Xpress Jet or Mesa

[FSB99]

seeing as it's just an entry-level airline job,

and the mesa contract assures that mesa will remain so. terrible attitude to have. i guess flying a jet at jet speeds in the flight levels from one city in the north american continent to another is entry level.

 

[Stinkbug]

i guess flying a jet at jet speeds in the flight levels from one city in the north american continent to another is entry level.

When said airline hires hundreds of pilots with less than 1000 hours (and has a history of turning down more qualified pilots by the truckloads), I'm sorry but yes I consider it an entry level job. Flying a beat up cessna twin in crappy weather across the Rockies is probably one of the more challenging flying jobs out there, but I believe most would consider that an entry-level job as well. The fact is that mainline heavy jet flying is still the ultimate for pay, days off, and quality of life, in my opinion. Because of this, they're the most sought after and are not, by virtue of the competition, entry-level jobs.

You may be right about my attitude. I'm sorry if it offended those of you trying to make yours a better workplace. If you want to raise the bar, that's a noble cause for sure, but until you put your money where your mouth is, why continue to hurl insults at your fellow pilots at Mesa? You're not any better than them; they too fly new jets across the continent and into Mexico and Canada. Yes, they do it for a few bucks less than the industry average and weak work rules. I'm disappointed with their performance in the last negotiation, but I'm confident they'll redeem themselves on the next go-around. By and large they're still a good group of guys and gals.

Those of you who are attempting to raise the bar, again I wish you luck. But I'll reiterate that until you produce results, maybe the professional thing to do the next time you feel like calling a Mesa pilot fish sh!t in pond scum is to keep your mouth shut.

 

[dogg]

Shroom, you need to ask yourself where you want to end up. If you goal is to work for a regional then pick the best one that suits your lifestyle and your needs and do what it takes to get hired there and don't worry about upgrade time. If your goal is to end up at a national or a major than the only thing that matters is PIC time and you should go to the quickest upgrade, fly your a$$ off, become a check airman etc... don't put a lot of stock in the babble that the loudmouths on this board push every day......

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

If you have been paying attention, you would realize that XJT
will have the best paying contract and the best work rules in the industry when the contract is done.

Really? That would get my attention.

All rates will be above comair and the work rules will be spectacular.

'Convair', your fellow XJT pilot, 'mcpickle', says it best:

this is the biggest reason that airlines try to keep us down. Because of these types of attitudes and expectations, or lack there of.

Commair is NOT the bar, buddy. Delta is. It apears 'mcpickle' already knows this.

Again, Mr. 'Mcpickle':

I've had other trips that go from Toronto to IAH. Thats major airline flying. And the girls and boys at every other "regional" do similar flying. This is no longer your fathers commuter airline. It is not an entry level job.

Point is we are airline professionals that are doing mainline flying.

That's right, you are professionals doing mainline flying, and you have career expectations like them too, now, apparently. Why then do use Commair as 'the bar'?

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Beware of choosing a company solely for a quick upgrade. I chose Coex over Comair for the 2 year upgrade to jet CA and 3.5 years later I'm junior to where I was after 9 months with the company. That said, in the new contract our FOs will make more than prop CAs at Mesa so it won't be too bad for anyone getting hired here in the future. Just remember, expect to be at a "regional" for 5-10 years if you're lucky. That time will be a lot more tolerable at Coex.

 

[Ben Franklin]

When said airline hires hundreds of pilots with less than 1000 hours (and has a history of turning down more qualified pilots by the truckloads), I'm sorry but yes I consider it an entry level job.

So, then by your logic UNITED AIRLINES is an entry level job?

During the mid to late 1990's UAL hired hundreds and hundreds of women and "minorites" with less than 1000 hours TT and that history that you speak of.

You are probably so ignorant that you aren't even aware that there are many of these pilots who have signed letters saying that they will never upgrade at UAL, as they have failed too many times in the past.

You are also probably so ignorant that you don't even know that in the 1970's, UAL hired people off the street with "0" time and trained them to Commercial standards in house and then put them on line.

You should think before you speak.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[dogg]

Ben, you really shouldn't pass on angry rumors from your uptight friends that did not get hired by United. It was the 60's when United was hiring people with little or no time and it was mostly average white boys.... There were a few (less than 100) special deal pilots hired and yes some of them happened to be female or minority and no there are not any "special letters" preventing upgrade from that group any more than there are for other groups..........so get you facts straight especially if you are going to go by the name Ben Franklin..........

 

[Stinkbug]

It's no secret that women and minorities have at times been given preferential treatment for coveted jobs, airline or otherwise. I don't have any desire to get into an affirmative action discussion, though.

As for your reference to the hiring situation of the '70s, yes I'm somewhat familiar I guess (although I was in diapers then), but I can confidently say that this ain't the '70s Ben. Neither can the climate of the mid to late 90's be fairly compared to that of the '70s. While I don't deny that the hiring was going great guns in the latter part of the last decade, there were still plenty of qualified pilots looking for jobs who'd been stung by the slowdown in the early 90's. I don't have the greatest memory, but I don't seem to remember United, Delta, American or even AirTran hiring 600 hour pilots in 1998, when I started my career. Places like COEX were getting them all. These pilots were newcomers to the industry, hence my choice of the words "entry-level".

I don't have anything against COEX. I think you've got a lot going for you as a pilot group. I do take issue with people who shoot off at the mouth daily on this board about people "bringing the industry down", and even more vicious language in particular when it comes to Mesa pilots, when they haven't provided one shred of evidence that they're any better. And even if you guys do manage to produce an industry-leading contract, why not just be happy about it and leave it at that. It's childish and unprofessional to belittle your fellow pilots to make yourselves feel better.

One more thing, since you brought up the '90s. I distinctly remember a time back then when COEX was just another crappy PFT turboprop operator with pitiful wages, belligerent managment and an angry pilot group. Sounds a little like the current Mesa, doesn't it? Except they were never PFT and are lucky to be flying jet equipment now. Yeah, you guys have come a long way, and I do hope your prophecies for a great contract come true. But in a few years it'll be Mesa's turn. I hope some of you can get off your high horse when that time comes and offer them a little support.

 

[mckpickle]

Stinkbug, you are absolutely correct. When I was hired in 97 we were PFT, angry and under Nazi rule. It was not a nice place to be. I started at 13.49/hr. It was most unpleasant. The difference between us and MESA is that we rejected our first TA. We didn't fall to the threats that management made. They too told us that our first TA was all they could do. They too told us of the doom and gloom. And remember we were only a few years removed from Ornstien having had the helm.

The diference was that we said no. Granted our contract 97 was not the best in the world but is was leaps and bounds better that C95. It was much better than the diference the new MESA contract brought. We didn't not sell out or get scared. We fought for what we were worth. Thats the difference.

 

[WileE]

ok but...

I don't know the details but was the TA you turned down supported by your entire MEC and all the ALPA reps that were supposed to be "helping" you? Mesa's was. It basically fell into two camps, those that believed the MEC's and the union and those that didn't.

 

[mckpickle]

NO it wasn't. The EWR captain REP was very vocal in his displeaseure with it. Being that he and I were both based in MHT at the time I heard all about it from him. I do believe there were a couple (1 or 2) more reps that didn't like it. But I was pretty new at the time and still trying make sure I was sitting in the right direction by the end of the day.

 

[Ben Franklin]

so get you facts straight especially if you are going to go by the name Ben Franklin..........

Some of the greatest articles and letters that Benjamin Franklin ever wrote were completed using false information.

He also had an illegitimate child who had and illegitimate child who, then also had an illegitimte child.

Quit your barking, dogg

 

[SneakyJake]

I was hired in late '96. Mesa and Trans States were offering legitimate interviews, we didn't have to pay for our jobs. I wouldn't have interviewed at certain companies if you paid me (would have still cost me more). Then I saw those same guys going to mainline on a new contract years later. I don't feel the same now. Maybe I should have, but they were losers to us back then. The industry and contracts are cyclical. Pilots all want to think that they are better then each other at the moment. Try looking at the big picture and remember that it all evens out in the end and in ten years I have yet have one of these conversations face to face. Beer settles all disputes.

 

[C150Heavy]

This is soooooo Great

mckpickle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not trying to slam you here but this is the biggest reason that airlines try to keep us down. Because of these types of attitudes and expectations, or lack there of.

Point is we are airline professionals that are doing mainline flying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I don't believe you are a professional. Your only goal is to criticize other people. You're bitter about something; family life, your job or maybe your dog realized how big of a jerk you are and he pissed on you. Whatever your situation is, you are certainly NOT a professional.



mckpickle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im 30
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm shocked, I would have guest 19-21.

PS. AMW (Mesa) has 7 people in the SWA pool, 2 of the 7 have a
Spring gs. I started AMW in Oct 2003, I was awarded Captain this month $28.72.




[

 

[mckpickle]

Wow, Ok soI'm not a professional, yet you are? And you get paid a total of 28.72/hr for your services? Well I'd say that is a resepectable wage for the responisbility you have.

Listen Jacka$$ go crawl back up JO's a$$. I don't have time to deal with ignorant morons like you. If you would like to debate the issues I'd be more than happy OR we can sit here calling each other names all day. Your choice.

 

[C150Heavy]

Dear Mr. McDickle,

Do you ever have anything positive to say? I've got two degrees and an MBA. I'm not a PFTer like yourself. I've earned my way to this job, I didn't pay for it.

 

[mckpickle]

For such a well educated person I expected bit more creativity. I have made my point without stooping to calling you guys a bunch of useless whores.....on this thread anyway. I can be nice. I simply tried debating the issues and sheding light on what the MESA group did to 1. encourage others to never stoop to that leval and 2. So that people getting hired there know exactly what they are getting into.

If you look at the industry in 97 you will find that MOST regional airlines were PFT at the time. I did what everyone else did if they wanted a job. ANd then once there faught for a fair contract. And compared to what we had we got one.

You sir, did not even fight the fight if you were hired in Oct. Your ignorance shows because you want to stand up and defend the actions of your group. You will find that the majority of pilots equate the word MESA with sh1t. IE, I've got to take a wicked MESA! So if you want to debate the issues, educate yourself on the industry. Until then.........you are dismissed.

 

[C150Heavy]

McDickle

Who needs to be creative? Let’s talk issues, you can’t even see that it is you and individuals like yourself that started this race towards the bottom. I’m shocked that you are so inept that you can’t understand the SIMPLE principles of supply and demand. If whores like yourself were made to get your ratings the hard way instead of rich daddy paying for it, then the race for the bottom would have never started. Your actions, not someone else created a surplus of pilots that just wanted to “Live the Dream” at any cost. You Sir, made it possible for people like JO to hire 250TT pilots. Your answer is, “Well everyone else was doing it, why not me”. My problem with you is you’re a PFT. You did something at the time that was considered wrong, but the he!! with everyone else, you were just looking out for number 1. You make me sick. I can’t stand hypocrites like you. You look down on Mesa and others that where put in an impossible situation while claiming to take the honorable stand. Where was this ignorant honor in 1997? You were saving your own a$$. So get off your high horse. What’s even more amazing, your company has more Scabs than all the other companies combined. That is the reason you are still in the right seat, no one wants to hire Express pilots. Before I end this post let’s get something straight, what I detest about you is not that you’re a PFTer. You and your company have done things in the past that have hurt the entire airline industry but you want to now place the blame on others. You started the race towards the bottom.

 

[TOGA]

You guys are both making a$$es of yourselves. Futhermore, I disagree with both of you. McPickle, take a chill, man. If you read my rants when CHQ bent over & relaxed for their management, you'd know I agree with the content of your posts. However, you're getting a little out of hand. C150Heavy, there is a difference between PFTing and accepting a piss-poor contract. It's not much, though. Would you buy your 737 type for SWA? Would you cross a picket line? I hope to avoid doing the former, and I will never do the latter. Also, there is precisely one scab currently working for ExJet, and he's here courtesy of the flowback.

 

[Ben Franklin]

I can’t stand hypocrites like you. You look down on Mesa and others that where put in an impossible situation while claiming to take the honorable stand.

Ok, MESA bent over and signed a $h!tty contract that at best lowered the bar for the rest of the industry.

Only when McPickle signs an industry lowering contract would he be considered a hypocrite.

You are comparing two different positions, C150

McPickle's was: Congratulations! you're hired, however, a condition of your employment is a part 121 SIC letter in the E-120/B-1900/ATR which you will be responisble for getting on your own (kinda sounds like SWA).

MESA's was: You already have a job and can see what everyone else is making, here's a crappy deal courtesy of JO that will lower the bar for everyone, WILL YOU SIGN IT?

PFT will come and go as the economy dictates and is no one's fault but airline management.

MESA's contract cannot be changed unless JO agrees to re-open it to negotiations and is the fault of every MESA pilot that voted "yes".

 

[SneakyJake]

If you look at the industry in 97 you will find that MOST regional airlines were PFT at the time. I did what everyone else did if they wanted a job.

The first companies to start hiring were Trans States, Eagle, Mesa, and Con Ex. Who was PFT? You did what others without experience did. You paid for your job. You undercut and disrespected the other pilots on the market. You put money in the pockets of Management. You allowed them to give you a better contract because you took a loan from your own account. I guess the two do correspond with each other. I suppose if Mesa saved $10,000 per pilot at 100 per month, in one year the company would save enough money to give them a better work rules in their contract. Just because divine Southwest does it, doesn't make it right.

Sometimes they are separate issues, sometimes they are not.

 

[C150Heavy]

Ben,

1. I haven't seen you in my wallet in over 2 years so keep your opinion to yourself. If you’re not going to visit then don't call.

__________________________________________________
Ben,
Ok, MESA bent over and signed a $h!tty contract that at best lowered the bar for the rest of the industry.
___________________________________________________

2. I agree, our contract sucks and it really sucks for AMW. However, Chq was able to negotiate a contract that was better than Comair (so they say). Tell me how our contract hurt them? I find it amazing that everyone in the industry can’t negotiate their own contract. I didn’t know the MESA MEC was your union reps.

___________________________________________________
Ben,
PFT will come and go as the economy dictates and is no one's fault but airline management.
___________________________________________________

3. I guess contract negotiations are not subject to market volatility?

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

C150,

I am going to have some fun now so please forgive me if a offend. I just want to clarify a few things you have said about my airline, ExpressJet.

First, the last person to PFT at Express was in the beginning of 1999. Since, no one has. That means well over half the airline has never PFT'd.

Second, McPickle is a senior E145 Captain, not "sitting in the right seat."

Third, if what you say is true, my fourth year FO pay is about three dollars higher than your 1900 captain pay. I am only stating a fact here, not judging.

Fourth, during Contract 97 negotiations, CALEX was not represented by ALPA. We were IACP which stands for the Independant Association of Continental Pilots. The IACP merged with ALPA in June 2001. The history of CAL, ALPA, and the IACP is a very long and troubled one filled with mistakes from all parties. To explain it all would take way too much bandwidth. I suggest reading "Flying the Line, Vol II" and when it comes out, "Flying the line, Vol III" because the story is not over yet. Also, "Collision with Colusion" is a good read as well.

In 1996 - 2001 many airlines were PFT. Some were CALEX, Comair, and ASA. Those airlines that did not usually had higher mins or starting pay. However, these three airlines are considered now to be or will soon be industry leaders in pay and working conditions. Ironic, huh?

During the same period many airlines hired low time pilots. Mesa was one of them. Ab initio programs flourished. Hell, ASA had a 500 hour minimum for pilots from Auburn and ERAU. Correct me if I am wrong but MESA has one.

However, also during that time CALEX hired many heavily experienced pilots. I was hired in April 2000. The lowest time pilot had 500 hours but it was mostly in T-37s, T-1s and KC-135s. We also had a F/A-18 pilot, a S-3 pilot, a couple of Navy Helo pilots, a former Airbus A340 pilot, more corporate and 135 turbine pilots that you could shake a stick at, and a furloughed 737 pilot (me). Also mixed in were your average flight instructor. I would say that the average flight time in the class was in the 2000-2500 range. I would also like to say that most classes at Express at the time were very similiar. So, saying we are all low time pilots is simply untrue.

Now lastly, a question for you, and it is very sincere. If you have two degrees and an MBA, why are you a pilot. Heck, if I could stand that much school I would be a lawyer now . Actually, I'm serious about that!

Well, Frats, Peace Out, and all that fun stuff.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Tell me how our contract hurt them?

Specifically, I can't.

However,

When companies, Negotiating committees and National Mediators all sit down and average comparable airline contracts together, they come up with a number. Each pilot group who is negotiating hopes to better that number, logically speaking. According to ALPA, it's called pattern bargaining. Notice the words "bar" and "gain" in there.

The different managements hope to control that number, keep it in check, if you will.

Mediators just want a deal so that they can go home and say that they got a deal put together and the "process" works.

When we average MESA's new numbers in with similar airlines who are negotiating, the number doesn't change much for the better.

Pilots at similar carriers who are in negotiations want to point at their peers and say, " I want what they have!" and ususally that is more than what they have already.

With MESA, you'd be hard-pressed to find a CHQ, MESABA or XJT pilot who points to MESA's pay tables and says/said "I want that"

I think the opposite is true. At CHQ, MESABA and XJT you've got the managers pointing at JO's deal and saying "We want that".

At least you admitted that the MESA contract sucks.

It will be that much more of a raise when you get yor next one, if you can catch up!

 

[cl65200]

"At least you admitted that the MESA contract sucks."


I do not think you are going to find one single pilot @ Mesa who is proud of our contract, but thinking about what size Freedom could have been as of today, ( we most likely would not have been released to selfhelp before 2005) I still think we did the right thing voting in our contract.
I would be more than happy to discuss to somebody why, IF that someone takes time to do a proper research on our negotiation first. This because there are way to many folks here that can not obtain actual facts and/or only flying experience is MS Flight simulator.......

My amusement these days is to read any PFT'er talk about integrity and about how Mesa "lowered the Bar " ( we did not ) then still trying to justify PFT.
Self-defence mechanism are wounderful things..........
I guarantee that if Mesa ever went to PFT, the same people would have a fit!

I got on with Mesa in 96 after throwing Comair's and all other PFT commuters application in the trash where they belong. I still had to turn down interview @ Eagle, Trans States and Skywest since I at that time I had started training @ Mesa.

I think that whoever PFT'ed should take a bit modesty and think what they did before talking down to other pilots.

 

[nimtz]

What’s even more amazing, your company has more Scabs than all the other companies combined. That is the reason you are still in the right seat, no one wants to hire Express pilots.

This is about the most assanine statement I've seen on this board in a long time. Put your money where your f*cking mouth is loser. I'll send you our seniority list and you go ahead and cross-check it against the scab list. You'll quickly find that Comair with a whopping 2 has more scabs then Expressjet does.

It's obvious you are new and stupid when it comes to this industry. You heard that a 'scab' is a really bad thing to do and that Continental is involved with the word. So you just decide that means Expressjet has a seniority list full of scabs! News flash genius, you have to cross a picket line to be a scab. Well since our history involves no strikes it would be pretty hard to be an airline full of scabs then wouldn't it. You notice nobody on hear is calling Mesa guys scabs, well that's because the word is VERY specific in its use.

Laughable and pathetic is what you are. What do you expect from a douchebag that has C150Heavy as a screen name!?! You are exactly the type of uneducated moron that Johnny O wants around his airline, because he can always count on your stupidity.

Before I end this post let’s get something straight, what I detest about you is not that you’re a PFTer. You and your company have done things in the past that have hurt the entire airline industry but you want to now place the blame on others. You started the race towards the bottom.

Well you should of ended the post earlier, because this puts you in the category of those that took a VERY short bus to school. Are you refering to the damage the CAL scabs did during the 80's? If so what the f*ck does that have to do with someone operating ERJ's in '04. Or are you again just clueless and making blank accusations which I expect to hear from a drunk homeless guy. I'm sure most Mesa pilots in this discussion would prefer it if you shut-up from now on, because you are doing a disservice to their side of the arguement.


McPickle,

I know you will have choice words for this fool, but don't waste your time with this one...

 

[mckpickle]

I hear ya brotha! No point pi$$in in the wind.

Frats

 

[fly2002]

read the contracts...Mesa pays more than Coex.

 

[tin kicker]

read the contracts...Mesa pays more than Coex.

Ok, so I read them. Current 5th year 50 seat captain's pay: Mesa:$57.64; ExJet:$58.08.

Mesa's contract is in year 1, ExJet's is 1.5 years past amendable. Pretty easy to determine that Mesa isn't gonna catch up in a while.