You have GOT to be kidding me....

[dispatchguy]

Pilots, well captains at a minimum, should be required to sit an entire shift in dispatch - make it a part of their recurrent.

We have to sit and spend some time in the flight deck (which I absolutely love to do), they should be required to do the same.

I have been to one airline that required, as a part of upgrade training, that those going through their first upgrade had to spend a shift in dispatch to see the other side of the radio - I fully support that. Makes for great CRM/DRM.

I have also been to other carriers that didnt want pilots in dispatch at all for whatever reason - we were just a voice on the phone or radio, or words on an ACARS printout.

Those pilots who do spend some time in dispatch usually come away with a much greater notion of what we actually do in a 10 hour shift. Make it a bad weather day with a lot of crew reroutes, missed approaches, or BINGO fuel diversions - not those rare days where the airline seems to be on ottopylit

 

[onewithwings]

Pilots, well captains at a minimum, should be required to sit an entire shift in dispatch - make it a part of their recurrent.

We have to sit and spend some time in the flight deck (which I absolutely love to do), they should be required to do the same.

Good point. Everytime I jumpseat for my recurrent and attend CRM/DRM, I encourage the crews to spend a day in my shoes.​

After 10+ years dispatching, I can count on one hand the number of pilots that have R.S.V.P.'d that invitation. The crews that have sat with me, have a tremendous respect for what we do. Often times, it's a huge eye opener for them. I would like to see all Captains new to the left seat have this as a training requirement.​

JM2C​

 

[ss9e]

Pilots, well captains at a minimum, should be required to sit an entire shift in dispatch - make it a part of their recurrent.

the pilots at fedex sit with us as part of their recurrent every year. however, it's only for an hour or so. i think it should at least be an entire shift.

 

[clr4theapch]

I agree with all point made here, the levels of responsibility are different from a physical point of view no doubt.. but the regs address a different responsibility in 121.533.. and that is what we the dispatchers are talking about.. I would much rather have a truly mutual agreement with my PIC's than have mutual distrust or annoyance... I think we should get paid a % along the same kind of scale as a captain...

Oh yea my fine feathered friends, please dont forget many of us where or are pilots too..

On a another point regarding pay: Consider that the fact that Pilots make up the Largest number of employees on the Payroll and dispatchers are probably the smallest number on the books. If the company were to increase in pay rates a few dollars an hour to the pilots that would be a HUGH hit to the bottom line, whereas the same increase to the dispatchers would be nothing more than a blip on the bean counters spread sheet...

Unlike pilots working there way up the ladder to captains and their pay rates accordingly, dispatchers are pretty much thrown into the fire right after they get comp checked... our responsibility on day one, is the same as it will be the day before we retire ( as far as the regs go) sure we might have the opportunnity to move into a management or ATC or some other similar position down the road, but these positions are few and far between... so we have to wait on scheduled pay increases in some union contract which is many cases really suck...

Anyway, I wont dispatch anymore because of the stupid pay rates, and long if not impossible commutes, I have been interviewed many times in recent years and have nicely made this the point for my turn down and is why I have not returned to the dispatch ranks, having moved to other airline trades. I am just one person doing this, more people must do the same as well as educating the new students out there of the "real" airline world to which they wish to enter, and not believe the school hipe and BS of makeing 6 figures as a dispatcher.. Not going to ever happen kids...

In any case everyone needs to join together on this issue, as long as the company's sees the in-fighting between ranks, they know they have nothing to worry about and can justify anything.. JMHO

 

[Squirrel29]

So what should starting rates be for a Dispatcher? While we are at it what should the pay rates be for a 5, 10 year dispatcher?

Realistic some one coming out of school with no experience. Should they be making $32k-35K a year starting out?

 

[clr4theapch]

Sure it should... the biggest problem I have seen is the cost of living vs the pay for new hires.. i.e. IAD, LAS, JFK, MIA, MCO... EVEN $32 TO 35 is tough in these cities..hard to pay for a decent apartment along with the high cost of gas and food....

Go to MEM, IND, CVG, CMH, DAY ETC.. its cheaper to live but the pay is grossly under $35K! so where did one gain by going there? ... how is one to make a living, bring up a family, or be happy when you can make the same money working for some retailers..

Looking at the 5 year pay scales is not much better but getting there...10 year pay is ok but most carriers even topped out in 19 years only gets you to the $50's. In this day and age, $50's is middle income at best..

Look there are only about 1800 to 2000 actively working dispatchers in the country... campare that to the 10's of thousands of pilots. We are a very small group indeed but we carry and very high burden of the companies responsibilities and control a large portion of the income on a day to day basis..

I think a decent starting wage should be $35 to $40K and then be in the Mid $50s by the 5th year and the $70's by the 10th.. dream world? by todays standards it is... but should it be this way? Pay should be based on the level of responsibility a position carries and its impact to the bottom line.. again JMHO..

 

[Squirrel29]

I think a decent starting wage should be $35 to $40K and then be in the Mid $50s by the 5th year and the $70's by the 10th.. dream world? by todays standards it is... but should it be this way? Pay should be based on the level of responsibility a position carries and its impact to the bottom line.. again JMHO..

I agree with that scale not asking for the world but it is a decent salary. Where I work "top out" is $52,000 in about 10 years or 8 years if you get a merit raise and then it is 3% after that with no top out.

 

[airbrush]

I agree, clr4theapch....those numbers would be reasonable. Unfortunately, the current philosophy in the airlines seems to be hire only young folks who have 3 roommates to help cover the rent, and hope they move on before they start costing too much. If you have the audacity to grow up, get married, and start a family, and buy a house, well, you can't expect THE COMPANY to pay for that lifestyle....

So what's the answer? If you look on the Internet, some companies advertise "contract dispatch" services (i.e., Jeppeson & Skyplan). I know there are some hurdles of FAA approval before this would be possible, but the way airlines are currently outsourcing maintenance, ground handling, gate workers, etc., if they can find a legal way, will they do it? And, given the current lousy state of affairs, would this necessarily be a bad thing for us?

I think it would be a very sad development...I really enjoyed the camraderie of being on the same team as the crews, all pulling for the same goal. But with Northwest trying to outsource all the F/As on their Pacific routes a couple of years ago to foreign "contractors", and with United selling off their United Services maintenance division (while a friend of mine dispatches 747s to BEIJING for maintenance), is our profession next? If so, would a contractor possibly be able offer better salaries and a better location than what is currently out there?

My crystal ball is in the shop, but I wonder.....

 

[shooter]

I agree with that scale not asking for the world but it is a decent salary. Where I work "top out" is $52,000 in about 10 years or 8 years if you get a merit raise and then it is 3% after that with no top out.

Keep in mind that we are paid professionals and we should be paid according to our craft. So a Dispatcher at airline X does pretty much the same job as Dispatcher at airline Y. Pay should be comparable correct? Well we all know it’s not so let’s look at that problem because other than just saying corporate greed, that is where the problem is. When Dispatcher at AX is working a desk of 50 flights and all the aircraft have 30 seats and Dispatcher at AY is working the same number of flights and there are over 100 seats in every flight, you can see the revenue difference. So AX can afford to pay its Dispatcher a higher salary and as a result should get the best experienced professionals because of it. But like I said earlier the job does not change if it is 1 passenger or 500 of them in each flight. So the problem as I see it is not the top salary because I think a commuter level Dispatcher getting $50,000-$55,000 in 10 years is okay. Sure it could be better but you can raise a family with that as a professional. If more money is what they want they can take their experience to another airline to preserve the basic career elevation that seems to be taken advantage of these days. The problem we have IMO is the starting wages are just not livable, no where near what a professional should get paid or deserve to get paid, it is down right insulting and we should all figure out what to do about it. There is NO WAY, I will repeat that for the drama, NO WAY a Dispatcher should get paid below $32,000 in a “cheap” city to live and there are cost of living calculators to adjust for increased cost places like SFO, ORD, JFK, etcetera etcetera. We are skilled labor here people, not unskilled walk in the door at Lowes or Costco labor. (That get paid more than the wages they pay starting Dispatchers I will add.)

Am I out of line in that thought process? As a professional we should be able to afford to go to bed in a safe neighborhood, provide for our family, have defined goals that are attainable, have a career path that makes one proud to say they are part of a team that provides the safety, legality and profitability of each and every flight our employers entrust us with. They should provide a salary to allow Dispatchers to provide the same level of quality living for their family that they expect from the Dispatcher for each of their flights. And each Dispatcher that is starting or currently below $32,000/yr needs to march in and tell your managers you all deserve better and they should respect you and your work to reflect that for your ability to have that in their life. Not one at a time, but together. If your boss ever gave you the speech about open door policy there it is.

Down right insulting I tell you.

 

[clr4theapch]

Well Squrriel29, the outsourcing for dispatchers was recently defeated by the FAA with the Jeppesen Plan to do exactly what you spoke of... they debated this for a few months last year after a very through presentation whereby dispatchers would have made a respectable starting pay and benefits with a planned pay scale pushing up to into the 70's.

Most dispatchers on here and other web sites were against this program and made alot of noise with their POI's, the ADF sent staff members to Washington in opposition because of the operational control relationship between a pilot and a non-employee DX from Jep...So As of now outsourcing ADX is dead..

Shooter brings up some good points on differing pay scales. I also would add that all the different union contracts out there have a ripple effect on everyones pay scales.. so if airline X signs a 12 year contract which pays a low wage, it effects the negociating power of the union over at airline Z or others trying to get better wages for their ADX.
The effect perpetuates itself forever as none of the contracts start or end at the same time.

Another big problem that has been around the airlines since the stone age is when a person wants to move to another company he/she must start over at the bottom of the pay scale.. this is a big big problem to me. Sure I can understand being at the bottom of the senioity list, thats ok, but to start at the minimum pay scale? That sucks...

To counteract this maybe dispatchers should have a national Union which addresses and dictates the mimum wage scale each person will earn no matter where he/she works based on years of experience, The other benefits should be close to the same as well. This way you dont get hurt when you move to another city, you carry your pay rate with you.. Just an idea..

Think of the other national unions, like for ATC, actors, writers, sports, electrical and plumbing trades, why not Flight dispatchers?

It would not take allot of work to organize a national dispatchers union that would establish this trend. The ADF is more of a trade organization which does nothing for the wage gaps or other arcane ailrine industry policies.

A National Union would need ALL dispatcher from all airlines to be members to work. To assure the airline companies that individual dispatchers are proficient for their years of experience, testing addition training could be part of our requirements, there could be specialized courses in the different flight planning software used and the latest industry upgrades.

Many good things would come from such a union, it's pie in the sky for now, but something has to change or history just repeats itself.

Its just another idea, we all have them.

 

[airbrush]

I hadn't heard that the outsourcing issue had been decided by the FAA...that's good news. Of course, that's only one aspect of the overall situation.

Hasn't ALPA been discussing the concept of a single seniority list for number of years? I don't think they've been able to pull that together because of various other unions at different carriers, and frequent conflict between the agendas and priorities of senior vs. junior pilots (like the recent change to the Age 60 rule). It would require trying to organize dispatcherss represented by TWU, IBT, Teamsters, and who knows who else. What we would have to our advantage would be a far smaller group to organize.

As mentioned, the current system really sucks in that it requires even highly experienced dispatchers to start at the very bottom of the payscales if they choose to (or are forced to) change airlines. I'm sure the airlines use this to their advantage, figuring that once people have gained enough seniority, they'll accept inadequate contracts because it's still better than going elsewhere.

I am right now in that position of trying to start over...but no "opportunity" pays enough to offset the cost of living, not to mention the cost of the move itself (a wife and three kids generate lots of stuff!). I would literally have to accept the same pay I made in 1990 (before I was married, before kids, before a mortgage, before $3/gallon gas, and not adjusted for 17 years of inflation) and accept a higher cost of living than where I am. I just doesn't work, so all of my experience goes to waste while the airlines complain that they can't get good people.

I would really like to see this situation change, but with the possible next round of airline mergers coming soon, and the general volatility of the economy, I think it will be this way for a while yet. Remember, this is still the business that pays new F/Os between $13-$20K after they spend $100K on college.

 

[wms]

No I wouldnt, for they arent part of the Joint Operational Control responsibility relationship.

It is CAP = Dispatcher.

They want a raise, either garner more seniority in their seat, transition to a bigger airplane, or upgrade, simple as that.

Except if things go wrong, the FO dies.

 

[airbrush]

wms:

We all understand that, and we all respect that. No disrespect intended, but that's also a known and accepted aspect of the job, one even we non-professional pilots willingly take for the privilege of flying. And we're also talking about a business that is statistically safer than the risk we all take driving to work each day. We're flying to JFK here, not Schweinfurt with no fighter escort.

The issue is appropriate compensation and respect for professional work, be it pilot or dispatcher. I don't expect to make what a senior captain makes; but does it make sense for me to either share responsibility with 15 captains simultaneously, or oversee the airline operation where 50-60 captains are all flying at once, while getting paid less than a senior F/O?

 

[WalterSobchak]

Except if things go wrong, the FO dies.

Once again...this little comment is getting old. I think we all know what is at stake...we don't need to hear it from 5 different pilots a day.

I don't expect to make what a senior captain makes; but does it make sense for me to either share responsibility with 15 captains simultaneously, or oversee the airline operation where 50-60 captains are all flying at once, while getting paid less than a senior F/O?

Exactly...

 

[clr4theapch]

Ok Pilots.. I was a former pilot in the 80's & 90's... Yea I paid alot to get my ratings too and spent many hours get the crap scared out of me by students while I built time enough to apply to the airlines... no accelerated training programs or PFT stuff existed then.. When I finally got my shot to go fly for an airline I was prepard for the salary shock, it did suck..BUT I knew it was going to get MUCH better in a year of two when I made probation and built more time in the right seat.. By the 4th year I was easily making $50K and then got picked up by a so called Major airline in my 6th year of flying the line.. My pay dropped once again, but I already knew that my second year pay was going to be larger than my best regional pay.. etc etc.... Then a health issue comes along and thats that, no more medical...( no I am not looking for sympathy) thats life... anyway.

I bring this up to point out that the dispatchers DO NOT have this kind of pay raise to look forward to.. I repeat.. there is no big raises to look forward too like the flight crews. Its apples and oranges!!

Not even if a dispatcher gets on with an LCC like Airtran of JB, SWA.. they all require 5 to 8 years to even have a chance.. for instance.. say a dispatcher from ASA in his/her 5 or 6th year is earning around $50K ( I might be a bit off but not by much) and lets say this person gets an offer to dispatch for Airtran.. he/she must start at the bottom of the pay scale which is around $29K... and will take another 3+ years to get back to where they were at ASA..

So pilots, please I have been there and done that.. this issue we (the dispatchers) are discussing has no parallel to your pay grades and we are not degrading the work you do... this is all about us being paid based on the responsibilities and direct contribution we make to the airlines operation on any given day.. pay us what we are worth.... If I were the GO's Janitor I would understand making $10 to $11 an hour...

Again, I personally will not bring my years of flying and dispatch experience to an airline and prostitute these skills for $30,000 a year or less to start... I made this abundantly clear(nicely and PC) with each Airline hr rep I spoke with during the hiring process.. This of course is not going to make a difference, but if more people would stand up and do the same, if there were a national Organization/ Union setting standards, then the ball game would be much different as the supply of dispatchers dryied up...