Wow I only need 350 hours and 25k to fly an RJ?

[fastbird]

It reads like the original American Eagle program from 1991.

Pay us money, we give you some training...and you are on your own. Good Luck! not!

 

[The Truth]

Does anyone happen to know if Part 121 ever had time requirements similiar to Pt 135? If so, why were they dropped to the current level? (the current level basically being none)

I'm not sure what needs to be done to reverse this trend, but I have a suspicion that minimum times (comparable to 135) would be a big step. Personally, I feel that everyone should flight instruct at least ONE primary and instrument student, as well as have some single-pilot (ala freight) under their belts. At the minimum, a comfort with flying in adverse weather.

I think that every pilot ultimately needs to ask themselves whether or not they're capable of handing that aircraft in the event of the Captain becoming incapacitated. If not, there's a problem.

 

[McNugent]

Personally, I feel that everyone should flight instruct at least ONE primary and instrument student, as well as have some single-pilot (ala freight) under their belts. At the minimum, a comfort with flying in adverse weather.

Yeah, thats exactly what I need. The FAA regulating what I can do with my certs. and ratings even more. I'm not advocation going out and paying 25K for an airline job at only 250 hours, but there are ways around instructing. I happened to instruct, and learned a lot out of it, but to tell someone they HAVE to get their CFII and instruct at least one primary and instrument student is kinda out there.

You just have to realize that times have changed. Just because you may have had to "pay your dues" and fly crappy planes in crappy weather for crappy pay, doesn't mean thats the norm anymore. I do however have the utmost respect for those that did go through that. With CAPT, Direct Track, and ATP along with the PFT you are going to get the low timers whether you like it or not. That's just how it is now.

 

[plunger]

How are these people getting interviews? I have about 1020TT/300ME which is still pretty low, and a bachelors in aviation management and nobody will even look at me. How are these 500TT/20ME no degree people getting hired? sheesh...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Anyone can petition the FAA for NPRM.

Write your congressman. Start a petition.

Buy a page in the USA Today.

"Your cancelled checks require a pilot with over one-thousand hours of experience to fly them to the federal reserve.

An airline pilot may have as little as 250 hours of experience.

Why is a piece of paper more important than your own life?
Call your congressman and tell him to support proposition #1 - Raise FAR121 minimums to 2000 hrs."
​

We can all complain about it here on Flightinfo.com to no avail. Until the FAA gets pressure from the traveling public nothing will change.

Better have deep pockets though, because the ATA is certainly going to fight back.

 

[EMB Skillz]

Check out what I got in my email box! Sweet! No more paying dues as an instrument instructor or running around golfers in the Caravan. Do I get to wear a cool hat? Can I wear a backpack? 19 bucks an hour would be a 50% pay cut from what I make as an instructor but hell this must be the opportunity of a lifetime. I mean its not like I didn't spend a lot of money on my CIME instructor ticket but wow for only 25k what a deal!

Well, somebody has to fly the little RJ's when everybody gets moved up to the E170/190 Mainline aircraft.

 

[Quiet Flight]

A friend just sent me this email. Holy smoke! Is this for real?

On-Site Interviews with Pinnacle Airlines / Northwest Airlink

In just three weeks, Pinnacle Airlines (Northwest Airlink) will
interview a pool of ATP Instructors and Airline Transition Program
graduates on-site at ATP's headquarters in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.

Pinnacle will also interview a select number of pilots prior to their
enrollment in the Airline Transition Program for Conditional Offers of
Employment.

After successful completion of the interview, Pinnacle knows that
applicants will quickly gain a high level of proficiency and
standardization in ATP's 60-day Airline Transition Program. If you're
pursuing an airline job, have 350 hours total time, and would like to
know you're hired before investing $24,995, visit ATP's web site and
complete the application to be invited to 4 days of complimentary
interview and sim prep, and an interview with Pinnacle.

Check out the web site for details:

[URL="http://www2.atpflightschool.com/go.lasso?p=a&c=56870"]http://www2.atpflightschool.com/go.lasso?p=a&c=56870[/URL]

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Name a regional that doesn't have a bridge program which slashes published minimums?

I'll take SkyWest for 3 dollars Bob.

 

[CX880]

I don't favor these programs but maybe the industry has to realise that the level of training is so advanced now that 350 hour guys can fly the RJs. Also fo r those who have 1500+ hours and have not received offers, maybe you need some advanced training. Sim time is highley valued now for reg applicants. I talked to a former learjet sim instructor, he says that there is no difference between the sim and the real plane. If you can fly the sim well you can fly the real thing. Look at the military, they have similar hours when they start flying thos expensive planes. I would rather have somebody who has more sim time than 1000 hours of runs around the traffic pattern.

 

[JumpCaptain]

My sim partner at my last job was one of these 300 hour wonder kids.

He crashed on his checkride.

Twice.

And yes, in case you're wondering, he passed.

Get outta here!!! How is that possible?!

What company was that?

 

[JohnnyP]

...

I love this. Back when some of you guys had 500 hrs., if you were offered a job on an RJ or TP, you would have turned it down, right? Sure buddy, keep on telling yourself that. Right or wrong, its going on and I dont think your career would be going in any different direction if they had ATP mins for the new guys. Remember, the guy that gets hired with 2000-3000TT is going to screw up in training, fail checkrides, have a bad attitude, accept the same pay rates, just like the 500hr. guys are going to do. Just get over it.

 

[AWACoff]

Face it, boys and girls, this is what your "profession" has come to. Name a regional that doesn't have a bridge program which slashes published minimums? ...makes me sick.

Air Wisconsin does not have a bridge program.

 

[punkpilot48]

Air Wisconsin does not have a bridge program.

I know plenty of people that got hired there with less than 500 hours and the crj type.

 

[dojetdriver]

I know plenty of people that got hired there with less than 500 hours and the crj type.

I don't know "plenty", but I do know AWAC takes kids from RAA in Arizona that go through some kind of "FOS" course or something where the candidate buys a CRJ type. I heard one pinked his type ride in DEN, still got hired. Amazing.

Some of these guys buy a CRJ type and then get hired at a ERJ oepration. What a joke.

 

[punkpilot48]

Yeah I used to work at raa Ive seen plenty of guys and gals go through.

 

[jeroom]

A friend just sent me this email. Holy smoke! Is this for real?

On-Site Interviews with Pinnacle Airlines / Northwest Airlink

In just three weeks, Pinnacle Airlines (Northwest Airlink) will
interview a pool of ATP Instructors and Airline Transition Program
graduates on-site at ATP's headquarters in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.

Pinnacle will also interview a select number of pilots prior to their
enrollment in the Airline Transition Program for Conditional Offers of
Employment.

After successful completion of the interview, Pinnacle knows that
applicants will quickly gain a high level of proficiency and
standardization in ATP's 60-day Airline Transition Program. If you're
pursuing an airline job, have 350 hours total time, and would like to
know you're hired before investing $24,995, visit ATP's web site and
complete the application to be invited to 4 days of complimentary
interview and sim prep, and an interview with Pinnacle.

Check out the web site for details:

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/go.lasso?p=a&c=56870

There is no more stick and rudder pilots in those RJs... It's all about flight management and pushing buttons, a 250hr guy or gal can do that. and when it's get ugly....well hopefully the PIC will know what to do...

 

[Axel]

...It's all about flight management and pushing buttons, a 250hr guy or gal can do that...

The only substitute for experience is horsepower.

I've been conducting IOE in a 50 seater for 4 years. The low-time guys that come to me from paint-by-numbers, push-button simulator land are not ready.

It's really frustrating when you have to spend the first 2 days teaching pitch+power=performance and that you are supposed to give the ATIS code on initial contact with Approach Control. Hand-flown visual approaches are a study in airborne chaos.

I hear crew-room talk from captains who say they should be getting IOE pay for flying with the guys who just came out on the line. My response is "Hey, you got them when they had 25 hours in the airplane. I got them when they had zero."

The upgrade candidates that come to me get 25 hours of "thou shalt not let thy confidence exceed thy abilities" and "when in doubt, don't." They get absolutely no help in decision making. They get extensive debrief on their decision making, however. I develop a mental image of them flying with the FO I signed off last week and use that as the basis for my decision whether to sign them off. Sometimes I don't. It's hard work.

I intend no disrespect to these guys. I'd have gone into the right seat of a jet at 250 hours had that been available to me; as would have all of us. They are doing their best but the experience just isn't there. The check airmen are pushing for more stringent hiring minimums, but those decisions are above our paygrade. We have a pretty good idea where the deficiencies consistently lie and we keep plugging.

 

[fareview]

The only substitute for experience is horsepower.

I've been conducting IOE in a 50 seater for 4 years. The low-time guys that come to me from paint-by-numbers, push-button simulator land are not ready.

It's really frustrating when you have to spend the first 2 days teaching pitch+power=performance and that you are supposed to give the ATIS code on initial contact with Approach Control. Hand-flown visual approaches are a study in airborne chaos.

I hear crew-room talk from captains who say they should be getting IOE pay for flying with the guys who just came out on the line. My response is "Hey, you got them when they had 25 hours in the airplane. I got them when they had zero."

The upgrade candidates that come to me get 25 hours of "thou shalt not let thy confidence exceed thy abilities" and "when in doubt, don't." They get absolutely no help in decision making. They get extensive debrief on their decision making, however. I develop a mental image of them flying with the FO I signed off last week and use that as the basis for my decision whether to sign them off. Sometimes I don't. It's hard work.

I intend no disrespect to these guys. I'd have gone into the right seat of a jet at 250 hours had that been available to me; as would have all of us. They are doing their best but the experience just isn't there. The check airmen are pushing for more stringent hiring minimums, but those decisions are above our paygrade. We have a pretty good idea where the deficiencies consistently lie and we keep plugging.

If they are not qualified, why did your fellow IP's not spot this during the sim training phase?

Everywhere in the world takes ab-initio pilots with < 300, its one of the oldest debates out there. The key is making sure the filter before arriving on line is solid. If your training dept is putting thses guys on line without them beeing ready - there is a systemic issue with the filter.

respectfully.

fareview

 

[dardar]

Alot of the training these guys have is training them for the sim. The sim is different than the actual airplane. He mentioned knowing to tell approach that you have ATIS. I've found that a lot of the sim training I have recieved skips over that stuff and goes straight into "whoops! you just lost your right engine! What are you going to do now?" kind of stuff. If you come from these academies, they train you for this kind of stuff, so you become an expert at simulator emergencies. What Axel is talking about is day-to-day kind of stuff that is easily overlooked and missed with such low time.

 

[Leroy Smith]

The Quick Start Programs know which boxes need to be checked on interviews and in training. They can train to the checkride and ignore everything not applicable. Not much different than knowing your local D.E.'s "standard" checkride and training to it. Frankly, the PTS and FAR61 requirements even leave holes. As long as they never run into any situations outside of what they were trained for, all is well.

It works because the low timers are coming in with what they need to know to get the job, make it through the training syllabus and get to IOE. The IP's are the ones stuck getting them signed off and the line captains are the ones who are babysitting and keeping them safe and legal while they learn. Just like any other certification or qualification, it is the minimum standard and just a chance to learn more. Just like a new Instrument Rating, it is a great opportunity to learn a lot about flying or get dead fast. The big trick is knowing what you dont know and acting appropriately.

Kids, if you are thinking about an airline career, learn as much as you can about flying. Do yourself a favor and teach others how to fly. Teach primaries, teach a LOT of instruments, teach commercials and ATPs. If you arent interested enough to soak up everything related to flying and be the best possible instructor you can be, flying is probably not for you. Lose a bit of seniority down the road? Sure, but the industry is such a krap-shoot, who can tell if that year or two would make much difference in the long run? Luck may have it that waiting will benefit you greatly, especially if you are able to get a better feel for the industry before pledging you allegiance to any given seniority list, and have the qualifications to go for the one you really want.

If you dont LOVE the act and challenge of flying, do yourself a favor and go into another profession, you will be much happier in the long run. The pay, the lifestyle, the prestige; they are gone- or at least slipping away.

Ok, Ill come down off my high-horse now.....