You guys have me scared

[flint4xx]

Often people forget to consider other flying jobs besides airlines. My background is in law enforcement, and I made the jump to an airline not too long ago. I would have to agree with comments from Bobbysamd and Nonstop.

What I have finally realized is that the interesting part is learning something new, not doing the same old thing every day. In reality, flying a Boeing is no different than a Baron, just done with more precision. The Boeing however takes me away for longer from home, family, and friends. One jetway looks like all the others too. An ILS is an ILS. Hotel food isn't good or cheap.

Someday when you've past forty you'll start thinking about the past and how you could have done things differently. When you are 24 one looks only looking into the future. There is great value in comments posted on this board, even though some are painful to read. But like every parent or flight instructor will tell you, sometimes you must allow the child/student to make mistakes to learn from them. The original poster of this thread is young and still has alot to learn.

It doesn't suprise me that some think older wiser folks are negative sounding, but don't ask for opinions if you don't want to hear them. There is alot of 'been there done that' here.

Either way, I hope you learn something from all this and do whatever makes happy when you are forty, and starting to look back.

 

[DLF8108]

MILITARY AVIATION HAS UPS/DOWN TOO

A slightly different perspective. I caught the "flying bug" my freshman year in college. Took some lessons, but knew there was no way I could afford all those ratings. At the same time I was enrolled in AFROTC, and learned that I could pursue BOTH my desire to be a 2Lt AND my desire to fly.

Here's the twist: All forms of aviation have their ups and downs--EVEN MILITARY AVIATION. When I was a college freshman (1976), several AFROTC juniors and seniors has lost their USAF pilot training slots due to post-Vietnam Era military cutbacks...some were sickened by it...others even bitter. I was undaunted...stayed in the program & HOPED FOR THE BEST. By my senior year (1980...Reagan etc) the military training machine was cranking out pilots in record numbers.. so I was fortunate enough to attend USAF Undergraduate Pilot Training.

Since then...here's what I've seen/experienced

1981 Airline furloughees return to AF active duty
1986/7 AF pilots leave active duty for Airline Jobs
1987 USAF pays pilots a $$ Bonus to stay active duty...I STAYED
1990's Airlines furlough (no opportunity to return to active duty)
1993/4 USAF Reduction-In-Force...BRAC...very few pilot trng slots
1993? USAF Selective Early Retirement Board...some pilots forced to retire...others just "kicked out of the cockpit"... (senior pilots)
1999/00/01 Airlines hire in record numbers and USAF pilots leave active duty in record numbers...
1999 USAF Pays pilots a HUGE $$$ bonus to stay active duty
2001 National tradgedy 911...Airlines furlough...record numbers
2002 Airline furloughees return to AF active duty...I RETIRED

- Obviously the industry is cyclic
- Timing can play a part in your success
- A fortunate few catch the "front side of the wave & ride" in both the military and civilian sectors

I'VE HAD A 22 YEAR LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH BOTH FLYING AND THE MILITARY...

- Loved flying & the feeling of absolute freedom it gives you
- Hated checkrides.../but they're necessary...prep is the KEY
- Loved the precision & skill flying demands from pilots
- Hated "undisciplined" pilots who give us all a bad name
- Loved military flying, comaraderie, & military service
- Hated the $$s kissing/politics of the UP/OUT promotion system

LOVE MY NEW FLYING JOB WITH NETJETS...HATE THE FACT THAT SOMEDAY I'LL RETIRE & STOP FLYING (Not age 60 thanks NJA!!)

WOULD DO IT ALL AGAIN & NOT CHANGE A THING!!

CHEERS
DLF8108

 

[TXCAP4228]

Dollars

No one else has posted exactly what $80,000 translates to over the next 20 years of your life. You need to understand this math.

Assuming an average interest rate over the life of the loan of 4.25% (I chose this since it is the current Prime Rate and happens to be VERY conservative - this is the lowest prime has been in over 40 years.) and a term of maturity of 20 years, your monthly payments will be $495.38 per month.

In other words, you will repay all $80,000 of principal plus an additional $38,893 in interest.

$495.38 is more than my car payment. Hell, that's a substantial portion of what I pay for rent.

How will you repay this?

This is not negative, this is reality.

 

[PCL_128]

$80,000!!!

That really is an absurd amount of money for your ratings. I got all my ratings including CFI for under 25k. For 80k you should be getting your ratings including all instructor tickets, a college degree, and a type rating! Come on, don't waste your money like this. There are lots of FBOs that will get you your ratings for well under 30k. That's the way to go. Sallie Mae will usually give you a loan for many of these FBO schools.

 

[Timebuilder]

I will say one thing for Pan Am, they have nice, glossy magazine ads.

Remember the one with the girl between the two brothers? (no subliminal message there)

My favorite so far is the "single mother" ad, shown with her two toddlers. Maybe she was divorced from a very wealthy man, and has $80k to throw about...

Now, to be fair, at least one of our posters instructs at Pan Am, and has done so for a while. He can likely attest to the fine quality of facilities, or the level and quality of the instruction that students receive.

Considering the high cost, and the interest payment that equals almost half of the cost, I have to conclude that this is more than anyone has to pay, and that I would recommend that few students, if any, can really justify those costs.

 

[de727ups]

80K

If you read his post...he's already committed to PanAm, so the decision is already made....he and his money are committed.

The good news is hopefully this thread, through the magic of the internet and search engines, will keep others from making the same mistake.

 

[Timebuilder]

I guess I was hoping that it wasn't too late for him to opt out of the contract, pay a small penalty, and save enough money for his kid's college nestegg.

But you're right, d, maybe others will be helped by this discussion.

 

[CCDiscoB]

I don't think he cares anymore. xlr857 has long since checked out of this thread. He's driven his red sports car into the sunset. But maybe others learned something.

 

[TXCAP4228]

More $'s

People who have decided to fly for a living and make the sacrifices that requires have my respect.

Its a slow day so I toyed around with some more math. Maybe this will help lurkers out there who are thinking about a decision to plunk down $80 grand on their "dream."

Let say that our intrepid xlr857 finishes his $80K flight school and gets a job at a regional (or that he doesn't and becomes a flight instructor somewhere). With an annual income of $20,000, this works out to $1666 per month, gross. (Let's be honest, most flight instructors would kill for a $20K a year job).

Now, in a previous post I said the monthly payment on the $80K student loan would be $495 per month. Lets look at this person's budget.

80% of $1666 is $1333 (ie, after taxes).

$495 - loan payment.
$300 - rent (assuming you have a roomate)

Now, without a car payment or anything else, can you live on the remaining $538 per month??

$538 per month. Subtract from that the cost of transportation - ride the bus if you don't have a car, right? Figure $60 per month.

Now you have $478 per month. So you have a small apartment with a small electric bill and a small no frills phone bill - BTW, you can't afford a cell phone. Figure $30 for the phone and $30 for the electric (pretty conservative).

Now you have $418 per month. Remember that you have not paid for groceries, laundry, toothpaste or weekend movie tickets yet. And this is just for you and assuming that you have a roommate.

$80K just isn't smart unless you are independently wealthy.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Roommate!!

Dude, you forgot about his wife and kid.

 

[Wiggums]

I will say one thing for Pan Am, they have nice, glossy magazine ads.

Remember the one with the girl between the two brothers? (no subliminal message there)

I'm pretty sure that was a Westwind ad. Pan Am's ad is the one with all the names of their partner airlines, most of which are not hiring.

I think the going rate on these loans are around 12-13%. I don't know the exact details, but the payments end up around $700/mo.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Roommate!!

Dude, you forgot about his wife and kid.

Good point. I was trying to give e BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Wiggums also points ou that the rates are MUCH higher than prime.

Anyway, I think the point is made that if you have to finance it you can't afford it.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks, Wiggums!

Let's see.

Sierra Academy is my "direct line to Airline and Corporate Pilot Careers"

Pan Am shows the Ft Pierce campus, where I "bring my passion" and they will "give it wings".

Ari Ben Aviator is "for the professional pilot"

Flight Safety is where "Dad got me started in the Cockpit, and FS got me started in the Career"

Westwind took Shirley Kreyling "from flight attendant to First Officer"

Tab Express declares "The Airlines have resumed hiring"

A second Pan Am ad shows the list of "regional airline placement partners" and a cute blond model in first officer garb. (they also warn you not to make "a $250,000 mistake")

Embry Riddle says I should "Come for the degree. Leave for the Majors" (considering the state of baseball these days, I wonder if that is a telling analogy)

The second Embry Riddle ad asks if you will be one of the "one in ten applicants" who will be selected into the Industry Select first officer training program. Is is a conincidence that the model shown is a minority? I'm not sure. Can you say United? Suuure. I knew you could.

Jacksonville University offers "From Campus to Cockpit: A Direct Path to an Airline Career!"


Source: October 2002 Flight Training magazine.

With this amount of fertilizer, we should be classed under agriculture instead of transportation.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

With this amount of fertilizer, we should be classed under agriculture instead of transportation.

Now that's a good one!

 

[bobbysamd]

A learning experience

I don't think he cares anymore. xlr857 has long since checked out of this thread. He's driven his red sports car into the sunset. But maybe others learned something.

. . . which is one reason why I write so many posts on this and similar topics. I've had some aviation experiences, with a few not overly positive. I write about them so that others might learn and benefit from my post-graduate College of Hard Knox education.

I agree with Timebuilder; some of the ads you see for schools in pilot magazines are rich. In particular, TAB's ad.

I especially like the ones that advertise such things as high entrance requirements. Come on. That is such malarkey. The highest entry requirement they have are the height and weight of your checkbook!! (Did I hear P-F-T???)

 

[C601]

"all Ive ever wanted to do is fly"

"all Ive ever wanted to do is fly"

If i was going to take out 80K, i knew i could get a loan for that amount, the 1st thing i would of done is gone to the local flight school, and got myself a PPL.

No offense but if your new to flying how do you know your going to like flying and that you have the abilty your going to be able to pass the exams.

1st, by doing a PPL is going to give you a sence of whats ahead, and some people even though they wanted to be a pilot just like you, find out its just not for them.

If i was you the 1st thing i'd do is look at all the options out there before spending 80K and do a PPL 1st .

Its going to save you money and its going to tell you if flying is something you want as a career.

Take it for whats its worth your making a big mistake taking out a $80000 loan and have no idea whats in store for you.

Do your PPL first, look at other flight schools cheaper than the 1 you have right now.. and take your time.

If your not carefull, this time next year you will be 80,000K in debt no flying job.

The school you have decided to go to is only interested in your money. and of course they will sell you anything you want to hear, including promising you a job.

But you don't even know what its like to fly solo. at the very least do that.

The piece of paper you have that Guarantees you a job is about as usefull as T-i-t-s on a Nun

 

[Timebuilder]

not so fast...

I remember Tracy Nelson on the father dowling mysteries.

She was pretty hot....

 

[Anaconda]

Re: Very competitive

>Actually, from what I've seen recently from my interviews, they are looking for a warm body that can quickly upgrade to the left seat.

Average time to Captain is about 1 yr with Comair...

well, if that's the case, i should be a captain by now.

let me check my shoulders...nope, still three stripes...

almost two years now...

 

[xlr857]

now that i have a firmer grip on what im getting into, I would like to thank all of you for your replies. what i assumed was negative was actually just certain posters way of looking out for me. Know that im not so worked up. i see you were only trying to help. I am still going to attend the academy. I have really done research, and talked to current students. Here is what I came up with. The school is high price but the training is top notch as is the aircraft. Many students do not finish the school on $80,000 alone they need more after additional check flights etc. if you fail or your instructer is having a bad day. I found out not through administration, that this is the best route to an airline if your finaces permit. I will be in debt up to my ears, but will leave with a in writing CFI position for 2 years I believe and for that time they try to place you with some of the airlines they work closely with. The dont guarantee hours though. I figure I will get out of it what I put into it. This route will enable me to stop working and just concentrate on school. I will keep you posted as I go through. So wish me luck. Lots of studying ahead.

 

[azpilot]

xlr857 I still think you should get at least your private rating at a general flight school. What is the hurry to go to PanAm? They will always take your money, even if you have previous experience. You never know you might like it on the outside. I wish you luck either way.

- AZPilot

 

[414Flyer]

I agree with AZpilot. Do your private first , at an FBO or small flight school, and make sure it is what you want to do.

It will save you alot of money, and you are not risking 80,000 dollars. A lot of people do go into it and change their minds.. THere are many stories of people who dropped major cash and never go it back, after decided flying was not for them

 

[bobbysamd]

Are you sure you can't do it cheaper?

now that i have a firmer grip on what im getting into, I would like to thank all of you for your replies. what i assumed was negative was actually just certain posters way of looking out for me. Know that im not so worked up. i see you were only trying to help.

You've got it. Exactly.

I am still going to attend the academy. I have really done research, and talked to current students. Here is what I came up with. The school is high price but the training is top notch as is the aircraft. Many students do not finish the school on $80,000 alone they need more after additional check flights etc. if you fail or your instructer is having a bad day. I found out not through administration, that this is the best route to an airline if your finaces permit.

From whom did you find out? It still seems like an awful lot of money.

I . . . will leave with a in writing CFI position for 2 years I believe and for that time they try to place you with some of the airlines they work closely with.

Now, that is the right way to go. Notwithstanding the heavy bread that you, or other flight school attendees, shell out, the opportunity to instruct at the place after you graduate is a paramount consideration when deciding upon a school.

Do keep us updated. I agree 100% that you should not think about working and concentrate fully on your school. In looking back, that's what I wish I did. Do keep us updated and best of luck . . .

But, it still seems like a lot of money - and I'm a fan and former employee of high-priced, well-known schools.

 

[xlr857]

The only thing that really upsets me is of all the jobs in world. The one job I really want has a 1 in a million chance of success. It seems like I have better odds winning the lottery than becoming a captain for a major airline. So my strategy is going with who I already know and who I can become friends with. I know there are many more experienced pilots waiting for work so you really need an inside connection is what I am gathering. I plan on working for my parents when out of school and CFI since working for parents will give me flexibility. It will be rough no doubt but I have alot of support and family that wants to see me suceed. So I really feel as long as I apply myself and work hard, keep my nose clean. Ill come through ok.

 

[Wiggums]

Single Mom...Airline Bound

Thanks, Wiggums!

Westwind took Shirley Kreyling "from flight attendant to First Officer"

Source: October 2002 Flight Training magazine.

With this amount of fertilizer, we should be classed under agriculture instead of transportation.

Nice...

I guess you haven't seen Jan 2003 Flying magazine. Not to pick on Westwind, but is becoming an airline pilot the best thing for a single parent? How can you raise well adjusted children with no father and a mother that is hardly ever around. I guess the subtle point is that if a single mom can do it anyone can.

The aircraft in the picture is a former Pan Am PA44 that was so crappy they wouldn't fly it. Westwind bought it and promptly geared up the thing inside a week.

I've always liked ATPs ads. They show their locations, prices, and phone number. I've done some ratings at ATPs and their programs are pretty decent.

 

[Wiggums]

xlr: Pan Am will sign you up at any point in your training and you still get all the benifits of their ACE program and job placement. If your set on Pan Am the best thing to do is to take your private and instrument courses somewhere else first. You join the program at a point that will work at will and you still get to do the ACE program and get a CFI job.You'll also save plenty of money.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

XLR857,

Best of Luck.

"Relish the Battle"

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[dpipes44]

Hey Bro I'm in the same position wanna make a change in carreer and have always wanted to fly.

As far as the deal these guys are feeding you sounds too good too be true. And you know what that means, it probally is. I have looked into all the schools in FL (Have a stack of brochures next to me right now). With the current situation of the industry you have time.

I decided to go local and get my PPL and take it from there. I figure I'll meet more people and get more advice.

I thought about the $80,000 deal but just think you'll be paying about $600 a month for the next 20 years. That is a HUGE investment. Then if your making $20,000 a year that leaves you only about $800 to support your family. A lot of mac and cheese. I just don't want to see you make a big mistake you'll regret for 20 years.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Remember if you want it you can have it. No matter which route you take be the best you can be

 

[B190Captain]

I am new to this site and pretty much new to flying. I am currently 26 and after 8 years of driving trucks I decided Im never going to make any money this way. I just dumped $80,000 into a flight academy and start in mid-January. But from some of the posts I read no ones really working and that kind of bothers me plus alot of you seem real negative. Im not trying to flame anyone or start trouble. Is finding a job flying making at least $30,000 a year that difficult. I know everyone seems to want to be in the major's making six figure incomes, but Im realistic all Ive ever wanted to do is fly. I just want a job I can enjoy going to the rest of my life I dont care what kind of flying that is. I know everyone on this board is more experienced than me so I would appreciate any feedback, or advice for someone just starting out. I will be out of school in mid Feb. 2004 with a hefty student loan payment.

Don't worry. It may be a hard road to make real money in this industry but it's not like being an artist. You don't have to be dead to make the real dough.

Good Luck!!

 

[metrodriver]

XLR857, the first post from the UPS guy reflects excactly my situation. The first 10 years I never made more than $15000, till the last job on a 727 that sadly enough lasted very short. my loan has gone substantially above the 80.000 you are paying for your training now, and I never had a chance to pay back anything. Why am I still in aviation? because I love flying.
For some of you that are wondering why he was driving a truck? A lot of people don't have parents with enough money to pay for flying lessons. I know a lot of pilots who had a different career before flying: bus drivers, heating/AC techs, lawyer, cops (you know how many of those that fly?)

 

[Mr. Cole]

Good point Metro. When I did my flight training, I saw a lot of young people who had parents that could afford to pay for their flight training. I have nothing against parents supporting their kids and hope to be able to do the same things for my children. But in many cases I found that most of the younger students didn't really appreciate the gravity of what they were doing, partially because they weren't footing the bill. One young lady was the daughter of a 777 captain who is also a great guy in general. I think her mother is also a pilot. But what I noticed is that she didn't seem to take her training that seriously even with having that type of exposure.

I wish I had that same opportunity growing up and maybe I would have started flying at 16 instead of 29. But I believe that doing it at this stage in my life, given my current level of maturity and having the pay for it myself, gives me a better appreciation for such an awesome activity.

TXCAP and D gave some pretty realistic numbers for what you can expect to pay back. I just consolidated my undergrad and b-school loans and I currently owe about $90,000, which is spread out over four degrees, although in all fairness my employer paid for the one of them. Even given the very favorable rates on student loans, most people in my position are paying back anywhere between $500-$1000 in student loans. I don't have a car note, but live in the NYC area so pay a lot for rent. But I also don't have a family and I do make six figures, and the loan payments still hurt.

While I look at the planes flying into Teterboro, Newark, and LaGuardia on a daily basis and think how great it would be to do this flying thing full-time, for me becoming a CFI to build the hours and then to start at the bottom of the ladder is a very negative Net Present Value proposition. So I'll just have to be satisfied renting for the moment, working on the IR, and maybe buying a plane sometime in the near future. Anyway I'm almost 31 so while it's not out of the question, my desire to have a family someday soon, once I find the right woman, forces me to rethink my priorities.

But best of luck to you guys that are still young enough to do it, and who aren't necessarily faced with the decision to leave higher-paying jobs to follow your dreams. But to XLR I would suggest, as numerous others have, looking at a local FBO and doing the PPL there. At least you can make an informed decision about the rest of your career trajectory once you're in the community of pilots, even as a student. Best of luck in whatever you decide.