Women and minority pilots.

[Hipster Loser]

black and hispanic, yeah but what about asians. Many asians pilots flying at majors or the regionals?

 

[reject007]

Director of Channel 4 News: We're talking about diversity.

Champ: What in the hell is diversity?

Ron Burgundy: I believe I can answer this one. Diversity was an old old wooden ship that was used in the civil war era.

 

[Say Again Over]

With respect to screwing up, women tend to mishandle the aircraft more frequently, while men-- ego thing-- tend to exercise poorer judgment (IMC, ice, etc.).

EASY! , some of my best friends are women.:nuts:

 

[FearlessFreep]

Until your a minority in this career field ya'll can shut yer pie holes! It's not a cake walk. For one time I would like it if all the women/minority pilot bashers would have to live ONE day as an individual in one of those groups - then you might have a better understanding of just what is going on.

Have some people gotten inordinate breaks? Yes, and this holds to all groups of people including white males. I have seen dorky dolt pilot representatives from all groups. I have seen excellent professional pilots from all groups as well.

I am a minority and I have tried to keep my involvement in this career as gender neutral as possible. I am always surprised with each incident of gender bias that I experience. I have friends that face unbelievable adversity from an outwardly discriminatory management on a daily basis.

It all comes down to individuals.

Midnight Flyer,
With the whining you have demonstrated here if you had a clam you couldn't handle being at Fedex or any flying job for that matter, "What's for dinner hon?" is about the only thing that you might be able to handle.

No hard feelings pal, I'll buy you a beer (or whatever libation you desire) at the F Street.

These minority/women pilot threads are just getting old. Y'all just need to grow up.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Funny, the same could be said about black pilots (getting a position due to their minority status). Dude, just as some guys look at me and probably think I got all my jobs with no qualifications, trust me, just because you have a penis, if you are black, they are looking at you thinking the same thing.

Yeah, every white guy at FedEx got the job because he was the most qualified

Don't listen to advice from someone who has that scumbucket Kanye or Kayne or whatever West as their avatar.

Fearless,
Very well said. It is old but unfortunately stupidity and ignorance will never go away. I would rather not have affirmative action than deal with this b.s. I guarantee I would be in he same place I am now anyways.

Although...one cannot deny that many women make it to positions that might not be the best qualified for because they can check that box (box, get it?) I say good for them.

anyone have a link to that Fedex broad who wrecked the MD11?...she is the perfect expample of this. If she was a he she would have NEVER been there...she should not have been behind the wheel of a minivan, nvermind an MD11.

right or wrong, just an undeniable fact.

 

[hoover]

Somebody once told me they heard a female pilot ask ATC for a shortcut to some fix and ATC said 'no'. After that, an anonymous voice got on the radio and commented "your whole career has been a shortcut".

Yeah, because airlines have always beaten a path to the door of every woman or black with a pilot certificate and a pulse. When was the first woman pilot hired? 1973? People seem to forget about the first 50 years of this industry, when if you weren't a white male, you could forget it.

 

[BoilerUP]

So from what I gather from this thread, if you are a gay black woman, your career in aviation is paved with gold? Is that about right? Does checking those boxes automatically qualify you to put "1000 TJ PIC" in your logbook? Where does your daddy being a CP equate into all of this?

In my limited experience, every woman or minority hired at UPS in the past year was highly qualified, equal or moreso than their "average white guy" newhire counterparts. Besides, I don't see how any of this is different than having a stack of LORs; they might get you an interview, but after that its up to you to get the job!

9GClub - I read that same info in a Flying magazine article a few years back, but I cannot remember the source of their data, either. After a couple years of observing and flying with different people, I've come to agree with their conclusions.

 

[hindsight2020]

Yeah but the point that is trying to be made is that, on average, minorities DO NOT have the access to that "stack of LOR's", or are otherwise positively networked, as whites. And that's a fact supported by the demographics.

That is the real point that needs to be stressed. It is also the reason why affirmative action doesn't sit well with people, nor works effectively for that matter. For the record, I oppose affirmative action, but for a different reason than most people disapprove of it.

Calling it for what it is, affirmative action intends to circumvent the biggest subjective factor that differentiates the bulk of whites and non-whites: social connection. The outcome of this circumventing is an obvious distaste for what is perceived as "shortcutting" and giving people things they didn't earn, when measured by an established metric. (although the objective values of the metrics themselves can be argued as well..but that's another thread)

The problem is that you just can't have the cake and eat it too. If people are going to throw a fit about affirmative action they also have to come to terms with the impending reality that in a white-dominated aviation culture it is fundamentally less likely that minorities will be able to: 1)have access of entry (money and sponsorship, both economical and vocational) and 2)culture support (i.e. support by the culture of aviation, which is white by default, from the mom and pops FBO to the major 121 operators).

Most of the bigger anti-affirmative action loudmouths I know happen to also be of the disposition to deny that there is any fundamental disparity in access and social reach between whites and non-whites, therefore labeling minorities inmoral in their choices, hence why they can't reach goals in aviation ('don't work hard enough' argument), or other fields. I don't think that view is necessarily the prevailing view on the part of whites, but I do suggest it is the prevailing view among whites who benefited more than average from their socio-racial position. So when people argue about affirmative action, the real issue gets lost in the "you didn't deserve that" yelling match. The real question is "what are we going to do about the culture?"

The US Air Force is a great example of the prevalence of the fundamental lack of access to the culture of aviation. The demographics are just blatant. However, I don't have a problem with that when you consider the rationale. They just do not have a need to exercise affirmative action, or any other direct hiring isolation practice, in their pilot selection pool, nor should they. The basis being that they are not going to lower the standards of entry to fulfill their manning needs. And they don't need to. There are sufficient white applicants to fulfill their need. Are they the best? No. But they are good enough. The problem we encounter then is, once again, one of institutional culture. Should the Air Force invest in changing the institutional culture so to foster the aspiration of minority pilots? Unfortunately, the Air Force's answer is NO. Why? Because they don't need to. That and a little bit of they want to keep the cockpit, as opposed to other fields in the Force, white, but that's my soapbox and it would take another thread to tackle that one.

I'll add some comments on the topic of tokenism. I am Hispanic for the record, and in one of my Guard unit visits I encountered a pilot who was also of the same particular Hispanic persuasion as I was. The dialogue went like this:

White-pilot-X: "Yo "John", this kid is (insert ethnicity here) just like you"
"John": "Sorry kid, there's only enough space for one (insert ethnicity) in this squadron"

And deep down inside he wasn't kidding. The biggest detractors to upward mobility to a minority, within a white-dominated culture base is, you guessed it, another minority that shares the same background. And the reason for that is tokenism.

Tokens are NOT the product of affirmative action, tokens are the 90th percentile of the minority group that was able to break through and adapt to the culture, therefore it is a challenge to the standing of a token to have another one come in and devaluate his value in the culture (simple economic case of number of members entering a particular market). And the problem is that the pilot world, both in the civilian and military side, cater to a status quo culture that only is able to induct the top specimens of a particular ethnicity, satisfying both the need to 1) have applicants who can do the job and earned it in their own right (appeasing the whites who argue it was a hand-out), and 2) keeping the culture white as a function of the inherent small numbers of minorities that possess the ability to break through and adapt on their own.

So once again, I too disagree with affirmative action, but not for the "he didn't deserve it" reason that most shout about. I don't think affirmative action tackles the cultural question that is the real culprit in the inability of minorities to make the pilot ranks have a representative percentage of what the demographics of this country are. The unwilligness of people to change, or even feel as though the culture needs changing (this is the most common one), is the real issue. I will never advocate the lowering of safety and standards to appease our social shortcomings (hence my opposition to affirmative action) but I also recognize the unwillingness of the base to change the culture, which ironically is what brings on "fit the d$mn square thru the round hole" measures like affirmative action.

We can't have the cake and it too folks. You have to acknowlege the problem before you can do anything about it. Taking the tangent about affirmative action is reasonable (I agree with you), but just a mere distraction from the real issue.

 

[HawkerF/O]

The other day I was speaking to an F/O for a regional carrier (i won't say which one) about women pilots. He gave me a number that was something like 90% of all incidents in his company, involved a women flight crew member.

That F/O is a loser. 90% of the accidents caused by the excat group of professionals that make up less than 3% of the carrier's total pilot workforce, if that? You're smarter than that. You should have told that switch monkey to sux it.

 

[FastCargo]

Yeah but the point that is trying to be made is that, on average ... but just a mere distraction from the real issue.

Condensed to save bandwidth.

Very interesting post, and maybe makes a point about getting to the root of the problem. The question is, how do you make a culture change? How do you change the attitudes and minds of people on both sides of this issue? What if in a social group, different ethnic groups self-segregate? Are you going to force them to not do that to make the group more homogenious? Are you going to get rid of the Chinatowns?

As humans, we in general gather in groups we are comfortable in...to be around people 'like us'. Until 'like us' means 'Homo Sapiens' in all our variety, we will gather in groups on our own, and our society will reflect that.

FastCargo

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's Kanye (CON-Yay)not Kayne my brotha

Rook

George Bush hates Air Line Pilots!

 

[bobbyice]

We had an African-American flight instructor at my old school. Of course, he was a white guy from South Africa. Lucky for him he can still check the box...

 

[Draginass]

I had a good friend (African-American) who was also a USAF pilot. I asked him why there weren't more black pilots. He said he went out to schools, etc. to try and interest young black people in becoming pilots, but there was not much interest in being a pilot. He was at a loss to explain it. My own thoughts are that pop youth culture in the black community views discipline and conformity negatively . . . things that are the basics in aviation.

 

[FN FAL]

If God had given me a clam instead of a crank, I'd be with FedEx right now

...or at the minimum, we could plow you, if you asked us nice enough.

 

[cjs]

For God's sake people stop being so damned PC and drop the hyphenated-American crap. Are you afraid of calling a black guy "black" to his face when he'd call you "white" in a heartbeat?

Regarding affirmative action, it only sets people up for failure. If you can't get the job on your own merits, then you shouldn't be performing that job, period. I don't care if you're a white, black, or purple. Spare us the "disadvantaged" claptrap we've been force-fed from the left-wing. Life isn't fair, some whites get all the breaks, then again, some blacks do. Nothing will change that, unless you wouldn't mind living in a commune. Don't expect Uncle Sam to step in and fight your battles for you. People love to talk about "levelling" the playing field, but no one seems to concern themselves with the cost of such measures: the animosity it creates and the burden it places on minorities who will never know if their race factored into their career progress. Instead of looking to others for a helping hand, look inward, set your goals, and let nothing stand in your way.

I find it very telling the people focus so intently on perceived inequities exploited by the majority (such as the controversy over predominantly white quarterbacks in the NFL), yet fail to turn the problem on it's head and ask why basketball players are predominantly black, or guards, tackles, linebackers, etc. and receivers in the NFL. White guilt in action, ladies and gentlemen .. and what a pathetically sad show it is.

 

[riddlechick241]

There are a few african american pilots and a lot less female african american pilots and i happen to be one of them. It's so funny because, when i told my high school guidance counsler i wanted to be a pilot he had the nerve to say " maybe u should consider something else" IF HE COULD SEE ME NOW...

 

[hindsight2020]

For God's sake people stop being so danged PC and drop the hyphenated-American crap. Are you afraid of calling a black guy "black" to his face when he'd call you "white" in a heartbeat?

Regarding affirmative action, it only sets people up for failure. If you can't get the job on your own merits, then you shouldn't be performing that job, period. I don't care if you're a white, black, or purple. Spare us the "disadvantaged" claptrap we've been force-fed from the left-wing. Life isn't fair, some whites get all the breaks, then again, some blacks do. Nothing will change that, unless you wouldn't mind living in a commune. Don't expect Uncle Sam to step in and fight your battles for you. People love to talk about "levelling" the playing field, but no one seems to concern themselves with the cost of such measures: the animosity it creates and the burden it places on minorities who will never know if their race factored into their career progress. Instead of looking to others for a helping hand, look inward, set your goals, and let nothing stand in your way.

I find it very telling the people focus so intently on perceived inequities exploited by the majority (such as the controversy over predominantly white quarterbacks in the NFL), yet fail to turn the problem on it's head and ask why basketball players are predominantly black, or guards, tackles, linebackers, etc. and receivers in the NFL. White guilt in action, ladies and gentlemen .. and what a pathetically sad show it is.

Swing and a miss.....calm down Archie, so far the vast majority of folks in this thread have expressed their disagreement with affirmative action. You on the other hand, are a case and point of the people I was talking about in my previous reply. Fighting with yourself, "WORK HARD!!"-spouting fella. The mere fact that you constantly stress throughout your post that inequities are perceived and not real, it testament to how dismissive you are to the ramifications of the statement "life isn't fair", statement which YOU endorse no less!

You throw a tantrum at affirmative action (no beef there chief), but fail to yield an inch to the possibility that minorities are not gaining access by reasons other than "they're just morally bankrupt: i.e. won't work, are racially or socially predisposed to ask for a handout and therefore we [white people] don't owe them sh%t". The preceeding being the translation to the euphemism that was your post.

Then you proceed to defend your reasons for defending the status quo culture (the real problem at hand), by using the "blacks in sports" case-study and pathetically attempting to suggest it is a microcosm of the entire American society in the context of minorities and work access. How about you look in the mirror and ascertain whether or not you're really impartial to non-whites having access to commonly-white jobs and vocational fields. The result of that exercise might surprise you.

FastCargo hit it right in the head, and definitively got the core of my "thesis", when he raised the question of whether or not we are inclined, or even able, to re-shape our social sub-structure to allow others different than us, in physical appearance and cultural context, to compete against us for positions and aspirations we hold dear. I agree we are far from that point, a lot of re-socializing that needs to take place, even as we enter 2006, but a social dynamic that at the very least needs to be recognized, and not rationalized and dismissed like our friend Archie over here.

 

[socrates1]

ASA now has a black female FO. I have seen, and flown with, many black pilots. I have seen, and flown with, many female pilots. I have only seen one black female pilot. As a white male who lives in GA can I say "you go girl." I was there when she walked into the crew lounge in ATL with her IOE CA. Many jaws dropped, including my own. I don't know her, and have never flown with her. I will not pass judgment on her either. But you were talking about minorities, and ASA has a minority that I have never seen walking through a terminal ever. Has anyone outside of ASA seen a black female airline pilot?

 

[:-)]

Why would anyone post an opinion on this topic?

 

[cjs]

Swing and a miss.....calm down Archie, so far the vast majority of folks in this thread have expressed their disagreement with affirmative action. You on the other hand, are a case and point of the people I was talking about in my previous reply. Fighting with yourself, "WORK HARD!!"-spouting fella. The mere fact that you constantly stress throughout your post that inequities are perceived and not real, it testament to how dismissive you are to the ramifications of the statement "life isn't fair", statement which YOU endorse no less!

This should be obvious to the casual reader, but I'll break it down for you. "Perceived" implies that the inequities may or may not exist, because "inequities" is a vague concept. There isn't one man on this planet who is equal to another in all respects. Furthermore, the cultures they espouse are not equal by any stretch of the imagination. The only equality men can enjoy is equality before the law. Thus, when a social crusader such as yourself shouts "inequality! unfair!" or something to this effect, I'm not at all surprised. It should be obvious that the game we play is unfair, because all men have been bestowed with different abilities and resources. Although it is unfair in that respect (and in that respect, we can do nothing, for this is the nature of capitalism and mankind), it is fair in the most important respect, that being, the rules we play by are fair, regardless of race, creed, or gender (ignoring affirmative action, of course). This is the crucial point.

You throw a tantrum at affirmative action (no beef there chief), but fail to yield an inch to the possibility that minorities are not gaining access by reasons other than "they're just morally bankrupt: i.e. won't work, are racially or socially predisposed to ask for a handout and therefore we [white people] don't owe them sh%t". The preceeding being the translation to the euphemism that was your post.

How about you let me speak for myself, rather than speculating. Whether certain societies/cultures are predisposed to ask for a "handout", I'm not going to debate here, not now, not on New Year's Eve. What I will argue is that cultures do vary in the quality/nature of child rearing and mentoring, and, as a result, men who espouse different cultures will pursue a wide gamut of careers. To expect the government to counteract this is preposterous. If those cultures find that their young generation is not moving in the proper direction, then by God it's their responsibility to change. We all play by the same rules, the same laws, and as such are masters of our fate.

Then you proceed to defend your reasons for defending the status quo culture (the real problem at hand), by using the "blacks in sports" case-study and pathetically attempting to suggest it is a microcosm of the entire American society in the context of minorities and work access. How about you look in the mirror and ascertain whether or not you're really impartial to non-whites having access to commonly-white jobs and vocational fields. The result of that exercise might surprise you.

You missed the point of the example, and I'm not surprised. Never will you see social outcry over whites, or males, being under-represented in any industry. White males are seen as "more fortunate", as as such have no right to complain about laws which discriminate against them. If you're not white, or male, your complaints will fall on receptive ears since, right or not, you are seen as "disadvantaged", and requiring special attention. It should have been obvious that the aim of the example was to show how receptive American society is to anything which criticizes discrepancies white males "enjoy" and how un-receptive society is to complaints over discrepancies "enjoyed" by all others. Let me be clear. I have no problem with blacks being predominant on basketball teams, or asians predominant in graduate school. Different cultures, different pursuits, same rules, such is life, end of story.

FastCargo hit it right in the head, and definitively got the core of my "thesis", when he raised the question of whether or not we are inclined, or even able, to re-shape our social sub-structure to allow others different than us, in physical appearance and cultural context, to compete against us for positions and aspirations we hold dear. I agree we are far from that point, a lot of re-socializing that needs to take place, even as we enter 2006, but a social dynamic that at the very least needs to be recognized, and not rationalized and dismissed like our friend Archie over here.

Your profound "thesis" makes so many assumptions, I don't know where to begin. I don't know about you guys, but I have no problem competing or working with people, whatever their color. Sounds like a personal problem.

.. and Archie? Is that really the best you could do?