would you take this offer?

[typhoonpilot]

The simple answer to this is no. Preferably no company would ever ask a pilot to pay for his own training. That is simply the cost of doing business and shouldn't be passed along to the employee. However, as 2000flyer has indicated, it does cost the company concerned money if you walk within a year or two. So that leads to the complex answer which is a bond arrangement. Again, it would be preferable that the company trusted you enough, treated you well enough, and paid you well enough that a bonding arrangement wasn't necessary but it is a way for that company to protect it's interests. Let's face it, many companies have been burned by pilots leaving shortly after getting a type.

Bonding is done a lot in Europe and Asia, especially with airlines. In a bond situation you simple sign a piece of paper promising to pay for a pro-rated cost of the training if you leave within a certain time period. Again, let me say, this is not the most optimal way to get hired but if the question came up and the company was deadly serious, it is a viable option.

Typhoonpilot

Currently on a three year bond.

 

[corp_da20_guy]

I fully understand the boding issue and the fact that the company just wants to cover its butt; however, if Ford or GM or whoever hires someone to paint cars or install windows...it does not require an employee to 1) pay for his/her own training or 2) sign a contract agreeing to repay all or part of the expenses for their training. I realize the significant cost differential between such a comparison....but I think it is still a valid one!

 

[350DRIVER]

How about requiring a type just to apply???

That is fine considering most that will be applying for the job would have obtained the type rating from a previous employer at the operators expense... I am sure some (me not being one of them) would go out and "buy" a type just to apply for a job, just extremely unprofessional and a slap in the face (in my opinion).

SWA

Exactly why I have absolutely no ambition or desire to ever want to fly for them... Since this thread is concerning corporate flight departments how about stating a company along these lines that requires you to pay for the initial training.? I apologize for not making that clear in my previous post which was too general, should have seen the SWA answer coming my way.
Eagle Jet INT. also promotes 737 time and some have said they have the "exclusive" agreement with SWA and if this holds true then no wonder why they always make the big bucks... (really hope there is no truth to this since it is bad enough to have to go buy the type just to get the interview with them...

I'd do it if I had no better options, sounds like an okay deal.

I have no doubts in my mind that a few others may agree with you on this one, I just have a different mindset I guess..

Not to mention a salary, benefits and so forth, but the training investment is, I repeat, IS a large sum.

I absolutely agree with you 100% hands down. I just tend to feel that if a company can afford to buy a GV or a Falcon then they must surely be able to "afford" to train the crews at the company's own expense. Like I said I have yet to meet one large flight department (corporate world) that requires the employee to pay for the training costs....


3 5 0

although with Eagle Jet maybee we will start to see a change in how the industry is operating....(hope not)

 

[banned username 2]

Corporate flight department with a good reputation offers you a job as an F/O on a large jet (GV, Citation X, Falcon 900 ect.)

Anal Check....

A G-V is a "Ultra Long Range" or "Very Large" Jet
A Falcon 900EX is a "Large" Jet
A Citation X is a "Mid-sized" Jet

Each is in it's own class... Apples and Oranges I tell ya'...

Now if you said: "G-IVsp, Falcon 900EX and Challenger 604" now you are comparing Apples to Apples.

Ok, done with that rant....

As far as costs, I know the annual costs for a Falcon 900EX full service Flight Safety contract are over $30,000 per year...

 

[AZaviator]

I’d have no problem with signing a contract, but the company better pay for the training.

I think Wiggums said it best. I'd have no problem signing a contract, but only as long as the company pays for the training. Its a way for them to cover their butt if they were afraid of you leaving shortly after getting your type rating. That's the only way to do it, in my opinion.

How about requiring a type just to apply???

That's a very good question/comment too!

 

[typhoonpilot]

corp_da20_guy:

Again, let me say, I don't agree with the practice of asking someone to pay for their own training or even to sign a bond, but the reality of the world is that it is going to happen. In my career it is happened many times and I have come down on both sides of the answer.

I am with some of the posters on this thread in that I wouldn't ever go out and pay for my own type rating to have a chance at Southwest. I could have done that in the early 90s and if I was successful then perhaps I would be a Captain there today. I also could have gone to Valuejet when they started but I wasn't willing to fork over $9000 to Flight Safety for the training ( this when I already had a DC-9 type ). Had I done so again I would be in a better position today.

At one company I worked for as a DC-9 F.O. they forced myself and another guy into the decision to pay for a portion of our own upgrade. It was a crappy situation and we both agonized over it for a long time but in the end we decided to do it because the benefits outweighed the negative aspect of the situation. That decision led to numerous other high paying jobs as an MD-80 and MD-90 Captain and Instructor.

Now, as I indicated in my previous post, I am on a bond for three years. It was no brainer to sign since this is the best international airline in the world and I have no intention of leaving here inside three years.

Typhoonpilot

 

[p.b.]

I know of a company where the pilot takes a personal loan which is guaranteed (co-signed) by the company. The company agrees to cover the loan as long as the pilots remain employed, if the pilot quits they are responible to repay the loan from their own pocket. This keeps the company from being burned by pilots wiggling out of training contracts.

To the original poster...if you are going to be an SIC, why do they want you to dish out the extra 3 or 4 thousand it costs to go to type school? Why don't you get an SIC endorsement instead?

 

[JimNtexas]

Do companies ever use the carrot of a retention bonus, paid to the new pilot after x months of employment? This is commonly done in the tech industry for good engineers, even now.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Yes in a manner of speaking, some of the overseas contractors do that as well as some airlines that offer contract only.

IASCO was doing it for the MD-80 job in Fukuoka. They withheld something like $500 per month on a five year contract. Saudi Arabian did it as well, although I can't remember the particulars.

I haven't heard of any corporations doing that though. What they do do is pay you at a significantly lower rate the first year to offset the cost of training.

Again, I don't condone that kind of business and have passed on jobs because of it. One contractor for a very lucrative MD-90 job wanted to withhold $2000 per month on a three year contract. He was a small time operator and I could easily see him walking off with the cash at the end of the contract so I passed on the deal as did others.

Typhoonpilot

 

[Ralph]

Listen carefully, this is what that says.

"We plan to treat you like CRAP. In addition to flying you will be cleaning the monkey cages. Because of this we expect you to quit. In fact we are SURE you will want to quit shortly after your first experience with the monkey cages. Because of this we need to find a way to try and FORCE you to stay. If it was legal to use the attack monkeys we would. Unfortunately its not, so we just have this training contract, or you pay we pay you back contract, or whatever it is."

Is that clear? I don't think it will be a crappy job, I KNOW it will. If it was not people would not jump ship shortly after training. So the question is, are you desperate enough for a job that you will take a crappy one? Ignore the PFT argument and just decide if you want a job bad enough to work at a place where you WILL be treated like crap. If you don't someone else will.

 

[captainv]

Think of this another way, say the company goes under in the middle of this. guess who still has to pay for the training?

i've seen a few guys take a deal like this. for some, everything worked out great. another guygot stiffed for the type when the company changed its mind about paying him back, then fired him when he made a stink about it. probably found another young guy eager to get a job in place.

as others have said, a reputable company wouldn't ask you to do this in the first place, but if you're eager to take the gamble and pay that much money, spend a little more and have a lawyer draw up a proper contract. at least it'll make the lawsuit easier...

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

The opportunity doesn't quite meet the generally-accepted test of P-F-T, i.e. (1) that money changes hands from applicant to employer as a condition of employment and (2) that the paid-for training is good only at the company in question and not elsewhere. For one thing, a type rating is good anywhere. Another point is the company would rebate the cost, although it would force you to sign a contract.

This situation differs from SW. I must disagree with my good friend 350. Perhaps putting down the big bucks for the 737 type is a crapshoot, but SW is a known quantity. I don't feel that you can go wrong by getting on with SW.

I agree with others who raise the point about the company's reputation. If the place is indeed reputable and a good place at which to work, why would someone in his/her right mind leave in times like these? While no job is 100% perfect, something like this situation raises an alarm flag(s) in my mind.

My gut reaction is, no, I wouldn't do it. This situation is not quite on point to the P-F-T devil, but is indeed dangerously close to it. I just can't bring myself to pay for training.

Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your decision.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

one final time for the record it's a hypothetical situation.
ok, granted in times like these I agree that it would raise a flag as to why the company is afraid of loosing anyone short term.
but 3 years ago when places couldn't find enough qualified (insurable in business world terms) pilots and they were repeatedly being burned by pilots taking the job getting the training/type then jumping to a better paying gig because of the type leaving the original company stiffed on its investment.
sitting in the chief pilot's chair trying to explain all these large costs to the CFO what would you say to him?

Sorry to Falcon Capt. But then again when all I get to fly are chickenhawks (ce-172) even a navajo looks like a big plane to me.
I can't really imagine getting a shot at any type of Falcon/Gulfstream/Challenger. Maybe someday I'll be lucky enough to get paid to fly something without propellers.

 

[bobbysamd]

one final time for the record it's a hypothetical situation.
ok, granted in times like these I agree that it would raise a flag as to why the company is afraid of loosing anyone short term.
but 3 years ago when places couldn't find enough qualified (insurable in business world terms) pilots and they were repeatedly being burned by pilots taking the job getting the training/type then jumping to a better paying gig because of the type leaving the original company stiffed on its investment . . . .

But that was three years ago. We're talking about here and now. Believe me, the hypothetical place in question can now set any quals it wants and will have no shortage of applicants who will jump for joy to stay for the duration.

 

[Skaz]

It seems that the aviation industry over there is a bit different than here.

The company I'm employed by doesnt give us ratings. We pay half and the company pays half. The bit you pay is added to your training account and payments are deducted off your salary every month.
Some companies, like Air Quarius, has you sign a training bond for two years to go fly a F28 somewhere in the armpit of africa.

Having an amount deducted off your salary every month is a reality we here have to live with, and do so gratefully, because not to, is not to fly and have a job. You guys should stop whining and be gratefull you have jobs..
250 plus cathay guys are staring being fired in the face....catch a wake up.