"With you"

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I know the type. The captain that points out of this small sh!t and the polite FO's give a nice chuckle and then look out their window for the rest for the flight thinking "Where can I access that no-fly with list?"

Who cares?

Exactly. Who ********************in' cares!! Our job is easy, just chill out and quit bitching!

 

[AV80R]

If you studied the Tenerife accident, you would know that the F/O made up his own phrase, "we are at takeoff" which is vague and meaningless...May God have mercy on your passengers.

Wow!

JustaNumber – I have studied the Tenerife accident.

Where exactly is that "we are at takeoff" phrase you attribute to the FO?

Below is the transcript of the combined ATC and Flight Data recorder communications.

Full transcript here:

ATC communications transcripts

Also, check out the interview with Robert Bragg, the surviving Pan Am first officer (link is at the bottom)

Jacob – KLM Captain
Klaas – KLM First Officer
Willem – KLM Flight Engineer
Victor – Pan Am Captain
Robert – Pan Am First Officer
Fernando - ATC

...

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Pan Am 1736, approach. Position please.

ROBERT BRAGG: 1736, just checking that.

VICTOR GRUBBS: Yeah, that's the 45.

NARRATOR: The tower asks the Pan Am plane to report its position, and it's clear from the transcript that the crew still cannot find the turnoff.

VICTOR GRUBBS: It goes ahead. I think it will take us to the taxiway.

ROBERT BRAGG: Maybe he counts these as three.

VICTOR GRUBBS: Oh, I like this.

NARRATOR: The visibility goes up and down by the minute. In the KLM, Captain Van Zanten is worried that the airport will close. There's a good chance he's going to be trapped on the ground, forced to spend the night at Los Rodeos—not an enticing prospect.

JOHN NANCE: Here's what Jacob would have been thinking about: "If I have to shut the operation down and give my guys 12 hours of rest, and myself, I'm going to have to buy outbound rooms, rather, for the passengers, that's for one day. That's going to be a huge expense. I'm going to have a 747 sitting on the ramp, where it shouldn't be, and one less bird to fly the next scheduled trips out of Amsterdam. That's going to cost us a little bit of time and money." But the most important thing, and this is true, is the embarrassment of a senior leader and being unable to make happen what he wanted to have happen.

NARRATOR: At the end of the runway, the plane begins its 180-degree turn. It's just after 5 p.m. The two aircraft are now face-to-face a half a mile apart, unable to see each other in the fog.

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: Okay, we have 700 meters visibility here now.

KLAAS MEURS:Wait a minute, we don't have A.T.C. clearance.

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: I know that. Go ahead ask.

KLAAS MEURS:Uh, KLM 4805 is now ready for takeoff. We're waiting for A.T.C. clearance.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: KLM 4805. You're cleared to the Papa Beacon. Climb to and maintain.

NARRATOR: Air traffic control clearance is permission to fly the route once airborne. But it's not permission to take off. That has to be obtained separately.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Las Palmas, V.O.R.

KLAAS MEURS:Roger, sir. We're cleared to the Papa Beacon, flight level 9,0, right turn out 0, 4,0 until intercepting the 3, 2, 5, and we're now...

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: We're going.

VICTOR GRUBBS: No!

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Stand by for takeoff. I will call you.

ROBERT BRAGG: And we're still taxiing down the runway.
Pan Am 1736.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Pan Am 1736, report runway clear.

ROBERT BRAGG: Okay, we'll report runway clear.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Thank you, 1736.

ROBERT BRAGG: He asked us were we off the runway, and I responded back negative, we are still on the runway but we will report clear of the runway. That was the last thing I said, over the radio.
We were only taxiing at three miles an hour. Nothing in my mind would have even given me the thought that he was taking off.

WILLEM SCHREUDER (KLM Flight 4805 Flight Engineer):Is he clear then?

JACOB VAN ZANTEN:What did he say?

WILLEM SCHREUDER: Is it clear, the Pan Am?

JACOB VAN ZANTEN:Oh, yes.

NARRATOR: The die is cast. With every second, the KLM is going faster and faster. At that moment, the Pan Am begins to turn off the runway.

VICTOR GRUBBS: Damn! That son of a bitch is coming straight at us!

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: Damn! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on!

ROBERT BRAGG: Get off!

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: Please!

ROBERT BRAGG: Get off! Get off!
When he hit us, I didn't think he'd done us that much damage, 'cause the airplane very quickly shuddered and gave a "plomp."
...

Robert Bragg Interview transcripts (surviving Pan Am co-pilot)

Undoubtedly, the CRM was very poor on the KLM flight, the reputation Captain Zanten had amongst other KLM pilots certainly did not help.

Not defending the FO here but Mr. KLM was infamous for not tolerating ANY delays whatsoever – KLM even used his pictures when they were advertising KLM’s on-time-performance.

Mr. KLM

Of course, captain Zanten is not here to defend himself and for that I apologize, but neither are the hundreds of passengers who died.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

Justa,

I think that's too big a gap between the "anal" dude and the "drunkfest" dude! You can't seriously be saying that because someone has gotten into a habit of saying "we're with you at 8000" to ATC that he's not a pilot worthy of carrying your family!?! Holy freakin' God man! I've flown with a lotta guys and girls, good and bad, and "with you" is NOT an indicator of skill!

 

[Motown]

Controller's problem then. If the controller doesn't see you doing what he asks he'll certainly get back to you. You'll be protected from any violation because a clearance is not really completed till acknowledged and if your response isn't on the tape, no violation for you.

I don't think this is true. In the late '90s the FAA issued a interpretive ruling that held a pilot responsible for adhering to a clearance regardless of what (or if) they read back. The FAA has violated GA and airline crews, even if they read back a clearance and even if the controller doesn't correct the pilots' mistaken readback.

 

[belchfire]

So you are coming up on bumfrack,WY. "Bumfrack, Golddigger 123 is with you 230 decending 14,000"

Can you imagine the horror the poor controller experiences when someone suddenly pops up on his scope?

(As he drops his doughnut and coffee)

Geeze, the stress!

This is a stupid thread born of anal retentive individuals.

 

[Booker]

You can't seriously be saying that because someone has gotten into a habit of saying "we're with you at 8000" to ATC that he's not a pilot worthy of carrying your family!?!

The next time I'm flying with someone who says "with you," I'm going to re-create the following scene:

You're everyone's problem. That's because every time you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.

It's going to be awesome!

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

The next time I'm flying with someone who says "with you," I'm going to re-create the following scene:

You're everyone's problem. That's because every time you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.

It's going to be awesome!

Right on Booker! (Or should it be, "I'm with you on that?) You can be my wingman anytime!!

 

[samballs]

Comair has a bunch of these guys, they think you actually care how smart they think they are. Most will complain till there blue in the face (for most this is soon). I always ask why are you still at Comair when the majors went through 2 hiring booms since you have been here, I think they usually get my point? If not I turn the Flt ATTs against him and make the trip miserable for the capt. especially the one that wears glasses and hates women his name rymes with foble

 

[samballs]

Wow!

JustaNumber – I have studied the Tenerife accident.

Where exactly is that "we are at takeoff" phrase you attribute to the FO?

Below is the transcript of the combined ATC and Flight Data recorder communications.

Full transcript here:

ATC communications transcripts

Also, check out the interview with Robert Bragg, the surviving Pan Am first officer (link is at the bottom)

Jacob – KLM Captain
Klaas – KLM First Officer
Willem – KLM Flight Engineer
Victor – Pan Am Captain
Robert – Pan Am First Officer
Fernando - ATC

...

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Pan Am 1736, approach. Position please.

ROBERT BRAGG: 1736, just checking that.

VICTOR GRUBBS: Yeah, that's the 45.

NARRATOR: The tower asks the Pan Am plane to report its position, and it's clear from the transcript that the crew still cannot find the turnoff.

VICTOR GRUBBS: It goes ahead. I think it will take us to the taxiway.

ROBERT BRAGG: Maybe he counts these as three.

VICTOR GRUBBS: Oh, I like this.

NARRATOR: The visibility goes up and down by the minute. In the KLM, Captain Van Zanten is worried that the airport will close. There's a good chance he's going to be trapped on the ground, forced to spend the night at Los Rodeos—not an enticing prospect.

JOHN NANCE: Here's what Jacob would have been thinking about: "If I have to shut the operation down and give my guys 12 hours of rest, and myself, I'm going to have to buy outbound rooms, rather, for the passengers, that's for one day. That's going to be a huge expense. I'm going to have a 747 sitting on the ramp, where it shouldn't be, and one less bird to fly the next scheduled trips out of Amsterdam. That's going to cost us a little bit of time and money." But the most important thing, and this is true, is the embarrassment of a senior leader and being unable to make happen what he wanted to have happen.

NARRATOR: At the end of the runway, the plane begins its 180-degree turn. It's just after 5 p.m. The two aircraft are now face-to-face a half a mile apart, unable to see each other in the fog.

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: Okay, we have 700 meters visibility here now.

KLAAS MEURS:Wait a minute, we don't have A.T.C. clearance.

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: I know that. Go ahead ask.

KLAAS MEURS:Uh, KLM 4805 is now ready for takeoff. We're waiting for A.T.C. clearance.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: KLM 4805. You're cleared to the Papa Beacon. Climb to and maintain.

NARRATOR: Air traffic control clearance is permission to fly the route once airborne. But it's not permission to take off. That has to be obtained separately.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Las Palmas, V.O.R.

KLAAS MEURS:Roger, sir. We're cleared to the Papa Beacon, flight level 9,0, right turn out 0, 4,0 until intercepting the 3, 2, 5, and we're now...

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: We're going.

VICTOR GRUBBS: No!

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Stand by for takeoff. I will call you.

ROBERT BRAGG: And we're still taxiing down the runway.
Pan Am 1736.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Pan Am 1736, report runway clear.

ROBERT BRAGG: Okay, we'll report runway clear.

FERNANDO AZCUNAGA: Thank you, 1736.

ROBERT BRAGG: He asked us were we off the runway, and I responded back negative, we are still on the runway but we will report clear of the runway. That was the last thing I said, over the radio.
We were only taxiing at three miles an hour. Nothing in my mind would have even given me the thought that he was taking off.

WILLEM SCHREUDER (KLM Flight 4805 Flight Engineer):Is he clear then?

JACOB VAN ZANTEN:What did he say?

WILLEM SCHREUDER: Is it clear, the Pan Am?

JACOB VAN ZANTEN:Oh, yes.

NARRATOR: The die is cast. With every second, the KLM is going faster and faster. At that moment, the Pan Am begins to turn off the runway.

VICTOR GRUBBS: Damn! That son of a bitch is coming straight at us!

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: Damn! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on!

ROBERT BRAGG: Get off!

JACOB VAN ZANTEN: Please!

ROBERT BRAGG: Get off! Get off!
When he hit us, I didn't think he'd done us that much damage, 'cause the airplane very quickly shuddered and gave a "plomp."
...

Robert Bragg Interview transcripts (surviving Pan Am co-pilot)

Undoubtedly, the CRM was very poor on the KLM flight, the reputation Captain Zanten had amongst other KLM pilots certainly did not help.

Not defending the FO here but Mr. KLM was infamous for not tolerating ANY delays whatsoever – KLM even used his pictures when they were advertising KLM’s on-time-performance.

Mr. KLM

Of course, captain Zanten is not here to defend himself and for that I apologize, but neither are the hundreds of passengers who died.

Throughout this program they imply this was bound to happen to this capt, and that he made his own rules..

 

[AV80R]

Throughout this program they imply this was bound to happen to this capt, and that he made his own rules..

That's my impression too...

 

[Ben Johnson]

I thought Extraneous useless radio phrases are defined as Extraneous useless radio phrases. And not poor crm, not listening, and not following directions. Is it just me or how did adding have a nice day get lopped into an accident.

And yes I have laugh at the Captain not with them, if done correctly they never know the difference.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Actually I never directly critique my F/O and how he talks on the radio. Rather, when someone else says "with you" I simply ask him, with a chuckle, if he ever thought how redundant and totally useless and stupid the phrase is. Usually they say something like - they never thought about it, but now that that you mention it, it IS stupid.

Agreed. But not just stupid-unpatriotic as well! These A$$holes need to be dragged out into the street and made an example of! Where do they get off??? Who do they think they are? The audacity!!!

***Mach 80, you're full of it and you know it. I'm sure you have been b!tchslapped on more than one occasion by FO's after you bring up your useless rant.

 

[airmack]

GUYS...in all seriousness. I must admit, when controller reports traffic...I say, in my best unprofessional voice..."LET ME CHECK MY FISH FINDER" get-r-done

 

[McNugget]

GUYS...in all seriousness. I must admit, when controller reports traffic...I say, in my best unprofessional voice..."LET ME CHECK MY FISH FINDER" get-r-done

I'm with you!

 

[Hamburger]

What blows me away, though, is your slack-ass attitude of mediocrity. You have no business ever being a captain, and even no business in the business end of an airliner. In fact, not only are you a slacker, you are a dishonest, lying slacker. I'm sure you never mentioned your true beliefs to the interviewer who hired you. If you're so proud of yourself and think you're so right, try saying what you told me at your next interview. Good luck with that. May God have mercy on your passengers.

Ever consider how your attitude affects your CRM? It is your job to keep your crew engaged and working as a team. Your God-Captain, hold your crewmate in vile contempt approach to Leadership working out for you? Do you not consider that part of being a professional pilot?