You get what you pay for!

[blue_side_up]

Just wondering about all those folks that went to UND, Riddle and all those high priced schools. Do you think that you received superior flight training compared to folks that learn to fly at smaller, cheaper technical schools or FBO's and if you do, do you feel that it prepared you enough to be able to handle a regional jet or anything bigger than a seminole? Thanks.

 

[idratherfly4283]

I have heard from a lot of people that riddle guys are the hardest to train, because they have been brought up with the mentality "there is a right way and a wrong way" they can't see that there might be a different way. I am sure the quality of instruction at a place that is expensive is better than that at your local fbo, but not enough to make the money difference up. I was leaps and bounds ahead of riddle people when i graduated in terms of hours, and as we all know hours=jobs, unless you paid for a crj course, then money=job=inexperience in the cockpit which leads to extremely low pay at the bottom. Thanks pft

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Just wondering about all those folks that went to UND, Riddle and all those high priced schools. Do you think that you received superior flight training compared to folks that learn to fly at smaller, cheaper technical schools or FBO's and if you do, do you feel that it prepared you enough to be able to handle a regional jet or anything bigger than a seminole? Thanks.

Short answer to your question, no on the "superior" part of the flight training, I would say thorough, yes on the ready to fly something other than a seminole. 7 years from Private Pilot to DC8 FO, yeah I got what I paid for.

I don't know where this "high" priced thing comes from. I paid about about 20-22000 bucks for all my ratings (Comm, CFI, CFII, MEI). Add another 15 grand for 2 degrees and voila.

I would say there is really no difference from UND or Riddle or Purdue and a local FBO, just that going to a "college" gives many more options to financing your training and more doors are opened to "free" money. I would also say you accomplish your training on a more efficient timeline.

I think the "attitudes" people are seeing are those that come from what they percieve as a "cool" place. UND's biggest problem children came from the Minneapolis area and those are the ones that paid nearly double for their flight training and wore the leather bomber jackets with $300 oakleys to fly a warrior.

The "attitude" isn't a result of the flight school it's a result of GenX or Y, or whatever the he!! letter we are on.

 

[Whyzitsokold]

I think the "attitudes" people are seeing are those that come from what they percieve as a "cool" place. UND's biggest problem children came from the Minneapolis area and those are the ones that paid nearly double for their flight training and wore the leather bomber jackets with $300 oakleys to fly a warrior.

QUOTE]

You mention just a few of the kids that attend training up north. It is just a percentage of them, just like anywhere else you go you are going to have some spoiled apples.

If you look at where you did your flight training, wherever it was, you had some hot shot wannabe as well. The flight schools just pump out more pilots so there will obviously be more bad apples. Most of the pilots are not rich and have 75K+ in dept just trying to make ends meet like everyone else.

 

[BoilerUP]

I attended Purdue as a Kentucky native. While the out-of-state college tuition was murder (Purdue offered the least financial aid of any school I applied to, including WMU, UND, ERAU, Lewis, & U of I), the flight and simulator fees were very reasonable, especially given the new equipment and high quality of instruction. I got my PVT, IR, COM and MEL ratings for somewhere in the ballpark of 25K in less than four semesters. My CFI, -II and MEI were probably another 4-5K.

At 21 years old I was near the top of my academic class, had 750+ hours, had every rating short of ATP, was checked out in a jet, over half my multi-time was turbine, had a ton of internship opportunities and had three different flying jobs staring me in the face. The job I have now is directly related to my experience and education. The best part is I got to enjoy all the benefits of a normal college life at the same time! While I know there are others out there who have far exceeded my experiences at the same or younger age, I believe my experiences both in and out of airplanes have been worth every penny.

I agree that humility is one thing this is sometimes lacking in the students of the aforementioned programs, and Purdue certainly hasn't lacked that arrogant attitude in the last decade. Fortunately I think most of my peers have learned from grads of the recent past and are humble and thankful to have a flying job. They have realisitic career expectations given the current environment, and I agree that the sense of entitlement is more a product of a generation of spoiled-rotten children who have had their lives catered than an institutional attitude.

I would not trade my educational experience for anything, but knowing what I know now I would have spent more time working in a traditional management curriculum to help make myself marketable outside of flying airplanes.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Actually there are 2 DC8 operators out there that are worth a, how did you say, "dang". I work for the better of those 2.

 

[DoubleDown]

I'm a UND grad and I think I got what I paid for. One of the advantages of going to UND or any other university with an aviation college is the other students you get to know. The aviation college at UND accounted for about 1500 students of a total of 12,000 university wide. That helped keep some egos in check. (definitely not all mind you) Also, with that many aviation students, I know someone at about every airline, thats a lot of legs to walk in resumes. Also, the training costs at UND weren't that expensive. The Warriors rented out for $85 per hour, and none of them were older than 1998, dual garmins, KLN89b's, the works. We had unlimited airspace and many satelite airports. The weather sucks, but if you can live in North Dakota, you can live anywhere. The CRJ sim is a little after my time so I don't know how that is working out.

 

[Avpilot]

I have heard from a lot of people that riddle guys are the hardest to train, because they have been brought up with the mentality "there is a right way and a wrong way" they can't see that there might be a different way. I am sure the quality of instruction at a place that is expensive is better than that at your local fbo, but not enough to make the money difference up. I was leaps and bounds ahead of riddle people when i graduated in terms of hours, and as we all know hours=jobs, unless you paid for a crj course, then money=job=inexperience in the cockpit which leads to extremely low pay at the bottom. Thanks pft

Before I started working for XJT, I taught a CFI class in Jacksonville and Atlanta where we had a lot of Riddle guys in need of a quick course come through. I'd say probably 1 out of every 5 students was a current riddle kid. In a fast-paced program that required a lot of thinking outside the box, the Riddle kids were BY FAR the most difficult to successfully train to be a good CFI. It seemed that with them, more often than not they only saw things 1 way and couldn't seem to realize that there are many more ways of doing things than just how ERAU taught them. I have nothing against ERAU or its students, this was just my observation.

Tim

 

[Yank McCobb]

Actually there are 2 DC8 operators out there that are worth a, how did you say, "dang". I work for the better of those 2.

You work for UPS??? I believe THAT was the "DC-8" operator he was referring to...unless I am mistaken. In any event, I would think that would be the one that was "worth a dang".

 

[CSR]

I went to a UND as well and am satisfied with my education and training. I think most people have hit the nail on the head with the benefits. Structured program, from start to finish. Assuming the weather is good you know almost to the date when your checkride is going to be 3 months or more in advance. Contacts! We all know its not what you know its who you know! And most importantly for me, financial aid. I did not know a single person that flew airplanes and only had about 20 hrs when I got there, but I signed on the dotted line and magically paid for my training with financial aid. Some guys like me really didn't know all of the options out there to get training either!

 

[DC8 Flyer]

You work for UPS??? I believe THAT was the "DC-8" operator he was referring to...unless I am mistaken. In any event, I would think that would be the one that was "worth a dang".

I guess it's a matter of opinion then. I am very happy where I am at right now, and can't think of any place better.

 

[jaybird]

I was a Riddle grad. I felt I had a good education, but I could've had the same education anywhere else for 1/4 the cost. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't go back to ERAU nor will I send my kids there. I felt I had no "edge" against any other candidates in an interview nor did I have an easier time in any systems class I've been through.

I shake my head anytime I get those letters in the mail asking me for alumni donations. The best education I've has was flying checks, human waste, and radioactive stuff in heavy lead containers at AirNet.

 

[matchthehatch]

I was a Riddle grad. I felt I had a good education, but I could've had the same education anywhere else for 1/4 the cost. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't go back to ERAU nor will I send my kids there. I felt I had no "edge" against any other candidates in an interview nor did I have an easier time in any systems class I've been through.

I shake my head anytime I get those letters in the mail asking me for alumni donations. The best education I've has was flying checks, human waste, and radioactive stuff in heavy lead containers at AirNet.

What he said.

 

[de727ups]

"Do you think that you received superior flight training compared to folks that learn to fly at smaller"

In some ways, the big academies are better but it's not worth the money, in my view. I think the highly structured, lotsa rules, academies actually keep you from experiencing some things in flying you could do at a smaller school. Things like little grass strips and actual IMC to minimums come to mind. Don't know about now but when I was at Riddle (early 80's) there was a rule against flying in the clouds. Smaller schools tend to have CFI's with a wide variety of backgrounds while the big academies have clones of the program from six months ago. Nothing wrong with this as I've seen good CFI's from these programs but put them in a little flight school environment and they seem lost, initially, without the structure to rely on.

Before someone says "we'll, airline flying is highly structured". Yeah, I know. But my feeling is those who never experience the "other" side of flight training have missed out, early on, on how to think outside the box. These guys that are airline jet F/O's at 300 hours, when did they ever learn to deal with the real world? Oh yeah, they do that during IOE....

"do you feel that it prepared you enough to be able to handle a regional jet or anything bigger than a seminole"

I'll say no but that's based on being at Riddle in the early 80's.

 

[FrozenPilot]

I went to UND with 30 hours out of C152s and older Warriors paying out of state tuition being I was from New York. What an experience! Flat, empty lands as far as you can see, winters colder than you can imagine.. I found the flight training to be similar to flying 141 back home. Well structured, but all my instructors were in their 20s compared to my instructor back home, a former B52 pilot.. The equipment at both places was well maintained but as said previously, UND had new planes, every single one equipped with either KLN89s or GNS430s after spring 2001. You would walk to class in weather consistently -10F or colder in winter (usually a week around -30F, not including wind chill).

The classes themselves set UND apart. More knowledge than I could ever use at one time, and things like the altitude chamber helped really understand flight physiology. I took the CRJ sim course my final sememster. It was a Level 6 FTD, but none of the instructors had their type at the time, something they got after our class. Too bad, it would have been nice to have some logged time. It was nice to get an idea of what flying a jet takes. Also, as said before, the aviation students aren't the majority, so thankfully, you dont have to listen to propheads talking about airplanes and flying all day and night.

UND isn't perfect. I wouldn't recommend jumping into the right seat of a CRJ just out of graduation, but it CAN be done. I heeded my cousin's advice to go get single-pilot experience to learn decision making in the real world before heading to a crew job.

I think if you're going to get your college education and want fly at the same time, collegiate aviation is the way to go. I know I got what I paid for out of UND. I've met all types of pilots on my current job, some from Riddle & UND, many others from 141 schools and smaller collegiate programs and I can tell you this... we all fly the same. Experience, knowledge and personality sets us apart.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

It all depends on what you want to do. If all you want to do is fly airplanes as quick and cheap as possible, go to your FBO or other outfit that will get you through quickly. If you want to actually get an education go to an aviation college UND, Purdue, or another college that offers an aviation program. You will get a college education that will benefit you for the rest of your life. Also, you need a college degree for most major airlines. They are looking for a well rounded person, educated, proficient and interested in things other than aviation. Once you get your degree and all of the ratings get out there and get some expierience flying boxes, traffic watch, whatever you need to do to get some real flying in. Make your own decisions on WX, routing, approaches etc. If all you want to do is be a pilot go to Gulfstream or AllATPs or someother outfit, they will get you through, but what do you really have?

 

[Whiskerbizkit]

It all depends on what you want to do. If all you want to do is fly airplanes as quick and cheap as possible, go to your FBO or other outfit that will get you through quickly. If you want to actually get an education go to an aviation college UND, Purdue, or another college that offers an aviation program. You will get a college education that will benefit you for the rest of your life. Also, you need a college degree for most major airlines. They are looking for a well rounded person, educated, proficient and interested in things other than aviation. Once you get your degree and all of the ratings get out there and get some expierience flying boxes, traffic watch, whatever you need to do to get some real flying in. Make your own decisions on WX, routing, approaches etc. If all you want to do is be a pilot go to Gulfstream or AllATPs or someother outfit, they will get you through, but what do you really have?

I think you need to think of what you will do IF you cant fly. More pilots medical out before retirement. A degree in aviation is as useful as a degree in phs-ed. Go to a school where you can get a education in something other than flying and train at good flight school...FSI, PanAm..etc.

 

[Dufus1]

There are two types of "airline pilots", in my opinion. Flyers, which love to fly, and money makers, who are in it for the $$. The latter of which are in the wrong place. No money here.
Flyers tend to come out of local FBOs.
Money makers tend to come out of high priced places. (UND, Gulfstream, ERAU, etc.) That has been my observation, whether quite limited or not.
Those I have talked to that go to the pilot mills say they "never had time" to go out and enjoys burning gas. They were too busy doing stalls or shooting approaches. The were sooo happy the day they flew their last single engine airplane. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
I trained at the local FBO, spent weekends "building time" going to pancake breakfasts(usually free for the pilot), etc. Did it cost me more? Not from what I have been able to figure so far from those I speak with.
Keep in mind, my observations are limited and somewhat overgeneralizing, and just that, my observations.

 

[Whyzitsokold]

There are two types of "airline pilots", in my opinion. Flyers, which love to fly, and money makers, who are in it for the $$. The latter of which are in the wrong place. No money here.
Flyers tend to come out of local FBOs.
Money makers tend to come out of high priced places. (UND, Gulfstream, ERAU, etc.) That has been my observation, whether quite limited or not.
Those I have talked to that go to the pilot mills say they "never had time" to go out and enjoys burning gas. They were too busy doing stalls or shooting approaches. The were sooo happy the day they flew their last single engine airplane. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
I trained at the local FBO, spent weekends "building time" going to pancake breakfasts(usually free for the pilot), etc. Did it cost me more? Not from what I have been able to figure so far from those I speak with.
Keep in mind, my observations are limited and somewhat overgeneralizing, and just that, my observations.

This can be true. If you go to a flight school and you enjoy flying, make friends with your fellow classmates that have a more positive attitude. The ones that are there because mommy and daddy told them to be there may have a bad attitude. I had a great time at a flight school being a student and instructing.

 

[T-REX]

I was a Riddle grad. I felt I had a good education, but I could've had the same education anywhere else for 1/4 the cost. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't go back to ERAU nor will I send my kids there. I felt I had no "edge" against any other candidates in an interview nor did I have an easier time in any systems class I've been through.

I shake my head anytime I get those letters in the mail asking me for alumni donations. The best education I've has was flying checks, human waste, and radioactive stuff in heavy lead containers at AirNet.

Same story here and still learning more everyday. Currently flying for a 135 on-demand jet cargo operator. BTW there is at least 10 ERAU alumni here so we are definately not all 500 hr gimme my RJ job for $20K/yr types.

ERAU DB AERO SCI '01

PS I still enjoy flying pistons but now land too fast and flare too high.

 

[T-prop]

I almost laughed at some other guys in my class when I found out that I got hired for the same job/pay when they paid 3-4 times as much for training and college. Then I felt sorry for them after I found out that this was what they had been looking forward to since they were student pilots.

I learned to love aviation before I looked at it as a job. I went to the local flyins. Talked to the old timers, learned how to deal with Ice and TS from hanging around the FBO, and not from 3rd or 4th hand experience from a textbook. Even learned what it was like to fly a B-24, and B-17 from a guy that I did a BFR with. That's right, 85 and still flyin the sh*t out of a 182. I got to help out in the mechanic's shop occasionally with 100hrs and even helped dismantle a beautiful AT-6 (for shipping) that had been ground-looped by a Delta pilot on his way through to Oshkosh. I droolled when I saw a classic airplane come in for fuel, and talked the ear off the pilot when he/she came in. If I saw a brand new GV, E-190, 777, and beat-up freight DC-3 on the ramp I would walk over to the DC-3 as though the others didn't exist. I almost fainted when I saw a P-38, all original, on its way to its new owner, piloted by Steve Hinton. The super chargers are so powerful it sounded like a B-1900 taking off.

I went to FL to do a fast-paced CFI at an academy. My instructor couldn't tell the difference between a saratoga and a bonanza, or how well a plane would recover from a spin, by just looking at the tail. That made me sick. In his defense though, he taught me enough to pass my checkride the 1st time.

I am more excited to finish my tail-wheel than I was when I found out that I was hired at an airline. My honeymoon with aviation ended with my current job, it was a culture shock when I started. The only thing that anyone talked about was the contract. The sim instructor refused to let us hand fly the sim to get used to the characteristics of the airplane. Taught us how to operate a flying mechanical object by mashing buttons.

I wouldn't trade my training background for anything. If I got furloughed, I wouldn't think twice about taking my job back as a CFI/lineman at the small apt FBO that I learned at or even take a freight dawg career path. At least it would provide more stimulation than mashing buttons, listening to everyone b*tch about the industry, naming clouds etc.

 

[Tank Commander]

I attended the school of hard knocks. 6yrs USMC infantry, 12yrs Armored Cav. I had a great education. Tank, airplane a lot of similarities. Procedural task, and trouble shooting. You think CRM is challenging in a plane. You should try it in a tank. During my education I lived in 4 different counties. Waged war in 3 countries. Fell in love with some beautiful women from all over the world. Ya, it was a good education. We all bring a lot of experience into the cockpit from our educations. One is not better then the other, just different.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

I think you need to think of what you will do IF you cant fly. More pilots medical out before retirement. A degree in aviation is as useful as a degree in phs-ed. Go to a school where you can get a education in something other than flying and train at good flight school...FSI, PanAm..etc.

I agree you do need to think of what to do if you can't fly. If you can go to a top notch aviation college like Purdue or UND you have an oppotunity to major in many other things plus get your flight training. UND for example has a buisness degree program tied in with their aviation program also you could tie in a meterology degree or minor in all sorts of other things. UND is a huge campus with many schools (ie law, medical, geology, etc.) the same thing at Purdue and other colleges with aviation programs.

 

[T-prop]

I attended the school of hard knocks. 6yrs USMC infantry, 12yrs Armored Cav. I had a great education. Tank, airplane a lot of similarities. Procedural task, and trouble shooting. You think CRM is challenging in a plane. You should try it in a tank. During my education I lived in 4 different counties. Waged war in 3 countries. Fell in love with some beautiful women from all over the world. Ya, it was a good education. We all bring a lot of experience into the cockpit from our educations. One is not better then the other, just different.

Semper FI !! 6yrs 0331 E-5

 

[I Hate Freight]

The best education I've has was flying checks, human waste, and radioactive stuff in heavy lead containers at AirNet.

And you get the grand prize for hitting the nail on the head. NOTHING you learn in a classroom teaches you better than real, hard, preferably single-pilot all-weather experience. Nothing.

A lot of Riddle or UND guys come to the regionals, walking through the door with 500 hours and big ego. Most are quickly humbled. Nothing prepared me better for this job than my 2.5 years of hauling frieght in the middle of the night in scary, old, ill-eqquipped airpcraft. You can't learn this stuff out of a book.

IHF

 

[acaTerry]

I attended the school of hard knocks. 6yrs USMC infantry, 12yrs Armored Cav.

You show a poor learning curve by leaving the Marines for the army

 

[FlyBarneyJets]

I kicked around JC for about four years after high school, getting some pretty poor marks. Not knowing what I wanted to do combined with watching my dad die of brain cancer really sucked the motivation right out of me. I woke up one morning and decided I was going to go over to the local FBO and take an intro flight. That was it...in less than a year-and-a-half I had my SEL and IA certs. Then I decided I wanted to do this for a living, so I applied at ERAU to finish up my degree. I paid for my education there in a couple of ways: by selling a few 60's era Mustangs I'd bought and partially restored while I was living at home and making good money selling computer equipment, by taking out student loans, and by working.

I thought I knew everything (as a single-engine instrument rated pilot) before I got to ERAU. I was quickly humbled, and I vowed to never act that way again. While I was there, I was exposed to quite a few things that came in handy later on down the road. Things like in-depth classes on transport-aircraft systems helped prep me for my first airline ground schools, but it was just exposure, not expertise that I gained from my education there. The expertise came from a couple of things: 1) learning to fly a tailwheel airplane, 2) being a student of the craft, and loving everything about aviation from the newest jets to the oldest Jenny's 3) busting my hump as an instructor to help some other folks learn to be safe, proficient aviators, and 4) busting my hump as a regional airline pilot to keep myself safe and proficient. The hours I put in as a turboprop pilot are what I consider to be my real learning years in terms of large-aircraft flying.

I've flown with a lot of first-officers, too. And guess what? The ERAU grads (myself included) and UND grads aren't the best I've flown with! Most of them are good, mind you, and humble as well. But the finest, most well-rounded, knowledgeable university-trained pilots I've flown with are University of Illinois grads. I've flown with some good FBO students, military flyers, and freight dawgs. I've also flown with some bad ones of each bunch, too.

I guess my point is that each different route to the final destination has it's own special scenery. Every one of us takes a different path for a different reason. I've never looked down upon anyone who chose differently than I did for whatever reason.

 

[BYUFlyr]

Semper FI !! 6yrs 0331 E-5

Ooh-Rah!!

4th LAR BN

Okie Class of '03

 

[DC8 Flyer]

You must fly for Arrow then. How do you like their new green paint job?

Guess again!

 

[FrozenPilot]

And you get the grand prize for hitting the nail on the head. NOTHING you learn in a classroom teaches you better than real, hard, preferably single-pilot all-weather experience. Nothing.

A lot of Riddle or UND guys come to the regionals, walking through the door with 500 hours and big ego. Most are quickly humbled. Nothing prepared me better for this job than my 2.5 years of hauling frieght in the middle of the night in scary, old, ill-eqquipped airpcraft. You can't learn this stuff out of a book.

IHF

Guess I'm one of those UND grads who learned (and is still learning) in the real world too. Theres a lot more of us than many think.