Your Pay Cut

[blott]

Probably already been thought of but,

Ok, so lets assume Delta wants consessions from the Delta Mailine guys. Now the delta guys don't have to play ball with management and give them this-BUT-lets say the pilots are willing to give a little anyways to "help out" their company. The Delta pilots have been around the block a few times, and I'm sure they would include some type of "snap back" deal to reverse the pay cuts when things are better. In a show of "good faith" between the pilots and management-the pilot group will present this to Delta before they try to pressure the pilot group-and included in this proposal- a clause that voids all the seniority resignations of the furloughed pilots if they choose to return from the commuters-read COMAIR here. Comair might not like this cause they now all the guys will leave as soon as delta calls-so put in a length of service deal, or some kind of monentary penalty, like the training fee some company's have if you leave before a certain time.



B

UNITY!!!

 

[stillaboo]

While I do think it's a shame that some mainline guys have had to give up seniority to go regional, that doesn't mean that the policy doesn't need to be changed.
Will some guys get screwed? Yeah, sure, all of the guys who gave up their seniority. But that's better than EVERYONE! And, on top of that, CMR is a leader in this industry. Don't do it for the rest of the regionals, do it for yourselves. Someday YOU may be furloughed from mainline, and you shouldn't have to give up your seniority to go fly for a regional again either.

Progress in this battle will not come easily. If everyone makes small gains, then, eventually, these small gains will add up over time into something big over time.

Think long term.

-Boo!

 

[General Lee]

Stillaboo,

I don't understand what you are saying? Are you for or against the resignation policy at Comair?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[stillaboo]

While I do think it's a shame that some mainline guys have had to give up seniority to go regional, that doesn't mean that the policy doesn't need to be changed.
-Boo!

What I meant by that was that just b/c some former mainliners who now fly RJ's would be pissed that they gave up their seniority b/f a new policy of not having to give it up came into place doesn't mean that the new policy shouldn't be implemented still. Better to screw a couple guys who already gave up their seniority then to continue a policy where mainliners should expect to give up seniority to fly for a regional. The ultimate good of pilots as a whole is NOT served by forcing guys to give up seniority at a more desireable position to fly for a less desirable one.

I really don't understand why any CMR pilot could be for a policy of forced seniority resignation, unless it's just to spite DALPA. Someday many of them might be furloughed from mainline, and they will rue the day they decided it was a good idea to force mainliners to give up seniority to work regional. Staple mainline furloughs to the bottom or something, it's better than nothing (if mainline is 'too good' for 1st year FO pay on the junior equipment, then they don't have to take it). Furthermore, this might teach some of the mainliners why they need to help their regional bretheren raise the pay of a 1st year regional FO, instead of just poo-pooing the efforts of regional pilots from the right seat of a mainliner. I can guarantee you mainliners will care more about regional contracts if their pilots might actaully have to work under these contracts (sentencing some DALPA guys to hard time as a Mesa FO on reserve might be a swift dose of reality!). The only guys who get hurt in this are future newhires, and, being that they aren't identifiable and aren't part of the union, why should their interests be put before mainline furloughs, paying dues members of your union, particularly ones from your own company (a common parent company, at least)?

All of us pilots need to work together and stop all this infighting over what are, in the end, petty issues.

In short, General, I'm against CMR's current policy.

-Boo!

 

[General Lee]

Boo,

That is what I thought. There might be a lot of Comair pilots that want to spite the mainline pilots, but it is good that you do not. Being a Delta furlough is probably not easy for those pilots because everybody knows that eventually they would want to go back. With the bad job market, it isn't easy for them. If ASA can drop that policy, I am sure Comair could do the same. But you are right, some of our pilots might not want to go over, and that is their decision. It would be nice for them to be able to if they wanted to, and I bet some would. Thank you for the clarification on your stance.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Skull-One]

I had a furloughed Delta guy as my F/O last week. He kept his seniority number at DAL. Same with an AA furloughee a week prior. If CHQ can do it, I dare say CMR can.

 

[General Lee]

You would think so Skull, but they haven't. You guys at Chataqua and ASA will have an easier time getting on with Delta (if you want to) after this is all over. But, I have been told by Comair pilots that they do not want to leave Comair. Well, ok then! Most of our Furloughs are disgusted with Comair's policy and wouldn't want to go over there anyways.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

stillaboo,

Where the heck do you think a lot of us came from before the majors? I think most of us are WELL aware of what you have to go through to get to a "major" job. We have DONE IT!

Good luck and hang in there.

 

[stillaboo]

I know where you guys came from, but I think mainline often loses interest in what goes on at the regional level. If you had more of a vested interest to stay involved, like if you knew you were headed back to the right seat of a 1900 at first year pay, you might pressure ALPA to be a bit more proactive.

If you haven't noticed, regional guys can't go more than 5 minutes without some infighting, blaming other carriers for forcing them to vote a certain way. I think it would do regionals some good to have mainline chill them out, like Marsellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction does to Jules. A refresher:

"You aint' got no problem, Jules. I'm on the mutha' f**ker. Go back in there and chill them nig**'s out and wait for 'The Wolf' who should be coming directly."

'Jules' is the regionals, Marsellus is mainline, and ALPA is 'The Wolf'. THAT is how it should work!

As long as mainline just thinks 'Dam, I am so glad I'm not flying for a regional anymore!', nothing will change. All pilots must work together towards a common goal. As long as mainliners think of their former job as second-rate, it will continue to pay 2nd rate with 2nd rate workrules. How can a regional pilot expect managment to give him a raise to a level consumate with mainline if mainline pilots don't even think he deserves it?

We all know how to get ALPA in gear. And it aint' a bunch of RJ's that's gonna' do it. Heck, US just gave Mesa 30 more jets that their furloughs could have flown b/c they couldn't come to an agreement on how much to pay the furloughs.

Regionals need leadership from mainline. Maybe THAT's why mainline is paid more to fly the same size plane.

-Boo!

 

[FLB717]

Mainline Pilots eat thier young, and the Regionals know it

 

[bigD]

stillaboo - I have to finish your Pulp Fiction quote:

"You sendin' in da Wolf?"

"Happy now, motherf*cker?"

"Sheeeeeit negro! That's all you had to say!"


LOL...what a great movie.

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,

So, mainline pilots eat their young, huh? With all of the recent furloughs, it seems like mainline pilots are becoming extinct. That is a bad thing, since mainline pilots usually have better work rules, better retirement, and better pay. It would behoove everyone to try to keep those mainline jobs around, not give everything away to LCCs or regionals that do not preserve those higher paying jobs. Just as airlines are saying, "We can't compete with the LCC's and have to reduce costs..." things are seeming to get better for the industry. The economy is coming back and terrorism is dying down. (for the moment anyways) Mainline jobs keep the pay bar at a respectable level, and that is what everyone wants, something to shoot for to better their lives. If it were up to management, all of us would be paid a lot less and have to LIKE IT OR LEAVE.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetdriven]

Mesa is the reason!!! Having to compete with the airline where the pilots are willing to whore themselves out at Wal Mart wages. A CEO that likes to have a 1% profit margin for market share, it's hard to compete with that S#$thole airline, no offence to you professionals that voted no.

PSA just voted in lower jet rates than ours, some are by $3.00 per hour or more. Why dont you point your flamethrower in their direction.

Also, we are still getting more U flying so if the lowest bidder wins then why didnt PSA get the -700's????

Somehow it must still be all our fault..

 

[FLB717]

General

Yup! A mainline guy will eat his (stockholders ownem not the Mainline Pilots) Regional Pilots for breakfast and thier Junior guy for Lunch and be hungry by Dinner. Look around and see how ALPA has helped USAir vs Peidmont et al. I looking at the facts. If you want to end all the cuts at the Majors and growth at the lower levels make it one list, but that would be to difficult for may so they would rather fight.

As far as LCC destroying the market, BS. My big bad LCC hold a large 1% of the total domestic market. Im sure your scared. being from the Southeast I as a small child I remeber this piss ant airline from ATL that most thought was just a upstart. You may have heard of it ? It started as crop dusting outfit and called itself Delta. Well as the story unfolded a kind guy from that airline (Duffy,Alpa president ,DAL Pilot) told this other airline (Eastern) to hold Lorenzo's feet to the fire, if you go under we will give you a job through ALPA at other carriers (Flying the Line part II). Well when EAL folded can you tell who grew fast and who didnt get jobs. And I believe they (DAL)were a much lower cost carrier (LCC). This being relative under the CAB and then under deregulation. (thanks Ted Kennedy). The moral is a LCC today will not be tomorrow. And some day they to will fail just like EAL, Pan AM, Brannif I and II, National, and maybe one more before this is over. As far as Song goes I wish you luck with it. The one question I have for you is what is the break even loadfactor for Song and when they cut Pilot pay how will that really help. By the way my LCC 10 years Captain makes nearly the same as a AA/UAL Captain and they are still bleeding money so I dont believe we have greatly lowered the bar, nor is Pilot pay the holy grail of airline survival.

Yet I have heard of no pilot group that holds it Managm,ent to pay cuts? You can bet that I sure would, with a snap back. Any way its the truth as i see it.

It late please disregard any spellinh errors.

 

[stillaboo]

I agree with both FBL717 and da' General.

"It would behoove everyone to try to keep those mainline jobs around, not give everything away to LCCs or regionals that do not preserve those higher paying jobs."

True. Sure, eventually that large mainliner may have to go the way of EAL, as another LCC raises it's rate to that of a mainline regular, but who do you think is setting that upward pressure on the LCC's costs? The fat mainliner. And, in exchange for pulling pilot comp through the roof and sacraficing themselves for the greater good, the pilots of the fat mainliner should be given jobs at the former LCC, who then slowly morphs into the fat mainliner. Let the cycle then repeat.

I'm all in favor for DALPA to cost itself out of existence, provided that the guys who sacraficed themselves are then all immediately compted out of the strike fund and given priority hiring at another mainline (or LCC if they chose). That's what the union should do for its memebers, instead of facilitating the growth of lower-paying regional jobs (the US CRJs going to Mesa). Now, getting DL pilots to go along with this is a whole 'nother matter.

What say you, General?

-Boo!

 

[cathal]

Hey guys and guys, I realize that this is a Delta family thread I'm getting into, but over here at Mesaba (XJ), we're going through the exact same stuff. We're being asked to take Mesa's contract, but no one's budging. Having read the entire thread, I want to point something out- it is very dangerous to put all mainline pilots in one group. Not all of them hate us, and at NWA there's a growing feeling that we all need to be on the same list. Someone said it earlier, but let me reiterate it, that we all need to stay together, and not concede a single thing. The more we concede, the more we make our management rich. Our airlines don't sink or swim on our labor costs, it all comes down to good business. ALPA's great, but wouldn't it be better if we were truly united? The more of us crying out for one list, the less people there will be to undercut us and make us feel bad for trying to live a lifestyle that we deserve for doing this job. Unfortunately, someone's probably going to have to almost shut their airline down before this happens. But when it does happen, when someone really gets onelist, everyone else will be right behind them. Or so I hope and pray. We're all screwed if we don't stick together.

 

[General Lee]

Boo and FLB,

Yeah, I can see your points about EAL and ALPA etc. I hope that ALPA has learned its lessons, but we shall see. I think with the huge expansion of the LCC's and the regionals, ALPA is just trying to maintain some sort of payscales and scope for the Major level----since they receive money as a percentage from dues. It will be interesting.

Cathal,

I am in favor of one list, but not with date of hire seniority. That is just the way it is. If Comair and ASA mixed their two lists and them approved a Staple onto the bottom of Delta's--I'd vote for that. A lot of the ASA/Comair guys believe they should get credit just because they have flown "Delta passengers" for the past XX years. But, they never tried to get an interview and try the old fashion way, like everyone else. But, if they wouldn't mind a staple, it would easily pass (and no, it wouldn't be implemented until after all the furloughs got back...which would be fair to all parties). But, Delta management probably wouldn't go for it. Good luck with your negotiations---I have many friends over there too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[stillaboo]

I don't understand personally why (other than ego and failure to anticipate the market) mainline ever refused RJ flying in the first place. On another thread, someone had called that view, in essence, 'ignorant' b/c they were not fully educated on the reasons. OK, fine. That's me. Enlighten me please.

If Comair and ASA mixed their two lists and them approved a Staple onto the bottom of Delta's--I'd vote for that. But, Delta management probably wouldn't go for it.

B/c I'm 'ignorant' (and apparently I'm not the only one ), I don't see the problem with this . . . at least at Delta.

But if CMR and ASA do it (I have a feeling CMR wouldn't facilitate this), all they'd have to do is out vote the bottom 40% of their lists, the FO's that would invaribly face the possiblity of furlough if DL needs to furlough (perhaps if they could keep their pay but get the DL contract otherwise - the no-furlough clause, for instance, which manamgent would certainly balk at!). I have a feeling the CMR and ASA are gonna' lose some flying to another regional.

CMR really burned DL with that strike, but only b/c DL has all their eggs in too few baskets. Now, what do you do with SKYW. They're gonna be pissed that ASA and CMR could hop onto the DL list, but how do you integrate them when some are flying DL and some UA? If someone could sort that out (and how to outvote all the guys on the bottom of the list at the regionals) you'd have something real.

-Boo!

 

[cathal]

Yes, Mr. Lee, I am talking about a staple to the bottom. I know there are some capts. at regionals who feel that they belong in the left seat of whales, but they're the ones who interviewed and failed for the same obvious personality defects.
As far as Delta having too many eggs in one basket, that's the approach we'd be taking if we all pushed for one list. We only give them one basket. Someone said it earlier here- the more pilot groups, the more whoipsawing.
Staple me to the bottom, with fences, to the bottom of NWA's list. Shuffle mesaba and pinnacle together with DOH, and when all the NWA mainliners are back, we'll all be together on the same list. Cripes, we're all good enough to code share, we all pass the same tests, fly the same sort of equipment in the same weather to the same airports, why can't we figure out that we need to get ourselves together?
And, as far as knocking ALPA, lets remember that we're all members, that it's descions are made by it's members, and if it needs fixing, then complaining about it here sure as heck won't help. All this does is make the public think we don't know how to best help ourselves.

 

[General Lee]

Cathal and Boo,

I am all for a staple, and that would be after all of the furloughs come back so the ASA/Comair guys don't think they would be automatically on the street. I like job security, and I am sure those guys would like a nice retirement package. Yes, I have heard that some of those senior guys over there believe they should be flying bigger aircraft ahead of people already on the senority list. Wasn't that the case at Freedom Air?

And, I am sure whomever decided at ALPA that RJ's shouldn't be a part of the majors is kicking themselves right now. They should have integrated them in a long time ago. If they had, there would be more people at the Majors with more people having good retirements eventually. That's really what it's all about---we all work really hard to get to that eventual point where we can say, "Fu@K it!" and retire to some nice golf course in South Florida and look at the babes on waves. That's my plan.

Bye Bye--General Lee