.
Ability is shown by the guy who flew single pilot IFR night in a beat up Baron hauling radioactive samples.
Endurance is shown by the guys who taught for 2 years and managed not to murder their students or get themselves killed.
The ab-initio guys are untested in all these arenas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience. "
BY Sabreliner
IMO the most accurate post on the subject that I've seen for some time now.
Nothing replaces experience.
Ability is shown by the guy who flew single pilot IFR night in a beat up Baron hauling radioactive samples.
Endurance is shown by the guys who taught for 2 years and managed not to murder their students or get themselves killed.
The ab-initio guys are untested in all these arenas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience. "
BY Sabreliner
IMO the most accurate post on the subject that I've seen for some time now.
Nothing replaces experience.
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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- Nov 25, 2001
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- 4,625
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