Xpress Jet or Mesa

[mckpickle]

NO it wasn't. The EWR captain REP was very vocal in his displeaseure with it. Being that he and I were both based in MHT at the time I heard all about it from him. I do believe there were a couple (1 or 2) more reps that didn't like it. But I was pretty new at the time and still trying make sure I was sitting in the right direction by the end of the day.

 

[Ben Franklin]

so get you facts straight especially if you are going to go by the name Ben Franklin..........

Some of the greatest articles and letters that Benjamin Franklin ever wrote were completed using false information.

He also had an illegitimate child who had and illegitimate child who, then also had an illegitimte child.

Quit your barking, dogg

 

[SneakyJake]

I was hired in late '96. Mesa and Trans States were offering legitimate interviews, we didn't have to pay for our jobs. I wouldn't have interviewed at certain companies if you paid me (would have still cost me more). Then I saw those same guys going to mainline on a new contract years later. I don't feel the same now. Maybe I should have, but they were losers to us back then. The industry and contracts are cyclical. Pilots all want to think that they are better then each other at the moment. Try looking at the big picture and remember that it all evens out in the end and in ten years I have yet have one of these conversations face to face. Beer settles all disputes.

 

[C150Heavy]

This is soooooo Great

mckpickle
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Not trying to slam you here but this is the biggest reason that airlines try to keep us down. Because of these types of attitudes and expectations, or lack there of.

Point is we are airline professionals that are doing mainline flying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I don't believe you are a professional. Your only goal is to criticize other people. You're bitter about something; family life, your job or maybe your dog realized how big of a jerk you are and he pissed on you. Whatever your situation is, you are certainly NOT a professional.



mckpickle
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Im 30
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I'm shocked, I would have guest 19-21.

PS. AMW (Mesa) has 7 people in the SWA pool, 2 of the 7 have a
Spring gs. I started AMW in Oct 2003, I was awarded Captain this month $28.72.




[

 

[mckpickle]

Wow, Ok soI'm not a professional, yet you are? And you get paid a total of 28.72/hr for your services? Well I'd say that is a resepectable wage for the responisbility you have.

Listen Jacka$$ go crawl back up JO's a$$. I don't have time to deal with ignorant morons like you. If you would like to debate the issues I'd be more than happy OR we can sit here calling each other names all day. Your choice.

 

[C150Heavy]

Dear Mr. McDickle,

Do you ever have anything positive to say? I've got two degrees and an MBA. I'm not a PFTer like yourself. I've earned my way to this job, I didn't pay for it.

 

[mckpickle]

For such a well educated person I expected bit more creativity. I have made my point without stooping to calling you guys a bunch of useless whores.....on this thread anyway. I can be nice. I simply tried debating the issues and sheding light on what the MESA group did to 1. encourage others to never stoop to that leval and 2. So that people getting hired there know exactly what they are getting into.

If you look at the industry in 97 you will find that MOST regional airlines were PFT at the time. I did what everyone else did if they wanted a job. ANd then once there faught for a fair contract. And compared to what we had we got one.

You sir, did not even fight the fight if you were hired in Oct. Your ignorance shows because you want to stand up and defend the actions of your group. You will find that the majority of pilots equate the word MESA with sh1t. IE, I've got to take a wicked MESA! So if you want to debate the issues, educate yourself on the industry. Until then.........you are dismissed.

 

[C150Heavy]

McDickle

Who needs to be creative? Let’s talk issues, you can’t even see that it is you and individuals like yourself that started this race towards the bottom. I’m shocked that you are so inept that you can’t understand the SIMPLE principles of supply and demand. If whores like yourself were made to get your ratings the hard way instead of rich daddy paying for it, then the race for the bottom would have never started. Your actions, not someone else created a surplus of pilots that just wanted to “Live the Dream” at any cost. You Sir, made it possible for people like JO to hire 250TT pilots. Your answer is, “Well everyone else was doing it, why not me”. My problem with you is you’re a PFT. You did something at the time that was considered wrong, but the he!! with everyone else, you were just looking out for number 1. You make me sick. I can’t stand hypocrites like you. You look down on Mesa and others that where put in an impossible situation while claiming to take the honorable stand. Where was this ignorant honor in 1997? You were saving your own a$$. So get off your high horse. What’s even more amazing, your company has more Scabs than all the other companies combined. That is the reason you are still in the right seat, no one wants to hire Express pilots. Before I end this post let’s get something straight, what I detest about you is not that you’re a PFTer. You and your company have done things in the past that have hurt the entire airline industry but you want to now place the blame on others. You started the race towards the bottom.

 

[TOGA]

You guys are both making a$$es of yourselves. Futhermore, I disagree with both of you. McPickle, take a chill, man. If you read my rants when CHQ bent over & relaxed for their management, you'd know I agree with the content of your posts. However, you're getting a little out of hand. C150Heavy, there is a difference between PFTing and accepting a piss-poor contract. It's not much, though. Would you buy your 737 type for SWA? Would you cross a picket line? I hope to avoid doing the former, and I will never do the latter. Also, there is precisely one scab currently working for ExJet, and he's here courtesy of the flowback.

 

[Ben Franklin]

I can’t stand hypocrites like you. You look down on Mesa and others that where put in an impossible situation while claiming to take the honorable stand.

Ok, MESA bent over and signed a $h!tty contract that at best lowered the bar for the rest of the industry.

Only when McPickle signs an industry lowering contract would he be considered a hypocrite.

You are comparing two different positions, C150

McPickle's was: Congratulations! you're hired, however, a condition of your employment is a part 121 SIC letter in the E-120/B-1900/ATR which you will be responisble for getting on your own (kinda sounds like SWA).

MESA's was: You already have a job and can see what everyone else is making, here's a crappy deal courtesy of JO that will lower the bar for everyone, WILL YOU SIGN IT?

PFT will come and go as the economy dictates and is no one's fault but airline management.

MESA's contract cannot be changed unless JO agrees to re-open it to negotiations and is the fault of every MESA pilot that voted "yes".

 

[SneakyJake]

If you look at the industry in 97 you will find that MOST regional airlines were PFT at the time. I did what everyone else did if they wanted a job.

The first companies to start hiring were Trans States, Eagle, Mesa, and Con Ex. Who was PFT? You did what others without experience did. You paid for your job. You undercut and disrespected the other pilots on the market. You put money in the pockets of Management. You allowed them to give you a better contract because you took a loan from your own account. I guess the two do correspond with each other. I suppose if Mesa saved $10,000 per pilot at 100 per month, in one year the company would save enough money to give them a better work rules in their contract. Just because divine Southwest does it, doesn't make it right.

Sometimes they are separate issues, sometimes they are not.

 

[C150Heavy]

Ben,

1. I haven't seen you in my wallet in over 2 years so keep your opinion to yourself. If you’re not going to visit then don't call.

__________________________________________________
Ben,
Ok, MESA bent over and signed a $h!tty contract that at best lowered the bar for the rest of the industry.
___________________________________________________

2. I agree, our contract sucks and it really sucks for AMW. However, Chq was able to negotiate a contract that was better than Comair (so they say). Tell me how our contract hurt them? I find it amazing that everyone in the industry can’t negotiate their own contract. I didn’t know the MESA MEC was your union reps.

___________________________________________________
Ben,
PFT will come and go as the economy dictates and is no one's fault but airline management.
___________________________________________________

3. I guess contract negotiations are not subject to market volatility?

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

C150,

I am going to have some fun now so please forgive me if a offend. I just want to clarify a few things you have said about my airline, ExpressJet.

First, the last person to PFT at Express was in the beginning of 1999. Since, no one has. That means well over half the airline has never PFT'd.

Second, McPickle is a senior E145 Captain, not "sitting in the right seat."

Third, if what you say is true, my fourth year FO pay is about three dollars higher than your 1900 captain pay. I am only stating a fact here, not judging.

Fourth, during Contract 97 negotiations, CALEX was not represented by ALPA. We were IACP which stands for the Independant Association of Continental Pilots. The IACP merged with ALPA in June 2001. The history of CAL, ALPA, and the IACP is a very long and troubled one filled with mistakes from all parties. To explain it all would take way too much bandwidth. I suggest reading "Flying the Line, Vol II" and when it comes out, "Flying the line, Vol III" because the story is not over yet. Also, "Collision with Colusion" is a good read as well.

In 1996 - 2001 many airlines were PFT. Some were CALEX, Comair, and ASA. Those airlines that did not usually had higher mins or starting pay. However, these three airlines are considered now to be or will soon be industry leaders in pay and working conditions. Ironic, huh?

During the same period many airlines hired low time pilots. Mesa was one of them. Ab initio programs flourished. Hell, ASA had a 500 hour minimum for pilots from Auburn and ERAU. Correct me if I am wrong but MESA has one.

However, also during that time CALEX hired many heavily experienced pilots. I was hired in April 2000. The lowest time pilot had 500 hours but it was mostly in T-37s, T-1s and KC-135s. We also had a F/A-18 pilot, a S-3 pilot, a couple of Navy Helo pilots, a former Airbus A340 pilot, more corporate and 135 turbine pilots that you could shake a stick at, and a furloughed 737 pilot (me). Also mixed in were your average flight instructor. I would say that the average flight time in the class was in the 2000-2500 range. I would also like to say that most classes at Express at the time were very similiar. So, saying we are all low time pilots is simply untrue.

Now lastly, a question for you, and it is very sincere. If you have two degrees and an MBA, why are you a pilot. Heck, if I could stand that much school I would be a lawyer now . Actually, I'm serious about that!

Well, Frats, Peace Out, and all that fun stuff.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Tell me how our contract hurt them?

Specifically, I can't.

However,

When companies, Negotiating committees and National Mediators all sit down and average comparable airline contracts together, they come up with a number. Each pilot group who is negotiating hopes to better that number, logically speaking. According to ALPA, it's called pattern bargaining. Notice the words "bar" and "gain" in there.

The different managements hope to control that number, keep it in check, if you will.

Mediators just want a deal so that they can go home and say that they got a deal put together and the "process" works.

When we average MESA's new numbers in with similar airlines who are negotiating, the number doesn't change much for the better.

Pilots at similar carriers who are in negotiations want to point at their peers and say, " I want what they have!" and ususally that is more than what they have already.

With MESA, you'd be hard-pressed to find a CHQ, MESABA or XJT pilot who points to MESA's pay tables and says/said "I want that"

I think the opposite is true. At CHQ, MESABA and XJT you've got the managers pointing at JO's deal and saying "We want that".

At least you admitted that the MESA contract sucks.

It will be that much more of a raise when you get yor next one, if you can catch up!

 

[cl65200]

"At least you admitted that the MESA contract sucks."


I do not think you are going to find one single pilot @ Mesa who is proud of our contract, but thinking about what size Freedom could have been as of today, ( we most likely would not have been released to selfhelp before 2005) I still think we did the right thing voting in our contract.
I would be more than happy to discuss to somebody why, IF that someone takes time to do a proper research on our negotiation first. This because there are way to many folks here that can not obtain actual facts and/or only flying experience is MS Flight simulator.......

My amusement these days is to read any PFT'er talk about integrity and about how Mesa "lowered the Bar " ( we did not ) then still trying to justify PFT.
Self-defence mechanism are wounderful things..........
I guarantee that if Mesa ever went to PFT, the same people would have a fit!

I got on with Mesa in 96 after throwing Comair's and all other PFT commuters application in the trash where they belong. I still had to turn down interview @ Eagle, Trans States and Skywest since I at that time I had started training @ Mesa.

I think that whoever PFT'ed should take a bit modesty and think what they did before talking down to other pilots.

 

[nimtz]

What’s even more amazing, your company has more Scabs than all the other companies combined. That is the reason you are still in the right seat, no one wants to hire Express pilots.

This is about the most assanine statement I've seen on this board in a long time. Put your money where your f*cking mouth is loser. I'll send you our seniority list and you go ahead and cross-check it against the scab list. You'll quickly find that Comair with a whopping 2 has more scabs then Expressjet does.

It's obvious you are new and stupid when it comes to this industry. You heard that a 'scab' is a really bad thing to do and that Continental is involved with the word. So you just decide that means Expressjet has a seniority list full of scabs! News flash genius, you have to cross a picket line to be a scab. Well since our history involves no strikes it would be pretty hard to be an airline full of scabs then wouldn't it. You notice nobody on hear is calling Mesa guys scabs, well that's because the word is VERY specific in its use.

Laughable and pathetic is what you are. What do you expect from a douchebag that has C150Heavy as a screen name!?! You are exactly the type of uneducated moron that Johnny O wants around his airline, because he can always count on your stupidity.

Before I end this post let’s get something straight, what I detest about you is not that you’re a PFTer. You and your company have done things in the past that have hurt the entire airline industry but you want to now place the blame on others. You started the race towards the bottom.

Well you should of ended the post earlier, because this puts you in the category of those that took a VERY short bus to school. Are you refering to the damage the CAL scabs did during the 80's? If so what the f*ck does that have to do with someone operating ERJ's in '04. Or are you again just clueless and making blank accusations which I expect to hear from a drunk homeless guy. I'm sure most Mesa pilots in this discussion would prefer it if you shut-up from now on, because you are doing a disservice to their side of the arguement.


McPickle,

I know you will have choice words for this fool, but don't waste your time with this one...

 

[mckpickle]

I hear ya brotha! No point pi$$in in the wind.

Frats

 

[fly2002]

read the contracts...Mesa pays more than Coex.

 

[tin kicker]

read the contracts...Mesa pays more than Coex.

Ok, so I read them. Current 5th year 50 seat captain's pay: Mesa:$57.64; ExJet:$58.08.

Mesa's contract is in year 1, ExJet's is 1.5 years past amendable. Pretty easy to determine that Mesa isn't gonna catch up in a while.