Wright Fight Update zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Mugs]

Well, that is not what Herb said....

• [FONT=Arial, Courier][SIZE=+0]"When people say I agreed to it {Wright Amendment}, yeah, the same way Germany agreed to an armistice after World War I... at the point of a gun."
  Herb Kelleher, founder of Southwest Airlines responding to Attorney Dee Kelly's incredulous remark that Herb Kelleher wrote the Wright Amendment himself
  (FYI: Although DFW Airports' new keepdfwstrong website includes Kelly's quote, it failed to include Herb's reply. Wonder why?)
  
  J3
  [/SIZE][/FONT]

Embellishment for the current campaign against the WA. If Herb was qouted as feeling this way in the years immediately after the WA, it would be more interesting. Established low cost secondary airports and staying under legacy radar was the main goal required for SWA's survival in those days. The real gun to the head would have been closing Love all together and forcing everyone to DFW. That could have been disasterous to SWA's business plan back then.

 

[Flopgut]

Just out of curiosity I went to the AA and SWA websites and priced flights from Love to St. Louis departing June 2 returning June 4th.

AA - $474 round trip
SWA - $274 round trip

What's a couple hundred bucks among friends right?

Gup

Wonder what those fares would be if AA had the SWA/Love Field sweetheart rate on airport facilities? I wonder what they would be now if AA had been enjoying that sweetheart deal for 2+ decades? I wonder if metroplex consumers would appreciate the cheaper fare if they knew it was putting an airport in hock?

Lets overlay Love Field expenses on DFW for AA and let you SWA folks pick up the tab for what AA pays at DFW...for, oh say, 20 years. How's that sound? What kind of fare you got then?

You got squat!

 

[Flopgut]

How many airports come with a deal where you can only fly to a handful of states. Get a clue, .55 is still too much for an airport that gives you the range of a Daisey Air Rifle.

Then move over to DFW. You got the money. If your product is demonstratively superior to the competition you'll do well.

Oh, wait. It's not, and you don't like competition.

 

[cptcrunch]

Wonder what those fares would be if AA had the SWA/Love Field sweetheart rate on airport facilities? I wonder what they would be now if AA had been enjoying that sweetheart deal for 2+ decades? I wonder if metroplex consumers would appreciate the cheaper fare if they knew it was putting an airport in hock?

Lets overlay Love Field expenses on DFW for AA and let you SWA folks pick up the tab for what AA pays at DFW...for, oh say, 20 years. How's that sound? What kind of fare you got then?

You got squat!

SWA flies out of many other cities besides dallas, and in some of these cities their is competition for instance AA. And guess what in those cities SWA is still a more affordable ticket for the consumer. Its called a better business plan deal with it.

 

[SWA/FO]

Flapgut,

Do we get the 131 gates at DFW too?

MUGS - there is no doubt you have entered the "spin zone" - but the majority of the public supports Southwest Airlines.

 

[Flopgut]

Flapgut,

Do we get the 131 gates at DFW too?

How about just plan on getting what you pay for. No more free rides for SWA in Dallas.

 

[canyonblue]

How about just plan on getting what you pay for. No more free rides for SWA in Dallas.

Free rides? Well since we have never been in Bankruptcy, we have always paid our bills as expected. And your airline?

 

[Flopgut]

Free rides? Well since we have never been in Bankruptcy, we have always paid our bills as expected. And your airline?

BK twice, care of Frank Lorenzo. He traded pilots' pension for worthless stock, sold the catering company to his child daughter and used it to fleece the airline, sold the starter gens off the 727 fleet to a holding company to fleece even more. And all manner of other things as well.

You're appreciative of his work eh? You're a neat guy.

I'm glad I got to repost this article. The first time it was on here no SWA guys wanted to chat it up. It's pretty telling of the nature of the deal you've been getting at Love. You may have been paying your bills, but with the terms you got handed, who couldn't?

 

[cptcrunch]

BK twice, care of Frank Lorenzo. He traded pilots' pension for worthless stock, sold the catering company to his child daughter and used it to fleece the airline, sold the starter gens off the 727 fleet to a holding company to fleece even more. And all manner of other things as well.

You're appreciative of his work eh? You're a neat guy.

I'm glad I got to repost this article. The first time it was on here no SWA guys wanted to chat it up. It's pretty telling of the nature of the deal you've been getting at Love. You may have been paying your bills, but with the terms you got handed, who couldn't?

when did canyon blue say he was appreciative of frank lorenzos work? and dont forget your the one who started attacking swa on this gouge.
oh and who says your a NEAT guy?

 

[Mugs]

Free rides? Well since we have never been in Bankruptcy, we have always paid our bills as expected. And your airline?

For decades the legacy carriers have invested in expanding and improving the aviation infrastructure, rather than clinging on to second rate airports like MDW for most of their history. An aviation system that can't get a businessman from Minot to Milan or Milwaukee is far from complete. Somebody had to make the investments so that could be a reality. Unfortunately, such networks have proven overwhelmingly expensive given the unprecedented industry conditions of the last few years. What the future holds, who knows.

At least for you Canyon and many of your civilian only SWA buds, those very airlines that have had trouble paying their bills with the above mentioned route systems provided you guys with a career making opportunity. They provided the jobs that allowed you to quickly build the 1000 turbine PIC time SWA requires doing the type of flying SWA likes to see from civilian applicants. I'm glad that our pathetic, can't pay the bills airlines in your view were around to help you by developing the networks and hence the jobs that made you marketable to SWA. Hopefully, we can continue to do so for many more pilots in the future at SWA and elsewhere.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

For decades the legacy carriers have invested in expanding and improving the aviation infrastructure, rather than clinging on to second rate airports like MDW for most of their history.

Do you really think the legacies invested money "for the public good"?

Wrong. They invested because they thought there was money to be made, market share to strengthen, and competitors to block.

I don't know where you are coming from. You are either naive and buying the company BS machine or are just an arrogant jackarse that thinks everyone should fly in double breasted suits, evening gowns and drink champagne.

Either way its hopelessly out of date. Wake up to reality

 

[SWA/FO]

You think UAL and AA go into smaller cities so Civilian only pilots - like myself could build flight time and apply to Southwest? Well, lets use your logic a little more.....

I was a Corporate Pilot (for a major computer company) - so my thanks go out to all those people that bought computers in the 1990's. Then I flew freight for the big 3, as in cars/trucks & SUV's so many thanks to the few people out there that still buy AMERICAN. The Legacies DID nothing for me....

 

[cptcrunch]

I Also Flew Freight So Nice Try Too Bad I Didn't Take The 7 Year Upgrade At American Eagle That Saab Looks Awesome

 

[aa73]

Then I flew freight for the big 3, as in cars/trucks & SUV's so many thanks to the few people out there that still buy AMERICAN.

Unfortunatley, they are really buying CANADIAN and MEXICAN.

Wanna buy American, get a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, etc... Now you are supporting jobs here.

 

[Mugs]

Do you really think the legacies invested money "for the public good"?

Wrong. They invested because they thought there was money to be made, market share to strengthen, and competitors to block.

Exactly. And since what they invested in was inherently more expensive, it requires a revenue premium to make it work. That revenue premium is what has been missing and in turn has made several legacies, as Canyon so well put it, unable to pay their bills.

SWA invested in far less expensive, second rate (and sometimes less safe) airports like MDW. That along with a non hub and spoke type operation means much less revenue is required to make it work. A great system to be sure, but one that does not and can not serve many markets.

 

[flypdx]

For decades the legacy carriers have invested in expanding and improving the aviation infrastructure, rather than clinging on to second rate airports like MDW for most of their history. An aviation system that can't get a businessman from Minot to Milan or Milwaukee is far from complete. Somebody had to make the investments so that could be a reality. Unfortunately, such networks have proven overwhelmingly expensive given the unprecedented industry conditions of the last few years. What the future holds, who knows.

At least for you Canyon and many of your civilian only SWA buds, those very airlines that have had trouble paying their bills with the above mentioned route systems provided you guys with a career making opportunity. They provided the jobs that allowed you to quickly build the 1000 turbine PIC time SWA requires doing the type of flying SWA likes to see from civilian applicants. I'm glad that our pathetic, can't pay the bills airlines in your view were around to help you by developing the networks and hence the jobs that made you marketable to SWA. Hopefully, we can continue to do so for many more pilots in the future at SWA and elsewhere.

What is your background, Mugs? Below your avatar it says Civ only but your post seems to imply that you have some military background. What gives?

 

[cptcrunch]

What is your background, Mugs? Below your avatar it says Civ only but your post seems to imply that you have some military background. What gives?

Ill tell you what his background is jealous bitch at the end of the bar

 

[Mugs]

Ill tell you what his background is jealous bitch at the end of the bar

Impressive. Did you come up with that while munching on your cereal this morning?

FlyPdx. Nope. Civilian only, with the upmost respect for those that served.

 

[Flopgut]

Do you really think the legacies invested money "for the public good"?

Wrong. They invested because they thought there was money to be made, market share to strengthen, and competitors to block.

I don't know where you are coming from. You are either naive and buying the company BS machine or are just an arrogant jackarse that thinks everyone should fly in double breasted suits, evening gowns and drink champagne.

Either way its hopelessly out of date. Wake up to reality

FBJ my bud, I got way more respect for you than most of your fellow SWA pilotos. I want to point out a possible discrepancy here, but first, who is this cptcrunch a$$clown? One of yours? The guys got the dumbest avatar I've ever seen. Has he got some sort of perverted fantasy about an aged man servant? I'm disgusted, I don't think I'll acknowledge him.

Under regulation, airlines had to prove that a proposed new route met with a certain degree of public necessity; thats in addition to proving that your company had the financial wherewithall and that your equipment and training were well suited to the proposed new route. THAT is what legacy airlines didn't learn quick enough. Legacies suffered from the regulation hangover too long and didn't realize there was no longer any public necessity. We should have dropped 50% percent of what we provided (maybe more) and let the chips fall.

You're right, time to wake up to reality. The average consumer is tatooed, pierced, super sized, and extra stupid. At the rate our customer base is digressing they'll soon be too stupid to even get their butt to the airport. They'll go to a vacation website, order take out, and play video games. I think we're about halfway there, what do you think?

 

[SWA/FO]

SWA invested in far less expensive, second rate (and sometimes less safe) airports like MDW. That along with a non hub and spoke type operation means much less revenue is required to make it work. A great system to be sure, but one that does not and can not serve many markets.

Less safe airports? Come'on thats like saying UAL invested into less safe airplanes, the DC-10 and B747. Or UAL invested into less safe pilots throughout their hiring in the 1990's.

the SWA/FO

imp:

 

[mdf]

And the Wright fight continues, spearheaded by one guy from CAL, and one from UAL. The only thing realization I am coming to on this debate................ AA guys are pretty cool.

 

[J3CubCapt]

If your product is demonstratively superior to the competition you'll do well. Oh, wait. It's not, and you don't like competition.

Let's see, SWA's planes more full than AA's..... MCI, STL, AUS, SAT.

 

[Flopgut]

Let's see, SWA's planes more full than AA's..... MCI, STL, AUS, SAT.

Bring those full planes over to DFW. You have some customers AA wants back. Not ALL of them, just the ones with money.

 

[GuppyWN]

Bring those full planes over to DFW. You have some customers AA wants back. Not ALL of them, just the ones with money.

Customers are customers you biggot. Doesn't matter how much they make or how often they travel - their business is appreciated.

Gup

 

[SWA/FO]

Its funny Mugs is making fun of WN because they (we) chose to take the path less traveled. We are different and yet, since we don't follow everybody elses decisions - that makes us less smart to him.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/04/AR2006060400288.html?nav=rss_business/industries

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Wonder what those fares would be if AA had the SWA/Love Field sweetheart rate on airport facilities?

Geez...how is it that NOW pewople are criticizing the landing fees at DAL vs. the fees at DFW when for years the landing fees were the same at DAL as they have been until recently.

All along nobody even made a peep about those fees. Besides, lets remember that landing fees are negotiable....CAL probably gets a better deal on fees at IAH than they do at EWR or LGA.

Maybe its the price of landing at DFW that caused Delta to pull out of there and re-focus on their hub in ATL. Wonder how much they pay at ATL vs. what they were paying at DFW? I bet its a lot less.

What ever happened to the "sweetheart" deal that the DFW airport board made to ANY and ALL the airlines on the former Delta gates....for anyone who would sign up for a long term deal for 10 or more gates...1 year free gate rent....and a bonus of almost a million per gate...wonder why nobody ever took them up on that "great" deal.

Tejas

 

[J3CubCapt]

I wonder what they would be now if AA had been enjoying that sweetheart deal for 2+ decades?

How many airports has AA reduced service or pulled out all together which caused SWA and others to pick up the tab?

We agreed to the "DEAL" presented by the city of Dallas. It's a contract you know, maybe you should strive for better terms.

 

[SWA/FO]

Yeah AA built a great terminal in BNA and then left it to us at SWA - it sucked

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Flopgut,


You hit the nail on the head. AA wants the passengers with money. AA has moved in and out of markets. They have increased service (and then usually reduced it when they could) to ensure a higher than average ticket prices with reduced competition. They have always talked about what they were doing for the passenger and how they were growing but really all they wanted was to squeeze competitors first then the pooring passenger out of flying.

Looking forward now....AA management is so giddy about ticket price increases sticking they are parking 27 airplanes the next 12 months (MD 80's I think) and bragging abougt how its good for the corporation because the reduced capacity will drive ticket prices sky high in "select" markets.

I'm going to name you the "History Professor" because you latch onto some of the most obscure and unrelated tidbits concerning Dallas airline history. You can tease SWA about "advantages" but AA has just as many. AA may have "earned" their dominant position but they did so while treating their employees like dirt and getting caught price fixing by the government. Not to mention their ruthless behavior concerning competition. AA made SWA look like a girl scout. Business, like life, is not fair and bad things happen to good people. It's just AA's model of operations is incredibly inefficient and they can't make a decent profit out of their huge revenue, unless they fix the playing field. Knowing that fact I would like to look to the future, not rehash old rivalries.


Heard a good one yesterday. AA may be the Evil Empire but SWA is the Borg.

The LCC model will assimilate all. More likely someone will "merge" with a LCC to take advantage of the profit it generates. This will happen when SWA gets into international flying.

Flopgut, I'm looking forward not back when I study history. Remember when the B-scales were all the rage? SWA dropped theirs after a brief period around 1990. Newhires thru year 3 at SWA were making 12K more than AA pilots. And SWA was still growing like gangbusters. I predict the same for the next 3 years.

 

[canyonblue]

You have some customers AA wants back. Not ALL of them, just the ones with money.

Sorry, my friend has been flying them all over at NetJets.