You have GOT to be kidding me....

[clr4theapch]

Sure it should... the biggest problem I have seen is the cost of living vs the pay for new hires.. i.e. IAD, LAS, JFK, MIA, MCO... EVEN $32 TO 35 is tough in these cities..hard to pay for a decent apartment along with the high cost of gas and food....

Go to MEM, IND, CVG, CMH, DAY ETC.. its cheaper to live but the pay is grossly under $35K! so where did one gain by going there? ... how is one to make a living, bring up a family, or be happy when you can make the same money working for some retailers..

Looking at the 5 year pay scales is not much better but getting there...10 year pay is ok but most carriers even topped out in 19 years only gets you to the $50's. In this day and age, $50's is middle income at best..

Look there are only about 1800 to 2000 actively working dispatchers in the country... campare that to the 10's of thousands of pilots. We are a very small group indeed but we carry and very high burden of the companies responsibilities and control a large portion of the income on a day to day basis..

I think a decent starting wage should be $35 to $40K and then be in the Mid $50s by the 5th year and the $70's by the 10th.. dream world? by todays standards it is... but should it be this way? Pay should be based on the level of responsibility a position carries and its impact to the bottom line.. again JMHO..

 

[Squirrel29]

I think a decent starting wage should be $35 to $40K and then be in the Mid $50s by the 5th year and the $70's by the 10th.. dream world? by todays standards it is... but should it be this way? Pay should be based on the level of responsibility a position carries and its impact to the bottom line.. again JMHO..

I agree with that scale not asking for the world but it is a decent salary. Where I work "top out" is $52,000 in about 10 years or 8 years if you get a merit raise and then it is 3% after that with no top out.

 

[airbrush]

I agree, clr4theapch....those numbers would be reasonable. Unfortunately, the current philosophy in the airlines seems to be hire only young folks who have 3 roommates to help cover the rent, and hope they move on before they start costing too much. If you have the audacity to grow up, get married, and start a family, and buy a house, well, you can't expect THE COMPANY to pay for that lifestyle....

So what's the answer? If you look on the Internet, some companies advertise "contract dispatch" services (i.e., Jeppeson & Skyplan). I know there are some hurdles of FAA approval before this would be possible, but the way airlines are currently outsourcing maintenance, ground handling, gate workers, etc., if they can find a legal way, will they do it? And, given the current lousy state of affairs, would this necessarily be a bad thing for us?

I think it would be a very sad development...I really enjoyed the camraderie of being on the same team as the crews, all pulling for the same goal. But with Northwest trying to outsource all the F/As on their Pacific routes a couple of years ago to foreign "contractors", and with United selling off their United Services maintenance division (while a friend of mine dispatches 747s to BEIJING for maintenance), is our profession next? If so, would a contractor possibly be able offer better salaries and a better location than what is currently out there?

My crystal ball is in the shop, but I wonder.....

 

[shooter]

I agree with that scale not asking for the world but it is a decent salary. Where I work "top out" is $52,000 in about 10 years or 8 years if you get a merit raise and then it is 3% after that with no top out.

Keep in mind that we are paid professionals and we should be paid according to our craft. So a Dispatcher at airline X does pretty much the same job as Dispatcher at airline Y. Pay should be comparable correct? Well we all know it’s not so let’s look at that problem because other than just saying corporate greed, that is where the problem is. When Dispatcher at AX is working a desk of 50 flights and all the aircraft have 30 seats and Dispatcher at AY is working the same number of flights and there are over 100 seats in every flight, you can see the revenue difference. So AX can afford to pay its Dispatcher a higher salary and as a result should get the best experienced professionals because of it. But like I said earlier the job does not change if it is 1 passenger or 500 of them in each flight. So the problem as I see it is not the top salary because I think a commuter level Dispatcher getting $50,000-$55,000 in 10 years is okay. Sure it could be better but you can raise a family with that as a professional. If more money is what they want they can take their experience to another airline to preserve the basic career elevation that seems to be taken advantage of these days. The problem we have IMO is the starting wages are just not livable, no where near what a professional should get paid or deserve to get paid, it is down right insulting and we should all figure out what to do about it. There is NO WAY, I will repeat that for the drama, NO WAY a Dispatcher should get paid below $32,000 in a “cheap” city to live and there are cost of living calculators to adjust for increased cost places like SFO, ORD, JFK, etcetera etcetera. We are skilled labor here people, not unskilled walk in the door at Lowes or Costco labor. (That get paid more than the wages they pay starting Dispatchers I will add.)

Am I out of line in that thought process? As a professional we should be able to afford to go to bed in a safe neighborhood, provide for our family, have defined goals that are attainable, have a career path that makes one proud to say they are part of a team that provides the safety, legality and profitability of each and every flight our employers entrust us with. They should provide a salary to allow Dispatchers to provide the same level of quality living for their family that they expect from the Dispatcher for each of their flights. And each Dispatcher that is starting or currently below $32,000/yr needs to march in and tell your managers you all deserve better and they should respect you and your work to reflect that for your ability to have that in their life. Not one at a time, but together. If your boss ever gave you the speech about open door policy there it is.

Down right insulting I tell you.

 

[clr4theapch]

Well Squrriel29, the outsourcing for dispatchers was recently defeated by the FAA with the Jeppesen Plan to do exactly what you spoke of... they debated this for a few months last year after a very through presentation whereby dispatchers would have made a respectable starting pay and benefits with a planned pay scale pushing up to into the 70's.

Most dispatchers on here and other web sites were against this program and made alot of noise with their POI's, the ADF sent staff members to Washington in opposition because of the operational control relationship between a pilot and a non-employee DX from Jep...So As of now outsourcing ADX is dead..

Shooter brings up some good points on differing pay scales. I also would add that all the different union contracts out there have a ripple effect on everyones pay scales.. so if airline X signs a 12 year contract which pays a low wage, it effects the negociating power of the union over at airline Z or others trying to get better wages for their ADX.
The effect perpetuates itself forever as none of the contracts start or end at the same time.

Another big problem that has been around the airlines since the stone age is when a person wants to move to another company he/she must start over at the bottom of the pay scale.. this is a big big problem to me. Sure I can understand being at the bottom of the senioity list, thats ok, but to start at the minimum pay scale? That sucks...

To counteract this maybe dispatchers should have a national Union which addresses and dictates the mimum wage scale each person will earn no matter where he/she works based on years of experience, The other benefits should be close to the same as well. This way you dont get hurt when you move to another city, you carry your pay rate with you.. Just an idea..

Think of the other national unions, like for ATC, actors, writers, sports, electrical and plumbing trades, why not Flight dispatchers?

It would not take allot of work to organize a national dispatchers union that would establish this trend. The ADF is more of a trade organization which does nothing for the wage gaps or other arcane ailrine industry policies.

A National Union would need ALL dispatcher from all airlines to be members to work. To assure the airline companies that individual dispatchers are proficient for their years of experience, testing addition training could be part of our requirements, there could be specialized courses in the different flight planning software used and the latest industry upgrades.

Many good things would come from such a union, it's pie in the sky for now, but something has to change or history just repeats itself.

Its just another idea, we all have them.

 

[airbrush]

I hadn't heard that the outsourcing issue had been decided by the FAA...that's good news. Of course, that's only one aspect of the overall situation.

Hasn't ALPA been discussing the concept of a single seniority list for number of years? I don't think they've been able to pull that together because of various other unions at different carriers, and frequent conflict between the agendas and priorities of senior vs. junior pilots (like the recent change to the Age 60 rule). It would require trying to organize dispatcherss represented by TWU, IBT, Teamsters, and who knows who else. What we would have to our advantage would be a far smaller group to organize.

As mentioned, the current system really sucks in that it requires even highly experienced dispatchers to start at the very bottom of the payscales if they choose to (or are forced to) change airlines. I'm sure the airlines use this to their advantage, figuring that once people have gained enough seniority, they'll accept inadequate contracts because it's still better than going elsewhere.

I am right now in that position of trying to start over...but no "opportunity" pays enough to offset the cost of living, not to mention the cost of the move itself (a wife and three kids generate lots of stuff!). I would literally have to accept the same pay I made in 1990 (before I was married, before kids, before a mortgage, before $3/gallon gas, and not adjusted for 17 years of inflation) and accept a higher cost of living than where I am. I just doesn't work, so all of my experience goes to waste while the airlines complain that they can't get good people.

I would really like to see this situation change, but with the possible next round of airline mergers coming soon, and the general volatility of the economy, I think it will be this way for a while yet. Remember, this is still the business that pays new F/Os between $13-$20K after they spend $100K on college.

 

[wms]

No I wouldnt, for they arent part of the Joint Operational Control responsibility relationship.

It is CAP = Dispatcher.

They want a raise, either garner more seniority in their seat, transition to a bigger airplane, or upgrade, simple as that.

Except if things go wrong, the FO dies.

 

[airbrush]

wms:

We all understand that, and we all respect that. No disrespect intended, but that's also a known and accepted aspect of the job, one even we non-professional pilots willingly take for the privilege of flying. And we're also talking about a business that is statistically safer than the risk we all take driving to work each day. We're flying to JFK here, not Schweinfurt with no fighter escort.

The issue is appropriate compensation and respect for professional work, be it pilot or dispatcher. I don't expect to make what a senior captain makes; but does it make sense for me to either share responsibility with 15 captains simultaneously, or oversee the airline operation where 50-60 captains are all flying at once, while getting paid less than a senior F/O?

 

[WalterSobchak]

Except if things go wrong, the FO dies.

Once again...this little comment is getting old. I think we all know what is at stake...we don't need to hear it from 5 different pilots a day.

I don't expect to make what a senior captain makes; but does it make sense for me to either share responsibility with 15 captains simultaneously, or oversee the airline operation where 50-60 captains are all flying at once, while getting paid less than a senior F/O?

Exactly...

 

[clr4theapch]

Ok Pilots.. I was a former pilot in the 80's & 90's... Yea I paid alot to get my ratings too and spent many hours get the crap scared out of me by students while I built time enough to apply to the airlines... no accelerated training programs or PFT stuff existed then.. When I finally got my shot to go fly for an airline I was prepard for the salary shock, it did suck..BUT I knew it was going to get MUCH better in a year of two when I made probation and built more time in the right seat.. By the 4th year I was easily making $50K and then got picked up by a so called Major airline in my 6th year of flying the line.. My pay dropped once again, but I already knew that my second year pay was going to be larger than my best regional pay.. etc etc.... Then a health issue comes along and thats that, no more medical...( no I am not looking for sympathy) thats life... anyway.

I bring this up to point out that the dispatchers DO NOT have this kind of pay raise to look forward to.. I repeat.. there is no big raises to look forward too like the flight crews. Its apples and oranges!!

Not even if a dispatcher gets on with an LCC like Airtran of JB, SWA.. they all require 5 to 8 years to even have a chance.. for instance.. say a dispatcher from ASA in his/her 5 or 6th year is earning around $50K ( I might be a bit off but not by much) and lets say this person gets an offer to dispatch for Airtran.. he/she must start at the bottom of the pay scale which is around $29K... and will take another 3+ years to get back to where they were at ASA..

So pilots, please I have been there and done that.. this issue we (the dispatchers) are discussing has no parallel to your pay grades and we are not degrading the work you do... this is all about us being paid based on the responsibilities and direct contribution we make to the airlines operation on any given day.. pay us what we are worth.... If I were the GO's Janitor I would understand making $10 to $11 an hour...

Again, I personally will not bring my years of flying and dispatch experience to an airline and prostitute these skills for $30,000 a year or less to start... I made this abundantly clear(nicely and PC) with each Airline hr rep I spoke with during the hiring process.. This of course is not going to make a difference, but if more people would stand up and do the same, if there were a national Organization/ Union setting standards, then the ball game would be much different as the supply of dispatchers dryied up...

 

[SKC]

deleted.

 

[dispatchguy]

The ADF is more of a trade organization which does nothing for the wage gaps or other arcane ailrine industry policies.

Actually, I think that is in their bylaws, to stay out of union-esque stuff.

I dont think a national union is it either.

 

[shooter]

Again, I personally will not bring my years of flying and dispatch experience to an airline and prostitute these skills for $30,000 a year or less to start... I made this abundantly clear(nicely and PC) with each Airline hr rep I spoke with during the hiring process.. This of course is not going to make a difference, but if more people would stand up and do the same, if there were a national Organization/ Union setting standards, then the ball game would be much different as the supply of dispatchers dryied up...

ditto. I like what I do and who I do it for, but this is may last aviation job if airlines dont turn things around. Too much money to made outside this industry to whore myself for the wages they are starting out with. If I retire from here, great. If something happens I'm outa' here.

 

[clr4theapch]

ADF, No way.. But is there an answer?

Actually, I think that is in their bylaws, to stay out of union-esque stuff.

I dont think a national union is it either.

You are correct I am sure... I would NOT expect a group made up of almost entirely senior mainline dispatchers, quite happy with their salaries and the "this is the way things have always been" attitudes.

Why should they care, they got there's! They do good work in other areas of safety and rubbing elbows in DC, I guess, but I just don't hear many changes comming out of their office.

A national union may not be the answer, a single senority list may not be it either, but I think you Might agree that the way things are now is really F.Up with no change in sight..

What do think would make things better for the dispatcher profession and stop the downward spiral of wages, benefits and respect?

 

[airbrush]

What do think would make things better for the dispatcher profession and stop the downward spiral of wages, benefits and respect?

I really wish I knew. At this point in the game, with oil at historic highs (which many forecasters think will continue to increase), the possibility of mergers and/or a recession this year (either of which could put more qualified, experienced people on the street), the traveling public's perception of what air travel should cost, and management's lack of ability or need to pay better wages, I don't know if it will change in time for me to get back in the business. If it takes 10 years at the current pay scales to make a livable wage, then it will take me until my late 50s to get back to what I had when I was 40. I can't afford to put my family through that process.

The unions seem powerless to provide any leverage; just look how effective ALPA has been in stemming the erosion of pilot salaries and work rules. In fact, they seem to inhibit the process, as I have been told by a couple of carriers that they can't offer me anything more for my experience because the union won't allow a "new-hire" to jump so far up the pay scale.

I never wanted to be put in the position of having to choose between doing what I enjoy and feeding my family; I used to be able to do both. I tried a "cubicle job" briefly after I left the airline, and within a month I was going out of my mind with boredom. Still looking for the answer....

 

[shark77]

I doubt much will change unless the supply of dispatchers declines significantly and/or the demand for experience rises.

For me, its been a mixed bag. Over 8 years with the same company, my pay has increased by about 125% in that time. I make a comfortable amount for where I live, so I feel my pay is fair. Especially considering the schedule. But as everyone here knows, if I ever decided to dispatch anywhere else I know my pay would fall in half and that schedule would be gone.

Thats why I do not intend to dispatch anywhere else. Use your experience, go to school, and prostitute the perks of your current job to get somewhere else.

If you are at an airline that has a terrible QOL and you want to dispatch still, make the tough choice and make the move. If you aren't willing to do that then the airline your at doesn't suck enough or you should change careers.

Either way, if you are a competent dispatcher you should be able to do well for yourself if you sit down and are honest about what path you want to take. I just would get my mind off of how to change the industry and start thinking about how you can fix things to work in your individual best interests.

 

[clr4theapch]

All good points by Airbrush and Shark.... Since I was a late starter to dispatch and middle age it was very tough to enter the pay ranks but accepted it at the time. But the QOL was hard on the family and commuting became a hugh problem... So I was forced by the staus quo work rules to leave the profession I loved..
Shark is probably right, I am glad for you in that you are happy where your at and it worked out for you in pay and QOL, I missed that opportunity and now I am too old to really care to start over.. SO Airbrush you might heed Shark advise unless you want to end up like me and out of it.. maybe its too late for you as well..

I still believe that change has to start somewhere, an avalanche starts with just a ball of snow and build with time... The airlines have held our passion over our heads as the means to always have a supply of people "willing to work for anything" when we were young dumb and full of , well you know the rest...
Sooner or later and I hink its already happening to some degree, the 23 year olds are not coming to aviation like they once did because they hear what we talk about all the time and then they see it first hand and leave before they get sucked into the black whole of passion verses a real living and family..

 

[airbrush]

Actually, I have been applying some of Shark77's philosophy....just haven't found the right situation. I'm pretty stubborn about staying in aviation if at all possible (stepped out, HATED IT, came back at lower pay for now), but as noted in my previous posts, I'm fairly pessimistic on changing the airline industry. I think the die has been cast for some years to come, possibly the rest of my career for practical purposes, and I am reluctantly looking elsewhere.

Can anyone comment on life at the fractionals? I know that fuel prices could catch them someday as well, but so far they seem almost immune. I've also got a standing offer to be a ground school/sim instructor (for OK but not outstanding pay) if my wife can deal with moving 1200 miles from family and everything we've known for 20 years. We'll see.

 

[ASA DX]

I am about to hang it up too guys, this profession was the wrong road for me too take. I have 11 years at ASA, (7 in dispatching) and have done everything at this company under the shining sun. When I walk out the door, they will be smiling on the inside b/c they got the next sucker in here doing my job for 6.00 les an hour. Just basic numbers to them. He might not be able to do my job as well as me, or as effeciently as me, or as safe as me...but he will be worth that 6.00 less and hour in their eyes. If I was worth keeping, when my 2 week notice hits the desk..I would expect someone from upper managment trying to coax me into staying. Just a handshake Im sure and not a secong thought about me, and dont let the door hit you in the #$%^ on the way out.

 

[crjdxr]

Random question

Are there any dxr's here that have a merit-pay system or is everyone on a scale?

If you're on a scale, and if your company starts cutting people due to downsizing ("rightsizing"), do you get a severance package? For those that work in union shops, do you have contractual language that covers this stuff?

As you know, Comair (dba Delta's w/o regional beyotch) is "rightsizing" and fewer a/c equals fewer dispatchers. I'm curious to know what other dispatchers at other companies might receive if/when things get "rightsized".