Yuck. More propaganda for the uninformed

[DC8Driver]

"No job is worth buying" ....To you. Other people disagree and that is what is really cool about America. We are free to do what we want.

Doctors pay for training and work for years in an intern situation. What is the difference? Do what you must to get where you want to be.

I just got a job because I had a Citation type. The WIA paid for most of it. I paid the rest. Did I buy a job? You bet I did. Was it worth it. I'm flying a jet for a living. Are you?

Guess I think it's worth it. Would I have liked to get the job without any money out of pocket? yes. Is that the way things are now? No, and no amount of whinning about it will change it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Doctors' training and WIA

There's a difference between doctors paying for med school and P-F-T. Med school is part of their schooling, just like getting your ratings at an FBO or FSI is part of our schooling. With the exception of the military, everyone remits cash to learn how to fly, unless their father/mother has an airplane and a CFI and can teach them for free.

Once doctors get on with hospitals, they work hard and pay dues, for sure, but they earn a real salary. They are not remitting money to the hospital for the internship. That is another difference between doctors and P-F-T.

What made you eligible for WIA? A furlough or shutdown? The purpose of that government program is to facilitate training of displaced, heretofore employed people so they can return to work. If that's what happened, you deserve it. No one would have any squawks about anyone who used WIA to get back to flying. WIA is not the same as P-F-T.

 

[DC8Driver]

Bobbysamd:

Why does it matter where the money came from? I had to come up with $2800. Does that make it worse than if uncle picked up all of it? What if I wasn't eligible for WIA and paid for all of it, does it make a bit of difference? Did I undermine anyone else? You may think so but you don't pay my bills. Life is tough. Life is competetive. Be competetive or stand aside.

You don't want to pay for training. I understand that. Anyone that wants to is free to because this is the US of A.

What is the difference if a company requires a XYZ type to interview for a job. You only have an ABC type. You tell them you'll get an XYZ type if they hire you. What is the difference where it came from?

Where do we say our training ends? Who determines when we stop paying for our own training? We do. You wanted to or had to stop paying. Don't cry because they guy next to you chose to make himself better and more employable than you.

The medical profession is no different. Three to five years of medical school only to get an entry level position. Should they not have to pay for school?

 

[Britpilot]

Re: P-F-T

(emphasis added)

Violins, anyone?

. That was one reason why I got out. No job is worth buying. [/B]

I paid for my training when I was hired and I would do it again tomorrow. I wanted to fly for the airlines and I got what I paid for, a career as an airline pilot. My job IS worth buying.

 

[Jeff G]

chperplt:

The info originally showed up in an email, but I found a link to it here.

To all:

Please. Not another PFT thread. That horse is nothing but mush. I just wanted to show that certain very prestigious institutions are selling the dream using what appears to be out and out deception and misleading press. That's all.

 

[bobbysamd]

WIA and P-F-T, again

There is no comparison at all to the WIA and P-F-T. Among other things, P-F-T gives people a way to cut in line ahead of others for jobs and interviews. Congress passed the WIA to give displaced workers a way back to employment:

SEC. 106. PURPOSE.

The purpose of this subtitle is to provide workforce investment activities, through statewide and local workforce investment systems, that increase the employment, retention, and earnings of participants, and increase occupational skill attainment by participants, and, as a result, improve the quality of the workforce, reduce welfare dependency, and enhance the productivity and competitiveness of the Nation.

(emphasis added)

Below is a link to the complete Act:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.1385.ENR:

Each state administers WIA funds. Colorado's example is below:

http://www.coworkforce.com/EMP/layoffassistance.asp

Of particular interest to our discussion is how WIA funds were made available to 911-prompted layoffs:

The Colorado Department of Labor and Employment has received a National Emergency Grant for 7.5 million dollars. This grant is to provide assistance to workers who have lost their jobs due to the 9/11/01 tragedy. In Colorado those affected industries are Airlines, Tourism, Aviation, Financial Services, Telecommunications, and High Technology companies. These funds are available to assist affected workers obtain employment and can provide for career counseling, testing, resume writing assistance and other job search related services. Services can also include training when needed.

(emphasis added)

Once again, having provided this documentation, it is clear, at least to me, anyway, that taking advantage of WIA funds to find a way back to work is a world apart from P-F-T. I suspect that DC8driver was displaced by 911 or another event. Displaced is the operative word. When the government establishes an assistance program, it wants eligible people to use them. That's why these programs are established. So what if DC8driver had to shell out $2.8K to pay for what WIA didn't cover? As someone who clearly loathes P-F-T, I have no problem with that (hoping, of course, it didn't work a real hardship).

What I'm saying in all this is I am on DC8driver's side.

On the other hand, P-F-T is a completely different animal. Once again, money talks. We all have choices.

 

[SpeedRacer]

SWA = PFT!

Since everyone is beating up on the commuter folks who go the "PFT" route, I question why the Southwest Airline Pilots who pay thousands of $$$'s just to get an interview aren't mentioned.

It's simply another way of buying an interview and/or job.....just at the national airline level that's all!

 

[Anaconda]

Sadly, ERAU even had some of their flight instructors being interviewed along with a mgt type on one of the local Orlando news stations a couple of weeks ago. They were stating the same exact BS that's found in that article. The ERAU kids had it memorized and polished like a politician spewing a slick sound bite. I was like, yeah, right, whatever...

That PFT argument about SWA is already being beat up on another post on this board, but I will say the supporters had a pretty convincing argument. Would you let the cost of a type rating get in the way of a multi-million dollar career?

 

[Timebuilder]

One of the really cool things about America is your ability to make choices. True.

The part that is even cooler is the ability to make informed choices. Outifits like TAB Express can only do what they do because pilots are willing to step over others for a pilot job, just like at that Who concert. Many aren't informed enough to think past the immediate quest to the Big Picture. Others just don't care.

Doctors, and at my age I know a few as friends, NEVER pay for training in any way analogous to aviation. When they are in medical school, they are in the equivalent of a CFI program. Then, as interns, they are paid, just like instructors. Poorly.

Southwest Airlines. When you go and get typed, you can potentially fly any 737, not just theirs. That's like going back to school for a Master's degree, not "buying a job". If you were forced to type with their company alone in order to get hired, they would be using their training department as a profit center, and that would be PFT.

While I'm not an ERAU grad, I'm sorry to hear that they are trumpeting "pilot shortage" and charging big money for a shortcut to a job during hard times. This will hurt their reputation.

Is a job worth buying? Perhaps for some, perhaps many, nowadays.
Other things can't be bought, and I'll leave that for another post.

 

[bobbysamd]

SWA and B737 types

Once again, I despise and loathe P-F-T as much as any P-F-T hater. But, I don't consider buying a B737 type in order to apply to Southwest as P-F-T. You can market that 737 type to other operators beside Southwest. If you're hired at Southwest, you still have to go through its initial 737 training.

Let's say Southwest operated a B737 type school and the only real way you could be considered would be to get your type at the school. Then, yes, that would be P-F-T in every way.

Now, as a practical matter, there's a 737 type school in Phoenix that is operated by a SW capt. I understand that he has authentic SW gouge. That's where I'd go for the type. I apologize; I can never remember the name of the school.

Again, as a practical matter, I don't know offhand of any majors, nationals or turbojets other than Southwest which require a B737 type to be hired. I ran a quick search just now and didn't find anyone. Maybe others will know.

By the way, during my search I saw where AirTran is accepting resumes and interviewing: http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/pilot.jsp