You have GOT to be kidding me....

[shooter]

All right, all right, all right. Time to get your blood pressure to rise and vent at the corporate greed at hand. Just take a look at our wonderful "high demand" job. Look and see what they have to say and let me hear what your thoughts are.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/business/2008/01/13/ddn011308dispatchers.html

Starting salaries can be $20,000 to $25,000 annually,

Oh please please please can I? Can I pay a large sum of money to learn a skilled trade that accepts joint responsibility with the captain of an aircraft and thats what you will pay me? Can I accept all that and you will pay less than what the unskilled worker at Costco makes by a full $2 per hour? Or the ape dockworker that gets paid TWICE that amount? Well where do I sign up? I am here to tell you people that the pay scales have gone DOWN since I was first starting in this line of work and the costs of living have gone up. It was an unlivable wage when I first began and it has become down right insulting since. How and why do people do it? There is NO FREAKIN’ WAY I would start with that kind of pay these days. You can't unless you are living with your parents. And you need to be 23 years old to get a Dispatch ticket. Who the heck would live at home at 23 unless you were still in school and working on a post grad degree? Like I said, you can go to Costco and get a better wage. Retail is now a better profession than the aviation industry.

Sinclair student Ashanti Taltoan, 29, of Miami Twp., hired on last summer as a PSA Airlines dispatcher. Late in the year, he switched to a dispatcher's job at a higher salary (he declined to reveal it) with NetJets Aviation Inc., a private aviation company in Columbus.

Let’s see here, he hired on in summer. That would give him half a year-end Dec and HE LEFT BEFORE THAT! Did he even get out of training to learn the system before he left? You freakin’ dim witted airline management jerks: Pay a decent wage and you will get and retain quality people.

Freakin’ stupid!

 

[crjdxr]

Ugh.

Supply and demand. So long as there are people who are willing to do the work for that wage, there is no incentive for the companies to increase that wage.

Pilots at the regional level run into the same basic issue. So long as there are ERAU grads that will fly the nice new CRJ for $XX/hr, there is very little incentive for the company to raise the starting wage.

Comair recently dropped the hiring mins for pilots, and added a signing bonus. The company has also had a standing "refer a friend and get $XXX after six months" plan.

From what I can tell, the hiring mins for ADX'ers at the regional level are;

1. pulse
2. breathing
3. certificate
(in that order)

 

[shooter]

If true supply and demand were at hand here, we should see an increase in the pay scales as airlines compete against each other for the talent in the pool. At least thats how that article makes it sound that there is a shortage right now. Lets hope, eh?

 

[dispatchguy]

I have always thought we should get paid a percentage of the captain's pay.

What percentage, I have no idea

 

[WalterSobchak]

I have always thought we should get paid a percentage of the captain's pay.

What percentage, I have no idea

Hell, 55-60% of captain pay...with higher standards for actually keeping the job...would be excellent in comparison to what we are all making now. Of course, then you'd have to re-work the FO payscales or you'd have a mutiny on your hands.

 

[dispatchguy]

Of course, then you'd have to re-work the FO payscales or you'd have a mutiny on your hands.

No I wouldnt, for they arent part of the Joint Operational Control responsibility relationship.

It is CAP = Dispatcher.

They want a raise, either garner more seniority in their seat, transition to a bigger airplane, or upgrade, simple as that.

 

[RVSM]

Just for info purposes.
SWA DX used to be 75% and had a "me too" clause in their CBA. This was many moons ago.

 

[airbrush]

Preaching to the choir

Not only have the salaries gone down relative to the cost of living, but why do the airlines find it necessary to locate their dispatch offices almost exclusively in high cost of living areas? I understand not everyone wants to live in the boonies like me, but people could almost live on the wages if they didn't have to contend with the high rents or high real estate prices/property taxes of living in DC or NYC, or the time/cost of commuting from an affordable location.
I recently checked into an ad trying to fill slots at Compass dispatch...pay was $15-$19/hr, which could work in some areas, but they are located in Chantilly, VA! The recruiter said they are "having a very hard time getting GOOD, EXPERIENCED PEOPLE." No freakin' crap! It's that way with just about every carrier I've checked into. I swear there is a complete disconnect between management and the reality of life anymore. I've got tons of experience, but the best I can get out of the carriers I've spoken to, despite their claims of being "desperate, in a crisis", is about $1.50/ hr above the bottom of the already pathetic pay scale.
Unfortunately, as long as other costs remain high, I don't see much improvement in the near future. I can't understand why these airlines are willing to turn over such a vital job, one that can have such a huge impact on the safety, legality, efficiency, and the quality of the customer experience, to the least experienced people they can find.

 

[Galaxy]

I really feel for the dispatchers and how they are being flat out used and abused by mgt. I had a few friends that went into dispatching and one left for double the pay being a mgr at Wendy's and the other took a job with an insurance company for almost double. Go figure-huh? Dispatchers are a necessary evil to airline mgt. You take a share of the responsibility for fractions of the pay. Most people vote with their feet and leave for better jobs-not necessarily in aviation. When they have serious staffing issues then and only then will the attitude change. The same is for pilots-they are having difficulty finding folks to spend HUGE money on education and ratings only to get the pay of a high school graduate. All the bright eyed kids hanging at airports asking me what to do to become a pro pilot. I see I tell them to go to dental school and fly for fun when they have the money or become and engineer and start at 50-60K and invest less than 1/3 of the training expenses than a pilot would.

 

[TheRaven]

It is CAP = Dispatcher.

Uhh, until your office is the target of terrorists, or can blow up over long island sound like TWA800, or can run have a total loss of flight control like UAL232, I can't see how a Dispatcher=a Captain.

For preflight planning and preparation, your responsibilities are the same, but once the door closes it's the CA with the multi-million dollar machine and the hundred lives in his/her hands....you assist in that process, but the CA gets the ultimate responsibility. If the CA messes up, they may pay with his/her life, while you will be going home either way at the end of your shift.

Not trying to belittle you, but the fact of the matter is that it takes a lot more than a 3 week course to be a Captain or First Officer, and for you to write CAP=Dispatcher in regards to pay kind of belittles us.

 

[dispatchguy]

No, what I meant is that we should be a paid a percentage of captains pay.

Someone else responded that F/O's will pitch a bitch if our pay bests theirs (a lot of times, it already does, especially those with low seniority).

I responded that since the F/Os arent part of the joint operational responsibility relationship, just the dispatcher and the captain, I would keep their payscale as is, and not raise it (across the board). I also said that if the F/O wants more cash, he needs to upgrade, garner more seniority in the right seat, or transition to a larger aircraft.

At no time did I try to say that the personal risk is the same. If I screw up, I get to dance my carpet dance in front of the DO, FAA, and anyone else who wants to watch me deftly do the two-step; if you screw up, you can become a charcoal briquette on a mountaintop.

At no time did I intend to belittle the operating crew.

When I was at American Eagle Dispatch on 9/11/01, we had Ft Worth Police SWAT in Full Body Armor, loaded M16s, and no sense of humor within 30 minutes or so of UAL175 going into the tower; outside our door, outside the door to AAs SOC, and outside the door to the AA Crisis Center, who knows if we were/werent a target.

The CAP = Dispatcher meant the joint operational control responsibility per 121.

 

[Galaxy]

I responded that since the F/Os arent part of the joint operational responsibility relationship, just the dispatcher and the captain,

Hate to disagree with you there.....Even though you may think it all rests on the Captains shoulders. The FAA gladly violates the crew for ANY screw up. The company will also disclipline both pilots for SOP infractions. So, the FO has plenty of responsibility on his/her shoulders.

 

[Hvy]

No I wouldnt, for they arent part of the Joint Operational Control responsibility relationship.

It is CAP = Dispatcher.

They want a raise, either garner more seniority in their seat, transition to a bigger airplane, or upgrade, simple as that.

Dispatcher does NOT equal Captain. Joint responsibility but Captain has the final say. As far as the f/o comparison goes...I've never seen the dispatcher take the risk that is inherent w/ every flight. When was the last time you flew an approach to mins are picked your way around a line of thunderstorms? Don't downplay the role of the f/o as the Captain nor the passengers go anywhere without him.

 

[RVSM]

Easy boys. We're getting off topic (shocker!)

Fact is we are all (CPT/FO/DX) integral and indispensible parts of the mechanism and we are all woefully underpaid.
If we spent half as much time promoting the fine job done by all of us, and touting the benefits in safety and efficiency that Joint control and CRM have brought to commercial aviation then we might be able to bring some respect to the entry echelons of our professions and with that perhaps some better income.

One thing is for sure, as long as we, Pilots and DXers, argue back and forth over ego driven minutae then none of it matters.

As long as the point target of your frustration is anything other than the real problem,
(Corporate greed, upper management idiocy, lack of professional respect, pay or whatever), then the aggrieved condition will continue.


We can now continue with our usual subject drift and personal/professional sniping.
(stepping down off soap box)
RVSM

 

[airbrush]

RVSM.....well said.

All of us, pilots and dispatchers alike, need to respect each others contributions to the operation, and check our egos at the door. In all the years I was a dispatcher and a shift manager, it was obvious that we needed each other to make the system work. I never considered myself "equal" to a captain, just different. But it was annoying that, after 15 years and running the entire airline every day, I was still making less than the most junior captain in the company the minute he put on the fourth stripe. But that's the way it's always been, as far as I know.

I fully respect the physical risk that pilots take. But they also need to respect the fact that, although dispatchers don't have that same risk, and while pilots are flying one plane one leg at a time, we are managing 50-60 (or more) aircraft over thousands of miles, dealing with multiple situations simultaneously involving crew scheduling issues, contractual as well as FAR limitations, maintenance routing concerns, individual station priorities for connecting pax, and orchestrating complex solutions projecting over the next several hours just to get everyone (crews and pax alike) where they want to go. Pilots used to always complain that "dispatchers need to spend some time in our world to see how tough it is". I tried to do that, and have also had many in-depth discussions with my pilot friends on the details of their job. A handful always thought we should do whatever THEY wanted, convinced that they had all the answers to every operational problem. But most of the time, when pilots were in dispatch for a couple of hours on a bad day, they left amazed at how things worked, and usually said "I don't know how you guys do that..."

In this current industry climate, we're ALL getting the same lack of respect from management, and we need to find a way to stick together. Hopefully, better times are ahead....but they won't be handed to us.

 

[dispatchguy]

Pilots, well captains at a minimum, should be required to sit an entire shift in dispatch - make it a part of their recurrent.

We have to sit and spend some time in the flight deck (which I absolutely love to do), they should be required to do the same.

I have been to one airline that required, as a part of upgrade training, that those going through their first upgrade had to spend a shift in dispatch to see the other side of the radio - I fully support that. Makes for great CRM/DRM.

I have also been to other carriers that didnt want pilots in dispatch at all for whatever reason - we were just a voice on the phone or radio, or words on an ACARS printout.

Those pilots who do spend some time in dispatch usually come away with a much greater notion of what we actually do in a 10 hour shift. Make it a bad weather day with a lot of crew reroutes, missed approaches, or BINGO fuel diversions - not those rare days where the airline seems to be on ottopylit

 

[onewithwings]

Pilots, well captains at a minimum, should be required to sit an entire shift in dispatch - make it a part of their recurrent.

We have to sit and spend some time in the flight deck (which I absolutely love to do), they should be required to do the same.

Good point. Everytime I jumpseat for my recurrent and attend CRM/DRM, I encourage the crews to spend a day in my shoes.​

After 10+ years dispatching, I can count on one hand the number of pilots that have R.S.V.P.'d that invitation. The crews that have sat with me, have a tremendous respect for what we do. Often times, it's a huge eye opener for them. I would like to see all Captains new to the left seat have this as a training requirement.​

JM2C​

 

[ss9e]

Pilots, well captains at a minimum, should be required to sit an entire shift in dispatch - make it a part of their recurrent.

the pilots at fedex sit with us as part of their recurrent every year. however, it's only for an hour or so. i think it should at least be an entire shift.

 

[clr4theapch]

I agree with all point made here, the levels of responsibility are different from a physical point of view no doubt.. but the regs address a different responsibility in 121.533.. and that is what we the dispatchers are talking about.. I would much rather have a truly mutual agreement with my PIC's than have mutual distrust or annoyance... I think we should get paid a % along the same kind of scale as a captain...

Oh yea my fine feathered friends, please dont forget many of us where or are pilots too..

On a another point regarding pay: Consider that the fact that Pilots make up the Largest number of employees on the Payroll and dispatchers are probably the smallest number on the books. If the company were to increase in pay rates a few dollars an hour to the pilots that would be a HUGH hit to the bottom line, whereas the same increase to the dispatchers would be nothing more than a blip on the bean counters spread sheet...

Unlike pilots working there way up the ladder to captains and their pay rates accordingly, dispatchers are pretty much thrown into the fire right after they get comp checked... our responsibility on day one, is the same as it will be the day before we retire ( as far as the regs go) sure we might have the opportunnity to move into a management or ATC or some other similar position down the road, but these positions are few and far between... so we have to wait on scheduled pay increases in some union contract which is many cases really suck...

Anyway, I wont dispatch anymore because of the stupid pay rates, and long if not impossible commutes, I have been interviewed many times in recent years and have nicely made this the point for my turn down and is why I have not returned to the dispatch ranks, having moved to other airline trades. I am just one person doing this, more people must do the same as well as educating the new students out there of the "real" airline world to which they wish to enter, and not believe the school hipe and BS of makeing 6 figures as a dispatcher.. Not going to ever happen kids...

In any case everyone needs to join together on this issue, as long as the company's sees the in-fighting between ranks, they know they have nothing to worry about and can justify anything.. JMHO

 

[Squirrel29]

So what should starting rates be for a Dispatcher? While we are at it what should the pay rates be for a 5, 10 year dispatcher?

Realistic some one coming out of school with no experience. Should they be making $32k-35K a year starting out?