Look here Mr. Atafan, you'll never be allowed as a member of the APA using that kind of language!
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World, ATA , and North American
- Thread starter Whine Lover
- Start date
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Look here Mr. Atafan, you'll never be allowed as a member of the APA using that kind of language!
ATA For Now!
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2004
- Posts
- 269
There are always large holes in contracts and ours is no different. There are ways that pilot groups who are unified and dedicated enough can fill the holes. Hopefully our combined group(s) of pilots can be one of those.
As stated above the ATA pilots for the most part are willing to do what's right even if it hurts. Believe me, we have gone through this already within our own Pilot/FE seniority list. It hasn't always been pretty but it has been done.
The worst thing for all of our pilot groups would be to have three different pilot groups, with three different contracts, being whipsawed for the same flying.
PHXFLYR
USAir by default
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
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- 2,177
Huh-huh.....Sounds just like "2 great companies,1 great future" Anyone remember how that one went?
PHXFLYR
atafan
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2003
- Posts
- 434
Management is all besides themselves saying that this is a great thing for the company and the employees.
I see this as potentially a great thing but considering the actors in this play we, the employees, will probably get a spanking. Transferring assets, "Right Sizing" each airline and the eventual whipsawing of the pilot groups with the sell off of assets. This is more in line with the way M.P works.
I don't know if the pilots can do anything but we need to at least attempt to stick together and be unified. I know that the industry's history doesn't show much of this but if we don't we might as well just throw in the towel right now.
I see this as potentially a great thing but considering the actors in this play we, the employees, will probably get a spanking. Transferring assets, "Right Sizing" each airline and the eventual whipsawing of the pilot groups with the sell off of assets. This is more in line with the way M.P works.
I don't know if the pilots can do anything but we need to at least attempt to stick together and be unified. I know that the industry's history doesn't show much of this but if we don't we might as well just throw in the towel right now.
Sure we do.........just like we did during the last days at TWA. They're junior relative to seniority and as an added bonus, post menopause.
ATA For Now!
Well-known member
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- 269
CaptSeth
Well-known member
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That's for me to know, and you to find out sometime after I've been there first.
The real question, loverboy, seems to be why are you so fixated on it? This is like the fifth time you've mentioned my preferred hairstyle.
I think you have a fetish.
ATA For Now!
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 269
As a NAA guy, I am glad to hear most of the posts are leaning towards a fair and equitable solution. Date of hire would hurt most of our pilot group as a great many of our group is relatively junior. We have a few codgers around though.
A lot of miles must come to pass before we get there.
First, The acquistion has to be approved. The stockholders will probably bite though as it seems they are being offered twice the stock amount value.
Second, Global seems intent on keeping the three seperate airlines seperate.
I for one would support a merger of the lists, even with a DOH integration, we need to stick together, otherwise all three will played against each other.
I just want the good out of each companies contract(ours is currently a guideline in the fourth year of negotiation).
P3flteng
A lot of miles must come to pass before we get there.
First, The acquistion has to be approved. The stockholders will probably bite though as it seems they are being offered twice the stock amount value.
Second, Global seems intent on keeping the three seperate airlines seperate.
I for one would support a merger of the lists, even with a DOH integration, we need to stick together, otherwise all three will played against each other.
I just want the good out of each companies contract(ours is currently a guideline in the fourth year of negotiation).
P3flteng
HalinTexas
昇る太陽の土&#
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- 1,536
North American will be the first to get whipscrewed.......
We have a computer guy, pretty d@mn smart one, that's trying to put together an independent, unsensored forum, unlike this one, so that ATA, WA and NA pilots can communicate. We need furloughed ATA pilots working for NA or World to forward a seniority list so that it can be made private. Then we can all cuss each other out, but at least get an inkling (sp?) of what the other parties are thinking.
We have a computer guy, pretty d@mn smart one, that's trying to put together an independent, unsensored forum, unlike this one, so that ATA, WA and NA pilots can communicate. We need furloughed ATA pilots working for NA or World to forward a seniority list so that it can be made private. Then we can all cuss each other out, but at least get an inkling (sp?) of what the other parties are thinking.
HalinTexas
昇る太陽の土&#
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They are Teamsters, but as I understand it, there is no contract after 4 years. Managment will really mess with you if you can ever get released from mediation for self-help.
coastinout
coastinout
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- 39
We have been told by our negotiators here at NAA that the mediator has said these (April 20-24rd-approx) are our last talks. We think we can get a contract in this session. But we will see, we have authorized a strike and have a strike committee set up.
So pay attention if you start doing a lot of extra Military flying at the end of May if we don't get a contract and strike.
If you are interested, I am coming up on 3 years at NAA and am less than 10 numbers out on upgrade.
I am not sure how happy our management would be to hire furloughed ATA guys. We just had 3 leave (with less than a year on the property) to go back to ATA.
Best of luck to all. I hope we can all help protect each other.
Coastinout
So pay attention if you start doing a lot of extra Military flying at the end of May if we don't get a contract and strike.
If you are interested, I am coming up on 3 years at NAA and am less than 10 numbers out on upgrade.
I am not sure how happy our management would be to hire furloughed ATA guys. We just had 3 leave (with less than a year on the property) to go back to ATA.
Best of luck to all. I hope we can all help protect each other.
Coastinout
In my opinion NAA management does not believe we will be released from the mediator, and / or we will actually be able to strike without Presidential interference.
Watch for some extra flying being added to World and maybe even ATA if and when we get released. I would hope our brothers and sisters at these other companies will respect our strike and not allow the company to whipsaw us by picking up our struck flying.
Watch for some extra flying being added to World and maybe even ATA if and when we get released. I would hope our brothers and sisters at these other companies will respect our strike and not allow the company to whipsaw us by picking up our struck flying.
ATA Dave,
This line in our contract is a requirement for obtaining DOD/AMC work. I would hazard a guess that its written somewhere in your contract. And remember AMC has always been the bread and butter of WOA since its start in 1948. It will be sad to see another great company get parted out just like NAA and ATA will be in a couple of years, and the subsquent whipsawing of the work groups against each other. Watch out after the Nov 08 elections.
HalinTexas
昇る太陽の土&#
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There is nothing in our contract prohibiting pilots from striking DoD work. I just looked it up. (Ain't search engines great?)
MD11Drvr
Still Learning
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2005
- Posts
- 398
It was determined WOA could have struck the AMC adhoc but not the fixed buy flying. This is the second carrier I have flown for that did AMC and the first had this clause as well. I was led to believe it was a requiremnet from Scott AFB (AMC). As for striking the ad-hoc AMC, it was strongly felt by the pilot group that we did not want to disrupt the troops going home from war. If the strike had lasted longer who knows what would happened but I feel like most would not have wanted to cause the PR nightmare that would have come from not moving the troops back and fourth from the states. It is one thing to disrupt Joe businessman or Vicki Vacation but a different matter when it comes to the troops. Our pilot group is largely former military and the last thing anyone would want is to disrupt military personal from getting home. I wish NAA the best of luck but if they do strike and they will see how diffficult it is to track "thier" flying. The Adhoc flying will just be shuffled around to WOA or ATA and it will appear as though it was thiers all along. WOA had this problem as flying was picked by other carriers but to prove who's flying it was in the first palce was impossible to prove. As for NAA's known flying I am sure WOA will honor the line. Again Good Luck
cathaywannabe
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Whine Lover
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This is just an opinion... but from reading the SEC filings, it appears that "GAL" (the old ATA Holidngs) is using a wholly-owned subsidiary named "Hugo Acquisition Group" to purchase World Air Holdings. Once the transaction is completed, the "GAL" wholly-owned subsidiary will retain the name of the company it acquired; that being "World Air Holdings".
In a nutshell, "GAL" will end up owning ATA Airlines and World Air Holdings, and through it's ownership of World Air Holdings, GAL will also own World Airlines and North American Airlines.
Skipper
In a nutshell, "GAL" will end up owning ATA Airlines and World Air Holdings, and through it's ownership of World Air Holdings, GAL will also own World Airlines and North American Airlines.
Skipper
“This line in our contract is a requirement for obtaining DOD/AMC work.”
Pwhipped
Dear Pwhipped,
I don’t think so. No such provision exists as it would be in contrast to the intent of the railway labor act. Such a provision would be illegal, thus unenforceable.
If you feel I am incorrect, please post here any such stipulation issued concerning contracts with any government agency. I will then gladly and immediately admit I was wrong and apologize. In the mean time, respectfully Sir, I suggest you stop posting as fact every rumor you hear in the crew room. They’ve been peeing on your head son and telling you it’s raining.
“As for striking the ad-hoc AMC, it was strongly felt by the pilot group that we did not want to disrupt the troops going home from war.”
“I wish NAA the best of luck but if they do strike and they will see how difficult it is to track "thier" flying. The Adhoc flying will just be shuffled around to WOA or ATA and it will appear as though it was thiers all along. WOA had this problem as flying was picked by other carriers but to prove who's flying it was in the first palce was impossible to prove. As for NAA's known flying I am sure WOA will honor the line. Again Good Luck”
Md11drvr
Dear MD11drvr,
Yes, strikes hurt people. That’s the way it goes. Now before you go and call me unpatriotic and start russlin’ up a lynching committee, please allow me to submit the fact that I am a retired AF C-141 guy, the same as many of you over @ WA. Strikes aren’t effective if they don’t hurt. Obviously we have to be careful that we hurt the right people whilst minimizing collateral damage. Incidentally, I think it should be pointed out that we haul troops in both directions, but that’s not the point here. The point is that the company looses money continuously until it ceases to exist, and the troops get put on another airline at a higher cost. Here’s the bottom line – when it comes time to park the airplanes, I don’t care if my Mom’s on it going to visit her Mom. The airplanes get parked.
As stated above, the troops go on another airplane. This becomes a new ad-hoc military charter, and you are correct, it will be tough if not impossible to get another pilot group to treat, or even recognize this as struck work. Unfortunately, the ATA pilot group, as long as we are a separate group, is contractually forbidden from recognizing this as struck work in a provision called “no strike, no lockout”.
LETTER XI
OF
AGREEMENT
Subject: No Strike Clause/No Lockout
THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is entered into by and between American Trans Air, Inc. (the "Company” or “ATA”) and the Air Line Pilots Association, International (the "Association") pursuant to the terms of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
Section 26.C of the Agreement notwithstanding, for the term of this Agreement, neither the Association nor any employees represented by the Association will authorize, support or engage in any strikes, work stoppages, slowdowns, job actions (including any sympathy strike or refusal to cross picket lines established by other unions for other ATA work groups) directed against the Company; provided, however, that the Association and the employees represented by the Association may refuse to cross a picket line established by ALPA represented crewmembers of another Air Carrier. The Company reserves the right to discipline, up to and including discharge, any employee who violates any portion of this provision. Further, the Company shall not cause, permit, or engage in any lockout of its Crewmembers during the term of this Agreement.
This Letter of Agreement shall be effective upon execution of and shall run concurrently with the Collective Bargaining Agreement effective July 1, 2002.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Letter of Agreement this _____ day of _______________, 2002.
This is but one of many reasons we must become one group immediately if this deal closes.
Fraternally and Respectfully,
Dave Withers
Pwhipped
Dear Pwhipped,
I don’t think so. No such provision exists as it would be in contrast to the intent of the railway labor act. Such a provision would be illegal, thus unenforceable.
If you feel I am incorrect, please post here any such stipulation issued concerning contracts with any government agency. I will then gladly and immediately admit I was wrong and apologize. In the mean time, respectfully Sir, I suggest you stop posting as fact every rumor you hear in the crew room. They’ve been peeing on your head son and telling you it’s raining.
“As for striking the ad-hoc AMC, it was strongly felt by the pilot group that we did not want to disrupt the troops going home from war.”
“I wish NAA the best of luck but if they do strike and they will see how difficult it is to track "thier" flying. The Adhoc flying will just be shuffled around to WOA or ATA and it will appear as though it was thiers all along. WOA had this problem as flying was picked by other carriers but to prove who's flying it was in the first palce was impossible to prove. As for NAA's known flying I am sure WOA will honor the line. Again Good Luck”
Md11drvr
Dear MD11drvr,
Yes, strikes hurt people. That’s the way it goes. Now before you go and call me unpatriotic and start russlin’ up a lynching committee, please allow me to submit the fact that I am a retired AF C-141 guy, the same as many of you over @ WA. Strikes aren’t effective if they don’t hurt. Obviously we have to be careful that we hurt the right people whilst minimizing collateral damage. Incidentally, I think it should be pointed out that we haul troops in both directions, but that’s not the point here. The point is that the company looses money continuously until it ceases to exist, and the troops get put on another airline at a higher cost. Here’s the bottom line – when it comes time to park the airplanes, I don’t care if my Mom’s on it going to visit her Mom. The airplanes get parked.
As stated above, the troops go on another airplane. This becomes a new ad-hoc military charter, and you are correct, it will be tough if not impossible to get another pilot group to treat, or even recognize this as struck work. Unfortunately, the ATA pilot group, as long as we are a separate group, is contractually forbidden from recognizing this as struck work in a provision called “no strike, no lockout”.
LETTER
OF
AGREEMENT
Subject: No Strike Clause/No Lockout
THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is entered into by and between American Trans Air, Inc. (the "Company” or “ATA”) and the Air Line Pilots Association, International (the "Association") pursuant to the terms of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
Section 26.C of the Agreement notwithstanding, for the term of this Agreement, neither the Association nor any employees represented by the Association will authorize, support or engage in any strikes, work stoppages, slowdowns, job actions (including any sympathy strike or refusal to cross picket lines established by other unions for other ATA work groups) directed against the Company; provided, however, that the Association and the employees represented by the Association may refuse to cross a picket line established by ALPA represented crewmembers of another Air Carrier. The Company reserves the right to discipline, up to and including discharge, any employee who violates any portion of this provision. Further, the Company shall not cause, permit, or engage in any lockout of its Crewmembers during the term of this Agreement.
This Letter of Agreement shall be effective upon execution of and shall run concurrently with the Collective Bargaining Agreement effective July 1, 2002.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Letter of Agreement this _____ day of _______________, 2002.
This is but one of many reasons we must become one group immediately if this deal closes.
Fraternally and Respectfully,
Dave Withers
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