Yuck. More propaganda for the uninformed

[bobbysamd]

WIA and P-F-T, again

There is no comparison at all to the WIA and P-F-T. Among other things, P-F-T gives people a way to cut in line ahead of others for jobs and interviews. Congress passed the WIA to give displaced workers a way back to employment:

SEC. 106. PURPOSE.

The purpose of this subtitle is to provide workforce investment activities, through statewide and local workforce investment systems, that increase the employment, retention, and earnings of participants, and increase occupational skill attainment by participants, and, as a result, improve the quality of the workforce, reduce welfare dependency, and enhance the productivity and competitiveness of the Nation.

(emphasis added)

Below is a link to the complete Act:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.1385.ENR:

Each state administers WIA funds. Colorado's example is below:

http://www.coworkforce.com/EMP/layoffassistance.asp

Of particular interest to our discussion is how WIA funds were made available to 911-prompted layoffs:

The Colorado Department of Labor and Employment has received a National Emergency Grant for 7.5 million dollars. This grant is to provide assistance to workers who have lost their jobs due to the 9/11/01 tragedy. In Colorado those affected industries are Airlines, Tourism, Aviation, Financial Services, Telecommunications, and High Technology companies. These funds are available to assist affected workers obtain employment and can provide for career counseling, testing, resume writing assistance and other job search related services. Services can also include training when needed.

(emphasis added)

Once again, having provided this documentation, it is clear, at least to me, anyway, that taking advantage of WIA funds to find a way back to work is a world apart from P-F-T. I suspect that DC8driver was displaced by 911 or another event. Displaced is the operative word. When the government establishes an assistance program, it wants eligible people to use them. That's why these programs are established. So what if DC8driver had to shell out $2.8K to pay for what WIA didn't cover? As someone who clearly loathes P-F-T, I have no problem with that (hoping, of course, it didn't work a real hardship).

What I'm saying in all this is I am on DC8driver's side.

On the other hand, P-F-T is a completely different animal. Once again, money talks. We all have choices.

 

[SpeedRacer]

SWA = PFT!

Since everyone is beating up on the commuter folks who go the "PFT" route, I question why the Southwest Airline Pilots who pay thousands of $$$'s just to get an interview aren't mentioned.

It's simply another way of buying an interview and/or job.....just at the national airline level that's all!

 

[Anaconda]

Sadly, ERAU even had some of their flight instructors being interviewed along with a mgt type on one of the local Orlando news stations a couple of weeks ago. They were stating the same exact BS that's found in that article. The ERAU kids had it memorized and polished like a politician spewing a slick sound bite. I was like, yeah, right, whatever...

That PFT argument about SWA is already being beat up on another post on this board, but I will say the supporters had a pretty convincing argument. Would you let the cost of a type rating get in the way of a multi-million dollar career?

 

[Timebuilder]

One of the really cool things about America is your ability to make choices. True.

The part that is even cooler is the ability to make informed choices. Outifits like TAB Express can only do what they do because pilots are willing to step over others for a pilot job, just like at that Who concert. Many aren't informed enough to think past the immediate quest to the Big Picture. Others just don't care.

Doctors, and at my age I know a few as friends, NEVER pay for training in any way analogous to aviation. When they are in medical school, they are in the equivalent of a CFI program. Then, as interns, they are paid, just like instructors. Poorly.

Southwest Airlines. When you go and get typed, you can potentially fly any 737, not just theirs. That's like going back to school for a Master's degree, not "buying a job". If you were forced to type with their company alone in order to get hired, they would be using their training department as a profit center, and that would be PFT.

While I'm not an ERAU grad, I'm sorry to hear that they are trumpeting "pilot shortage" and charging big money for a shortcut to a job during hard times. This will hurt their reputation.

Is a job worth buying? Perhaps for some, perhaps many, nowadays.
Other things can't be bought, and I'll leave that for another post.

 

[bobbysamd]

SWA and B737 types

Once again, I despise and loathe P-F-T as much as any P-F-T hater. But, I don't consider buying a B737 type in order to apply to Southwest as P-F-T. You can market that 737 type to other operators beside Southwest. If you're hired at Southwest, you still have to go through its initial 737 training.

Let's say Southwest operated a B737 type school and the only real way you could be considered would be to get your type at the school. Then, yes, that would be P-F-T in every way.

Now, as a practical matter, there's a 737 type school in Phoenix that is operated by a SW capt. I understand that he has authentic SW gouge. That's where I'd go for the type. I apologize; I can never remember the name of the school.

Again, as a practical matter, I don't know offhand of any majors, nationals or turbojets other than Southwest which require a B737 type to be hired. I ran a quick search just now and didn't find anyone. Maybe others will know.

By the way, during my search I saw where AirTran is accepting resumes and interviewing: http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/pilot.jsp

 

[DC8Driver]

Knelson: Your welcome. I took what was offered to me by my Government. You don't like it? Tough, call your representitives and complain. Thats the American way.

You think I hurt others by taking the money offered me? Tough, my family is all I care about. Not you, in the least.

I am out of work through no fault of my own. Emery Worldwide, ever heard of them? Airline shut down. I guess you've never been through that. You might have a differnt attitude.

Try being out of work for an extended period of time and see how rightous you are.

I guess you think I ripped off the country by taking unemployment benefits? Grow up.

I'll bet over the last 25 years I have paid alot more taxes than you. I have every right to use what is offered to me. The program is there to get unemployed people back to work. It worked. I am working.

Congrats on your Ultra type. Until recently I had not paid for training either. Let me assure you that if it means feeding my family, I'll do it again. This is a free country.

 

[SpeedRacer]

SWA = PFT

Timebuilder said:

Southwest Airlines. When you go and get typed, you can potentially fly any 737, not just theirs. That's like going back to school for a Master's degree, not "buying a job". If you were forced to type with their company alone in order to get hired, they would be using their training department as a profit center, and that would be PFT.

I find it hilarious folks go out of their way to justify a 737 type is not similar to the "PFT debate"!!

So, how many other companies (regardless if they are hiring or not) REQUIRE a 737 type for employment???

These guys simply are taking their own money (thousands of $$$'s) to get an interview AND in return, saves the company money when the candidate eventually upgrades to Captain.....

It also doesn't matter where you get your type (i.e. being "forced to type at SWA), but the simple fact that you ARE forced to have the type to gain employment is PFT ......

Glad I didn't start my career thousands of $$$'s in the hole

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm glad you are a good humored, happy person.

Perhaps I need to give you a personal example, so that you will understand the difference I described. A few months ago, I applied to a freight outfit, and had a recommendation from one of their best captains, with whom I had flown. The job went to another person who already had the type rating. Ergo, the rating was a condition of being hired in that case.

Further, Southwest doesn't care where you got your type rating, and isn't in the business of selling their right seat to the PFT buyer, i.e.: Tab Express. Many Vangard pilots are no doubt signing on with Southwest. They aren't PFT pilots, either.

To summarize: I could go out and get a 737 type, Southwest would receive no money, and I would have no position with their company. In the case of an PFT operator, I'd pay my money and have a job.

See?

Keep smiling!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Southwest P-F-T

Actually, the B737 type Southwest wants doesn't save it that much money. You still have to be run through class well enough to pass your 121 SIC oral. Southwest funds that. You have to take your 121 checkride. Southwest pays for that, too. I would concede that maybe Southwest saves a little money because applicants are familiar with the aircraft and maybe need less ground school than someone unfamilar with the aircraft. However, practically speaking, you bone up for a type ride and unless you review the material over and over, you'll forget most of it almost immediately.

Don't forget, too, that you have to learn Southwest's SOPs and checklists, which may be much different than the ones used at your type mill.

Once more, Southwest trainees do not fork over money to Herb. It's not P-F-T. Herb sets the rules. If you want game with him you have to play by his rules. But, as Timebuilder noted, he doesn't sell the seat to you.

 

[tredding@swa]

get your story straight

Speedracer,

I have had just about ENOUGH of your blatant anti-SWA rhetoric!

1st - you DO NOT need a type rating to INTERVIEW with SWA. That requirement was dropped a couple of YEARS ago.

2nd - Since day ONE, every SWA pilot has paid for his/her type rating. It has always been that way and probably will continue.

3rd - PERSONAL CHOICE, those who want to spend $7000 to work for SWA have made a decision based on what they personally want from their careers. Who are you to second guess them and be so abusive towards someone who has a different goal in life than yourself!?!?

Personally, I think flying on the backside of the clock and across 9+ timezones is crazy, tiring, and all in all a crappy lifestyle. This does not change the fact that FDX & UPS are awesome companies, financially & professionally. Both were on my "shortlist" of air carriers when I made the decision to leave corporate flying. Several factors caused me to apply at ONLY SWA. I love the corporate culture that IS SWA. I want to look forward to getting in the car and heading to work. Again, my CHOICE not yours!

The cost of a type rating is a SMALL price to pay to be where you WANT to be. For me, it works out to just over $400/yr. to amortize the $7300. Let's see, a BIG whopping $1.11 per day for an outstanding career... less than a tall latte' at Starbucks. PLUS, MY decision, NOT yours!!

I don't know where you get off with such a poor attitude concerning SWA, obviously your problem, not mine. Get over it and move on, stop bothering fellow professionals who have made a decision based on theeir personal needs.

Have a great day! Tredding

 

[ILS JNKY]

ERAU

Where did riddle get those numbers man they just don't seem to fit.


I have flown with a few riddle instructors, that had way over 500 hrs , and so far no one has just up and handed them a job, their hours go from 1200-900 on an avg.


Just remember numbers can be made to show any thing ,,,, look at what happened to wordcom,,, lies all lies, and now AOL, admites that they lied to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So the story continues unfold..........................

 

[SpeedRacer]

SWA = PFT

"tredding@swa"

Hope the water isn't getting too deep - you seem very agitated and defensive about paying thousands of $$$'s for your 737 type rating AND having to justify it to me....and the board.

Listen, I don't recall any 'blatant anti-SWA rhetoric" on my part - I've got several friends that love flying for good ol' Herb - and that's just dandy, because like you said "it's your choice".

About your "numbered points". I know SWA doesn't require you to HAVE the type to get an interview - but you won't secure a job without it. You guys need to get it together with the union to negotiate dropping the 737 type rating. WHY does it make sense to keep new guys forking out $7,300 (like you) just because "it's always has been like that"? That make a whole lot of sense....

I simply made a comparison b/t the commuter PFT "debate" and the similarities with SWA, nothing more, so please don't read too much into that, you sure came accross as very "rattled" and I don't want you to choke on any pool water....

Finally, you're loopy if you think I'm "abusive" toward the entire SWA crewforce, if so, then you've got some pretty thin skin...enjoy your choice....

 

[tredding@swa]

Thank you - I am very happy to be where I am & where I am going!

The PFT and SWA are not related however, see the mins required to APPLY, I have pasted below for all to read. As you can see, you must be highly qualified to get an interview, 737 type or not.

As for the thickness of my skin.... my agitation stems from any person who makes uninformed blanket statements towards others about their personal decisions.

I could care less about how, when, who pays for what. There are hundreds of ways to becoming an airline/professional pilot. I welcome ALL who are able to get there, regardless of the road travelled.

Everyone has paid their dues, in one way or another. Prior to the "Great Pilot Shortage" MOST of the new-hires (75-80%) for the Majors came from the largest "ab-initio" training pool in the history of aviation, the military. All of the majors hired ex-mil guys with 1,000 to 2,000TT, some flying centerline thrust single crewed fighters. Seems like they worked into the airline cockpit just fine.

If some kid is a member of the "lucky-sperm club" and Daddy & Mommy pay for him/her to go to ERAU's program which puts junior in the F/O seat - CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome aboard! Hope you do a great job, if not - you won't make it past IOE & your next checkride. If someone wants to pay $30K to go to the Flight Safety or whatever "Academy" so they can have a shot at a $20,000/yr. job flying for ASA or Mesa... hey GOODLUCK!

Perhaps the real reason for SWA requiring a 737 type prior to starting class is that they want to see some personal commitment on the part of the applicant. Sort of a, "put your money where your mouth is" kind of thing. Anyone with the mins can apply for a job at any airline, most apply to EVERY airline when they are looking to move up to a major. Southwest is looking for employees (not just pilots) who WANT to be at SWA, not just any airline. For example, for graduating "B School" students, SWA is #3rd or 4th top choice for companies to work for nationwide. Must be something going on at SWA for people who just spent 2+ years and $30-60K on an MBA to want to go there???

It was not my intention to offend you Speedy.... Have a great day !

As promised, SWA pilot applicant requirements;

Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
Licenses / Ratings:
U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Non Restricted U.S. Type Rating on a B-737 preferred for interview, *required for employment.

Age:
Must be least twenty–three years of age, at the time of hire.

Flight Experience:
2500 hours total or 1500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the **Pilot in command, as defined by FAR PART I is required. Recency of experience is considered. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.**

Medical:
Must possess a current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate. Must pass FAA mandated Drug Test.

Authorization to work in the United States:
Must have established authorization to work in the United States.

Driver's License:
Must possess a valid United States Driver's License.
Education:
Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred.

Letters of Recommendation:
At least three letters from any individuals who can attest to the pilot’s flying skills, by having observed them over a sustained period of time.

*Southwest Airlines requirement on the B-737 Type Rating: Although preferred, a candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process they have 6 months from that date to successfully complete a B-737 Type Rating course and obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.

 

[hyper]

"Dedication is shown by the guys out there who have been furloughed, had their companies go out of business, etc. and who are still out there flying the line.

Ability is shown by the guy who flew single pilot IFR night in a beat up Baron hauling radioactive samples.

Endurance is shown by the guys who taught for 2 years and managed not to murder their students or get themselves killed.

The ab-initio guys are untested in all these arenas. They managed to scrape together 30k and they bought themselves a job. I've flown with pleanty of ab-initio guys, just after they got out of training, and while most of them can fly the airplane without scaring me, ALL of them lack the decision making skills, and the knowledge that can only be gained through experience. "
BY Sabreliner

IMO the most accurate post on the subject that I've seen for some time now.

Nothing replaces experience.

 

[Timebuilder]

AMEN.

I couldn't buy the experience that I have gained by the flying and instructing I've done.

No one else can buy it, either.