WSJ slams Colgan (5/11)

[SiuDude]

The article comes out in Monday's edition:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

 

[Captjiggles]

Marvin can't speak up for himself. So sad. May he rest in peace

 

[PropPiedmont]

Very, very sad. I think this may be even more heart breaking when the final report is released.

 

[Full of LUV]

Ouch!

The article comes out in Monday's edition:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

Not good, but nothing will change. UAL and CAL and USAir all said they are satisfied with Colgans / pinnacle's performance.

 

[great cornholio]

Wow.... As much as I hate to say it, it seems like the crew is gonna eat this one. The article said that some training dept guys quit Colgan lately. Anyone know who they were...as an Ex Colganite just wondering.

 

[CA1900]

The whole report screams "crew fatigue" to me. I hope the NTSB gives that issue the attention it needs.

 

[joepilot29]

Welcome to the suck. The press burned OH's 5191 crew. I think we still have a lawsuit out. Sad state of affairs these days. Good luck to Colgan although Chuck can kiss my arse after my pre employment phone lecture he gave me about 4 years ago!

 

[Jar Jar]

The NTSB has had crew rest on its 'most wanted list' for several years now.

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/brochures/MostWanted_2008.pdf

Thats 2008's -I know for a fact it has been on the list long before that. Just to be clear the NTSB is not a rulemaking authority, they just investigate and provide their findings. The FAA isnt obliged to listen to the NTSB, and in many instances they don't.

If you ask me, the ATA http://www.airlines.org/ just has a lot more lobby power with the FAA & congress than the pilot groups or the NTSB.

 

[CX880]

The whole report screams "crew fatigue" to me. I hope the NTSB gives that issue the attention it needs.

I have a feeling that's going to be a sub sub sub finding by the ntsb.... The CAs training and failures and the alleged actions certainly do not help the case. What I don't get about this accident is that the FO was supposed to be fairly experienced on the Dash8 didn't they see the airplane's improper ice speeds or the impending stall?

 

[Raoul Duke]

The whole report screams "crew fatigue" to me. I hope the NTSB gives that issue the attention it needs.

yes clearly Colgan encouraged the FO to go skiing, take a red eye and then jump in the right seat. I know I am at my best after a nice red eye from SEA.

 

[HOMER D POE]

if you lie down with a dog, you're gonna get fleas.

everybody smelled it coming, but hates when you rush to judgment. sadly, "where there is smoke there is fire" is also true.

unless the chick was in training, I could see how skiing made her as useful as the 'backup" as the pillow in row 9. An FO has alot of responsibility, maybe this can create the awareness now. "who am I flying with in the left seat could be asked at every carrier in the world."

wonder if a new "no fly list" made up of pilots will be coming. the pasengers leave the gate when his name pops up on the headliner for the flight.. I see it coming

 

[tyuwerty]

The whole report screams "crew fatigue" to me. I hope the NTSB gives that issue the attention it needs.

How does it scream fatigue?? It was the first day of their pairing?

How long was the duty day?

Sorry, but I think that is a stretch.

Looks like both pilots dropped the ball. Tragic outcome for a few minutes of inattention.

 

[EatinRamen]

Maybe this will raise awareness in our favor regarding pilot pay and a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. Bottom feeder airlines can sometimes only hire those pilots who are lacking in skills and are willing to accept lower pay and substandard work rules to get themselves into the seat of an airliner.

We know that the most competitive jobs are those with high paying position such as most majors (SWA, DAL, FedEx, UPS come to mind.) Their screening practices make it almost impossible for someone with such a terrible pass/fail record to ever get hired. Yet bottom-feeders such as Pinnacle, Colgan, Gulfstream, etc will look the other way and hire these pilots and also pay them rock bottom wages.

If the general flying public knew of these practices, they would almost be affraid of flying on a network carrier's regional partner who starts their pilots pay at 19K for the first year. The only people willing to take that abuse are the 250 hr wonders and the pilots with a shaky flying background.

 

[pookie]

Maybe this will raise awareness in our favor regarding pilot pay and a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. Bottom feeder airlines can sometimes only hire those pilots who are lacking in skills and are willing to accept lower pay and substandard work rules to get themselves into the seat of an airliner.

We know that the most competitive jobs are those with high paying position such as most majors (SWA, DAL, FedEx, UPS come to mind.) Their screening practices make it almost impossible for someone with such a terrible pass/fail record to ever get hired. Yet bottom-feeders such as Pinnacle, Colgan, Gulfstream, etc will look the other way and hire these pilots and also pay them rock bottom wages.

If the general flying public knew of these practices, they would almost be affraid of flying on a network carrier's regional partner who starts their pilots pay at 19K for the first year. The only people willing to take that abuse are the 250 hr wonders and the pilots with a shaky flying background.

Nicely said but the average pax does not really care unless they are affected by ticket prices.

 

[RJLoser]

Maybe this will raise awareness in our favor regarding pilot pay and a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. Bottom feeder airlines can sometimes only hire those pilots who are lacking in skills and are willing to accept lower pay and substandard work rules to get themselves into the seat of an airliner.

We know that the most competitive jobs are those with high paying position such as most majors (SWA, DAL, FedEx, UPS come to mind.) Their screening practices make it almost impossible for someone with such a terrible pass/fail record to ever get hired. Yet bottom-feeders such as Pinnacle, Colgan, Gulfstream, etc will look the other way and hire these pilots and also pay them rock bottom wages.

If the general flying public knew of these practices, they would almost be affraid of flying on a network carrier's regional partner who starts their pilots pay at 19K for the first year. The only people willing to take that abuse are the 250 hr wonders and the pilots with a shaky flying background.

Not to defend a history of failure but....Don't know where you flew the CL & 1900? Did your company just hire 3000hr+ pilots? Pretty sure all regionals were hiring low time people in the past few years.

 

[WSurf]

The only people willing to take that abuse are the 250 hr wonders and the pilots with a shaky flying background.

Simply Supply and Demand.

 

[meyers9163]

All regionals as of 18 months ago were hiring pilots at 1000/100. Not just a few. In addition 5 checkrides that were busted by the Captain with 2 at Colgan. Ok so were the other 3, his PPL, IRA, CMEL, what were they? If they were the basics of a student pilot I dont want to hear about it in this reporting. Now the 2 at Colgan, many dont pass their initial Captain upgrade, and lets face it some FO's have issues during initial. The fact is there's a reason we retrain and the FAA is ok with that. Its because NO pilots are PERFECT. Maybe you havent busted a ride, perhaps you are lucky, but on any given day the FAA could FAIL any pilot on ANYTHING if they wanted. GOt news, NONE of us are perfect.

 

[WSurf]

I remember seeing that there was a Colgan Pilot on the flight as a pax. Anyone know if he/she was Occupying the Jumpseat?

 

[suupah]

I remember seeing that there was a Colgan Pilot on the flight as a pax. Anyone know if he/she was Occupying the Jumpseat?

He was in the back

 

[climbhappy]

many don't pass their initial captain upgrade

the pressure of a type is really just that..pressure. if you can't handle that, how will do in a real emergency?

Buy or sell your statement? I'm not buying...your comment suggest that a majority fail their type ride..simply not true...

 

[Fubijaakr]

I think the most damning part of the story is they don't train a response to a stick pusher in the sim. Face it, a low time in model Captain, in icing conditions, at low altitude has the nose of the airplane push over. How do you think he is going to react, especially if he hasn't been trained?

Sure he had some training problems. However, its beginning to look more like a Training Department problem.

 

[norskman2]

Buy or sell your statement? I'm not buying...your comment suggest that a majority fail their type ride..simply not true...

I don't think he was suggesting that a MAJORITY fail their type rides -- just that a lot of pilots have a bust or two on their records by the time they make Captain.

That said, FIVE busts (3 pre-121, 2 during 121) seems to be lot for anybody.

 

[Jar Jar]

Sure he had some training problems. However, its beginning to look more like a Training Department problem.

Colgan's canned response is "we meet or exceed all federal training requirements."

And that is true.

So, is the problem with Colgan, or the Feds? I would argue the underlying problem is the standards set forth by the FAA.

 

[Fubijaakr]

That would be the old "if the minumum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum" argument. True. However, you can bump standards up to the point where NO ONE can pass.

And then there's the law of supply and demand. We're talking the regionals here. Just last spring, they were hiring 500/50. You can't give those guys a NASA checkride. When there's lots of job candidates you can be stricter.

The telling point is that Colgan has "fired" Check Airmen and had a couple big Kahunas in the Training Department "resign". You don't think there was a little FAA pressure to make that happen? Slack standards have come home to roost, apparently.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Capt. Renslow, 47, joined Colgan in September 2005 after graduating from a pilot-training academy, employment records show. He had a history of flunking check rides -- periodic tests of competency that are also required anytime a pilot begins flying a new type of aircraft. Before joining Colgan, he failed three proficiency checks on general aviation aircraft administered by the FAA, according to investigators and the airline.

Did this guy first start flying in his early 40's at some sort of ALLATPs bridge program for Colgan?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but what is your opinion on guys who begin flight training (with the goal to become a professional pilot) at such a late age. The mind does not absorb information or training like it does as a teen/ early 20's student. Your attitudes and perceptions are much different between those two ages.

 

[jimcav]

Did this guy first start flying in his early 40's at some sort of ALLATPs bridge program for Colgan?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but what is your opinion on guys who begin flight training (with the goal to become a professional pilot) at such a late age. The mind does not absorb information or training like it does as a teen/ early 20's student. Your attitudes and perceptions are much different between those two ages.

That is a good point. However I used to fly with a guy that started at 45. He is extremely sharp. I think he may be the exception and not the norm.

 

[imacdog]

Maybe this will raise awareness in our favor regarding pilot pay and a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. Bottom feeder airlines can sometimes only hire those pilots who are lacking in skills and are willing to accept lower pay and substandard work rules to get themselves into the seat of an airliner.

We know that the most competitive jobs are those with high paying position such as most majors (SWA, DAL, FedEx, UPS come to mind.) Their screening practices make it almost impossible for someone with such a terrible pass/fail record to ever get hired. Yet bottom-feeders such as Pinnacle, Colgan, Gulfstream, etc will look the other way and hire these pilots and also pay them rock bottom wages.

If the general flying public knew of these practices, they would almost be affraid of flying on a network carrier's regional partner who starts their pilots pay at 19K for the first year. The only people willing to take that abuse are the 250 hr wonders and the pilots with a shaky flying background.

I see you have CL-65 and B-1900 time. Does that mean you fall into the "shaky background" category?

 

[CX880]

Maybe this will raise awareness in our favor regarding pilot pay and a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. Bottom feeder airlines can sometimes only hire those pilots who are lacking in skills and are willing to accept lower pay and substandard work rules to get themselves into the seat of an airliner.

We know that the most competitive jobs are those with high paying position such as most majors (SWA, DAL, FedEx, UPS come to mind.) Their screening practices make it almost impossible for someone with such a terrible pass/fail record to ever get hired. Yet bottom-feeders such as Pinnacle, Colgan, Gulfstream, etc will look the other way and hire these pilots and also pay them rock bottom wages.

If the general flying public knew of these practices, they would almost be affraid of flying on a network carrier's regional partner who starts their pilots pay at 19K for the first year. The only people willing to take that abuse are the 250 hr wonders and the pilots with a shaky flying background.

That is completely wrong. There are thousands of us who were low timers. Yes it's unfortunate that we will never know the joy of flying 1 hour around the airport pattern 1000 times on a 172s right seat but we all can sure as hell fly an airliner well.

This guy had a bunch of failures in his flight training we don't know what the terms were or if indeed Colgan would or could have known as there are loop holes to that. Internal fail rates do not matter to the company as long as the person ends up passing. I don't know maybe he should have went to a nice RJ airline where on the check irde the jet flys itself instead of going to a place like colgan if he knew that he wasn't a very good pilot. Who knows. But please don't generalize the rest of us.

By the way there is no such thing as low tiimers anyways. The last low timer was hired early 08 it's now almost mid 09.

 

[regionaltard]

...and not a word about a system that turns this kind of flying into nothing more than a commodity produced and sold by the low bidder. An accident like this was inevitable.

 

[30West]

Maybe this will raise awareness in our favor regarding pilot pay and a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. .

Way to generalize while at the same time contributing absolutely nothing.