Your Pay Cut

[FLB717]

Ok, I admite Im not the sharpest tool in the shed, but someone other than a Traditional Major Pilot tell me this.

1. Regionals (no such thing withan Small Jet) are MAKING MONEY for thier handlers (NWA,DAL,USA,UAL etc) and you get paid crap.

2. You are asked to take a pay cut. 20% less of crap is still crap, it just sticks to the shoe longer and smells worse.

3. The Economy is turning around now so why take a cut when your Company is making money?

4. Your MAKING MONEY and GROWING...? what the FU@#? Use your Heads say NO!

By the way I was a Comair Guy and I DID walk the Picket Line. And now my new airline is making MONEY (not much), and Growing. Pay Cut?... BS.

Just my opinion but some tell me why so many are justfying thier position and cutting thier own arm off? You really think MGT will say a year or two ....."Hey remember that pay cut well we are giving it back to you...no really" No it will be in thier bonus (ask Leo M.)

Ok Im off the soap box.

 

[captjim]

Mesa is the reason!!! Having to compete with the airline where the pilots are willing to whore themselves out at Wal Mart wages. A CEO that likes to have a 1% profit margin for market share, it's hard to compete with that S#$thole airline, no offence to you professionals that voted no.

 

[avrodriver]

Your new airline that is MAKING MONEY and GROWING is in control of it's OWN DESTINY. Your mgmt would be hard pressed to come up with reasons why when they are putting all the money in the bank they want some more of your cut. Now if your company comes to my company and says "hey sucker, we know you depend on us to survive......you better cut us a deal or your out" now you have a reason to go to your own boyz and threaten/scare them into givin up the lunch money. ACA, Skywest, AirWhiskey, you know....the latest "sellouts" are the ones that have been put in this position by a f.uckin weasle b.itchass comany by the name of Untied that is milkin this bankruptcy thing for all it's got, if they weren't in bankruptcy they wouldn't be able to pull this sh.it. Mesa on the other hand, they signed on to this clusterf.uck after everything was going in the sh.itter so I don't know what thier excuse is. I'm not justifing the concessions we all took, and I'd have to totally agree with you in calling it all BS, but your comparing two totally different types of airlines.........congrads on your rising out of this regional cesspool and good luck. AD

 

[acaTerry]

Mesa is the reason!!! Having to compete with the airline where the pilots are willing to whore themselves out at Wal Mart wages.

Whoa there horsey. Quite a number of the guys hollering about MESA pilots are guilty as well. TA's have been signed all over the place......

 

[captjim]

Mesa is the reason!!! Having to compete with the airline where the pilots are willing to whore themselves out at Wal Mart wages.

Whoa there horsey. Quite a number of the guys hollering about MESA pilots are guilty as well. TA's have been signed all over the place......

Am I wrong?

 

[acaTerry]

It's not a matter of whether you are wrong. Wah tis the matter is that everyone lashing out at the MESA pilots did the same darn thing---signed the agreements.

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,

It's all about "staying competitive." When one regional started low bidding, the rest had to follow. Mesa's initial low balling didn't seem to cause many waves because their product used to suck. But, then the majors (United and USAir) started looking for any cost cuts and those type of regionals became attractive. Then Skywest shocked the world by allowing the same pay scales on 50 -99 seat aircraft. (which might be modified to "up to 70 seats" instead of 99 seats) The other United Express carriers had to follow. I don't know if Delta will ask for paycuts from ASA and Comair, but they just might. We are currently in negotiations, but have already stated that we will not be the only ones (meaning flight attendants and mechanics---not necessarily ASA/Comair) to give back, and that we want snapbacks/contract extensions or NO DEAL.

But, whoever started this "tumble to the bottom" for the regionals and majors is probably going to win MVP for the airline CEO's club. They are all patting his back and rump in the locker room right now.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[smellthejeta]

It's not a matter of whether you are wrong. Wah tis the matter is that everyone lashing out at the MESA pilots did the same darn thing---signed the agreements.

Terry,

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. I don't know what your educational background is, but one macroeconomic concept taught in an introductory econ course is of ologopolies and cartels. A cartel is a group of companies that agree to function together. At a basic level, they may set prices and standards that they all agree to abide by. OPEC is a good example.

Suppose The Big 6 got together and set prices together and agreed to function as a cartel. You would see no pricing variation but one airline may have more expenses than another, leading one to have a lower profit than the other (but they're still making money).

Say that this particular airline decides they can make more profit by breaking away from the cartel and charging their own prices. They might charge lower prices, but they may make it up on volume.

Well, what do you expect the cartel to do? They're losing business and revenue. Because their cost structure is lower than the guy who broke away, they can sell tickets cheaper than he can. They then attract business away from the other guy.

Now, the BOD of the various members of the cartel is pissed that the earnings per share of the various airlines are way down. They're pissed that they lowered their prices and gave away revenue. But they didn't have much of a choice, you see. If they would have kep their prices up, they would have lost MORE business and had even lower earnings per share. But the BOD insists that they should not have lowered their prices and the revenue bar. Unfortunately, now that the public knows that they can fly for a cheaper price than they did before, they will not put up with price increases.

BUT! Some other guy comes along and figures out that the public will pay $$$ for a ticket. If he can make a profit with those prices, he's going to do it. Granted, the barriers to entry in this business are huge, but that's somewhat beside the point.

The bottom lines is that once somebody starts the race to the bottom, everybody else has to follow. If the race was never started, there wouldn't be a problem.

It's easy to have a hypothetical discussion on paper. When it comes to somebody's job, livelihood, and family, I wouldn't be quite so quick to play hypothetical games. I guarantee you that if Mesa had not come in and started this whole crap, DH/ZW/OO would not have been under as strong of pressure to get concessionary TA's. What happens if you guys did not approve the TA? It's not like there are tons of jobs out there waiting to be taken. When Comair struck, everybody else was hiring, so if they went out of business, at least they could find a job.

Personally, I think all you guys didn't have a choice. If you wanted to even compete for flying with Mesa, you had to take a pay cut. As it is, you still don't have a contract. In this economy, I would not take a stand on principle, because there's nowhere for you to go if your bluff is called. Right now, it's not about flying, it's about making a living. Had Mesa not blinked first, y'all wouldn't have this problem. I think you see the parallel with my earlier example -- everybody was doing fine and making a little dough, until some guy had to come along and ruin it.

 

[Syllogism]

Ok, I admite Im not the sharpest tool in the shed, but someone other than a Traditional Major Pilot tell me this.

1. Regionals (no such thing withan Small Jet) are MAKING MONEY for thier handlers (NWA,DAL,USA,UAL etc) and you get paid crap.

ALPA’s self-created framework has erected a world of alter-ego unionists; this is the catalyst of our profession’s demise.

Fact: Economics rule the world – always have and always will. The market place will always dictate, therefore we must work with this truth or our efforts will continue to besiege us.

When only one airline exists inside in a market, it can enjoy the fruits of monopolizing power; thus, it is able to demand strong rates from the passenger. However, as soon as an additional airline inaugurates service inside of this market, the monopoly is lost and ticket prices diminish to the point where revenue struggles to meet cost. This is the reality of the free-market.

Competition is everything. If we are the only group running a race, applying for a job, or selling a product, we will get what we want. But as soon as another enters our arena, our world is transformed.

The same can be said when demanding wages as a unionist. When you are the only union the airline may employ for its labor needs, you will get what you want. If another Union is able to perform your work, then you must compete or lose your job. And do not be fooled, scope clauses don’t work if it creates separate groups.

You ask. “why do we get paid crap”? The answer to your question is simple. It's because ALPA, from a free-market perspective, has created separate groups that compete for a finite amount of flying.

2. You are asked to take a pay cut. 20% less of crap is still crap, it just sticks to the shoe longer and smells worse.

There is nothing wrong with being asked by your management to take a pay-cut; this is a request, not a command. Remember that we are ultimately the ones who decide whether or not we acquire a reduction in pay. Heck, we may offer a contractual concession without a request by management; I’m sure any airline would embrace this bizarre decision.

Allow me to ask - would you capitulate to your management’s solicitation for a concession, or would you deny it? Your answer will depend on the following:


1. Do you want job security and/or growth?
2. Do you want to earn better wages?

Fact: Under ALPA’s structure you cannot have it both ways; this is a business certainty – so you must pick your poison!

3. The Economy is turning around now so why take a cut when your Company is making money?

The economy is not turning around; it is in a steep nosedive. What do you consider to be the economy? The employment rate, inflationary rate, housing costs, stock market, trade deficit, consumer debt, energy reserves, et al. make up our economy – and according to most, it is not showing any signs of bouncing back, not even a trend.

As for accepting a concession, I (like most at Comair) will vote against any pay cut when invited to do so. And yes, we will be asked very soon.

Of course, I happen to have the advantage as I work for Comair. While my ALPA unit competes against many other ALPA units, I am lucky to be able to compete against the ALPA unit of DAL. The majority of us are well aware of the “ALPA whipsaw”, and we will use this to our collective advantage. This is not because we are evil; this is because we are in competition for business.

Allow me to explain:

If the Delta Airline pilots vote “NO” to concessions they will still pay, only in a different way – furloughs and lost retirement.

If Comair pilots vote “NO” to concessions - the Delta Airline pilots still pay the price – again via furloughs and lost retirement.


There is only so much money in the Delta Inc whipsaw, therefore I’m sure you will attest to the following:

A. The more fuel costs Delta Inc, the less that’s available to the DAL pilots

B. The more Delta Inc’s old 727’s hemorrhage earnings, the less that's available to the DAL pilots

C. The more Maintenance workers cost Delta Inc, the less that’s available to the DAL pilots

D. The more Comair pilots cost Delta Inc, the less that’s available to the DAL pilots

This begs the question, if Comair pilots take a concession, who are they “really” saving?

Make no mistake; it is every ALPA unit for itself – Period!

You know, it’s too bad my ALPA unit was unsuccessful during our strike to achieve “parity on scale” with the Delta pilot’s PWA. I find it ironic that we were unable to bring our contract up to the Delta pilots level but will easily bring their PWA down to our level. We will simply hold our ground during these hard times and achieve parity on scale after all. Again, this is a market certainty. The free economy will not allow different cost-structures. The highest price tag will always incur an ignominious death. And need we forget; the race to the bottom has no finish line. If the Comair pilots ever take a pay cut, the race starts all over again with DAL pilots right back on top.


Thus, here’s how my ALPA unit sees it.

We realize Delta Inc operates many different airlines with different operating certificates (DAL – Song – CMR - ASA). But we also realize that Delta Inc. isn’t the only whipsaw in town; ALPA has its separate units playing the game as well.

Fact - The more groups that exist, the more we will fight for jobs. This means job security for one ALPA unit equals furloughs for a seperate ALPA unit.

At present, the DAL/Song pilot list is in the very early stages of complete meltdown. This is largely due to the fact that Delta Inc is failing and the DAL ALPA unit is the most expensive under the Delta Inc. umbrella.

In the past, Delta Inc was able to rob Peter (ASA/CMR) to pay Paul (DAL). This will no longer happen as we are no longer willing to sacrifice this job in hopes for their job. And we know If we take a concession, we are really only saving DAL pilot jobs, not our own.

ALPA has structured a “dog eat dog” world, thus we are forced to deal with this rule. We don’t like these rules, but these are the rules nontheless. And a greater number of pilot groups means pilots will earn less and passengers will pay less.

If only one pilot list existed worldwide, we would simply take whatever we wanted and each airline would be forced to deal with this cost on an equal bases, just like landing fees. And since this great cost would be equal amongst each airline, passenger competition would be uneffected.

There’s in old saying that states “necessity is the mother of invention”. It’s really too bad this adage isn’t holding up in our case, isn’t it?

Are you getting it yet? {The fact that ALPA’s self-created framework has erected a world of alter-ego unionists}


Enought about the ALPA whipsaw, what about the Delta Inc Whipsaw?

Delta's bag of jokes:

Did you hear the one about the DCI whipsaw?

Delta Inc swapped ASA’s most lucrative routs with Comair’s least lucrative ones. Delta Inc remained unaffected because the exact same routes still existed. However, when ASA went to the negotiation table, the pilots were told their company did not earn as much as Comair and therefore would not be compensated as much.




Did you hear the one about Comair losing money?

The year was 2002; Comair earned a profit of $50 million dollars and ASA was flat. That same year Delta Airlines lost $750 million. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that Delta Inc lost $700 million.

Next came the year of 2003; this year Comair lost $50 million dollars, but again ASA remained flat. To no surprise, concessions were directed towards the pilots flying at "money losing Comair". During this same year Delta Airlines improved slightly, only losing $500 million dollars. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that Delta Inc lost $550 million, which was $150 million better than the previous year(2002).

During 2003, Delta Inc used Comair's RJ as a sacrificial lamb, mothballing mainline's fleet and backfilling it with CRJ's. Comair took a $100 million hit to save Delta Inc $250 Million – and that’s why Delta Inc continued to grow the Comair unit during 2003.

I ask again, if Comair pilots take concessions, who are we really saving?

I could write pages upon pages of the Delta Inc / ALPA whipsaw game, but I’m starting to ramble on.

So, who want’s to play?

Good luck!

 

[General Lee]

Syllogism,

Ok, you lost me here. Where do you get this statement?:


"If the Delta Airline pilots vote “NO” to concessions they will still pay, only in a different way – furloughs and lost retirement.

If Comair pilots vote “NO” to concessions - the Delta Airline pilots still pay the price – again via furloughs and lost retirement. "


They cannot just furlough away, we still have a No Furlough clause. We will not give that up. Infact, Dalpa's last (July 3rd) code-a-phone message stated that they are still fighting for the 250 war Emergency furloughs with a grievance that we should win, and everyone knows the war and its affects are over. And, we have minimum block hours they still have to stick to. You can bet that Delta will be coming to your door and asking for cuts. There is no doubt. If you refuse, they will start cutting back on your schedules, and maybe start furloughing your guys because you do not have a No Furlough clause. They will squeeze you, just like they are trying to squeeze us. They will use that whipsaw against you with lower cost regionals, like Chataqua, and tell them they can have the expansion. Yes, I know your airline within our whole airline is doing well at the moment, and that is great for all of us. But, Leo beat you guys in the past, and if he wants to get some money from you again, he will. He will compare your regional compensation to all of the other regionals and say "we can't compete." What will be your defense? Your regional industry has really hit the skids as of late. Look what Skywest has agreed to. Mesa and Chataqua have agreed to lower pay scales to get the business. Comair, just like Delta, is now at the top of the pay scales compared to our peers. That is normally great. But, it looks like we are going to give up between 10-15% pay and some lifestyle concessions. If you think that you are immune just because your airline is doing well right now, you are dreaming. Delta has only come to us (the pilots) first, and then they will go to the non-union mainline employees. They will just give them paycuts etc and say it is to "stay competitive" with the other majors. Then they will look for other cuts, and turn to you. (Of course, they will probably line their own pockets with bonuses) They won't reward you for being profitable, they will come to you to "stay competitive." Just watch.

And, the economy is getting better. This last quarter was the best quarter since 2001. (It can only get better it seems) Sure, unemployement is up, but with the eventual tax cuts kicking in and the low interest rates, things will get better. Those lower interest rates and tax cuts will spur businesses to invest more which will create more investments, which can only help air travel. People will have more money in their pockets, which some will use to travel. The war is over and people are getting out more, just look at our European travel on Delta---absolutely packed.

So, I do think none of us are immune to management asking for cuts. It all boils down to how our union reps handle it. Our Dalpa reps aren't going to let the company furlough more or hurt our retirements. They are going to offer cuts, and say take it or leave it--we will see you in May 2005... How long do you think those talks will take in 2005? A couple more years, just like when management takes forever on a positive contract. (like our C2K contract) And, I do not want you to take cuts---I just think Delta will start asking soon.

Bye Bye--General Lee