With RTS out, what's in store for us?

[RNObased]

According to Reuters World Press:

THE WORLD'S TEN LARGEST ARMIES

China - 1,700,000
India - 1,200,000
North Korea - 900,000
South Korea - 560,000
Pakistan - 520,000
United States - 475,000
Iraq - 360,000
Myanmar - 325,000
Russia - 320,000
NetJets VP's - 319,999 (not an actual Army, but worthy of noting)
Iran - 320,000

LMAO... Oh man that is funny.

 

[ghostrider64]

Well rumor is that two VPs got the AXE today... Maybe Sokol isn't our enemy afterall?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Well rumor is that two VPs got the AXE today... Maybe Sokol isn't our enemy afterall?

Highly doubtful.

 

[RNObased]

Well rumor is that two VPs got the AXE today... Maybe Sokol isn't our enemy afterall?

It isn't rumor and is probably a good thing. You spend money like drunken sailors on shore leave when the company is bleeding money and what do you expect to happen?? A medal.

I would say Sokol is a good thing.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

I would say Sokol is a good thing.

Something that only those with a comfortable seniority number can say. However, I agree that for the business as a whole he will end up being a good thing for the reorganization of the company and elimination of waste.

For those of us at the very bottom of the seniority list though, this is most certainly not a good thing. The reality that we face doesn't afford us the ability to see the silver lining in any of this. Unless there is a miracle I think it's a foregone conclusion that AT LEAST the bottom 200-300 are gone.

Having said that, is he really a "good thing for the company" if it forces ANY of your NJA brothers and sisters to end up on the unemployment line and possibly lose their houses, credit, and everything that they have worked so hard for? I don't think so.

 

[RNObased]

Something that only those with a comfortable seniority number can say. However, I agree that for the business as a whole he will end up being a good thing for the reorganization of the company and elimination of waste.

For those of us at the very bottom of the seniority list though, this is most certainly not a good thing. The reality that we face doesn't afford us the ability to see the silver lining in any of this. Unless there is a miracle I think it's a foregone conclusion that AT LEAST the bottom 200-300 are gone.

Having said that, is he really a "good thing for the company" if it forces ANY of your NJA brothers and sisters to end up on the unemployment line and possibly lose their houses, credit, and everything that they have worked so hard for? I don't think so.

So what do you want to happen?? You want everything to go on as it has been with nothing changing?? You want to give concessions, those don't work. Just sitting there saying this is bad, doesn't cut it.

Yes, it going to hurt, but IF there are fuloughs at least there will be a company to come back to in time. Doing nothing there would be nothing FOR everyone.

Look something had to happen and it is finally. The pilots are the last thing on this guys list. Just the amount of salary that was cut yesterday is probably around 5 or 6 pilots worth.

I'm saying it is a good thing because there will be a company at the end of this. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

[HazMat]

Plan for the worst and hope for the best if you are not high on the seniority list. They seem to be the unrepresented group on FI. It really is easy to say give no concessions etc, unless you are the one who is going to be put out on the street. There is no right answer but everything should be considered before a person loses thier job for no fault of thier own. Just my two cents. NetJets is in a world of hurt right now and you have to worry whether the company will survive after cash losses of 250 million in 6 months. It may just be me but I am terrified for the industry. An iconic CEO is not shown the door unless there is real trouble.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

So what do you want to happen?? You want everything to go on as it has been with nothing changing?? You want to give concessions, those don't work. Just sitting there saying this is bad, doesn't cut it.

Yes, it going to hurt, but IF there are fuloughs at least there will be a company to come back to in time. Doing nothing there would be nothing FOR everyone.

Look something had to happen and it is finally. The pilots are the last thing on this guys list. Just the amount of salary that was cut yesterday is probably around 5 or 6 pilots worth.

I'm saying it is a good thing because there will be a company at the end of this. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

From a "business as a whole" standpoint it is a good thing. The company must survive, and "that's just business". Unfortunately, for the individuals whose lives are going to be most directly affected by this, that isn't much comfort in the short term.

Also, where in my post did I ever mention concessions? I didn't. For the record, I have never and would never advocate or vote for concessions. If I have to lose my job for now, so be it, but I want it to be one worth coming back to. If it makes you feel any better, that sentiment ecoes throughout 99.9% of the junior pilots that I've talked to.

Haven't we already given though? To the tune of 610 pilot's worth? What I want to happen is for the new team to come in, eliminate the waste at the top and consolidate duplicate operations before considering anything further with the pilot group. That makes good business sense to me in light of the goals that we as a group have already achieved through our mutual sacrifices.

Once again, it is easy for you to say things like, "It is going to hurt", because it isn't really going to hurt you. Just sayin'. Notice how quickly concessions come to your mind when these issues are brought up, even though I didn't even mention them? That's probably because like most Americans (and like me before all this furlough talk started) you are living to the extent of your means and the thought terrifies you. I get it. I'm just saying that that really doesn't compare to what the potential furloughees face and I would ask you to have a little bit of respect for that.

In the end, we really don't have to disagree about much other than semantics and maybe how these things are viewed from one perspective to another. That is normal given your position and mine. We really do agree on the bottom line though and that is that the company as a whole must survive, and when viewed in that light the thought of a few being sacrificed to save the many is justifiable. It sucks, but it may become necessary.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Something that only those with a comfortable seniority number can say. However, I agree that for the business as a whole he will end up being a good thing for the reorganization of the company and elimination of waste.

For those of us at the very bottom of the seniority list though, this is most certainly not a good thing. The reality that we face doesn't afford us the ability to see the silver lining in any of this. Unless there is a miracle I think it's a foregone conclusion that AT LEAST the bottom 200-300 are gone.

Having said that, is he really a "good thing for the company" if it forces ANY of your NJA brothers and sisters to end up on the unemployment line and possibly lose their houses, credit, and everything that they have worked so hard for? I don't think so.

As bad as this may sound, those at the "very bottom" of our seniority list shouldn't hav been hired in the first place. Many pilots here saw that writing on the wall long before times got REALLY ********************ty. We over-anticipated our growth and we're now on a situation where we have to go back and correct our wrong-doings. We can point fingers at those who allowed that to happen and say that had it not been for those idiots, none of you would be going through these tough times. Maybe you're right but I look at it as a great thi g for you at the bottom.

Had the company done the "right thing" back in 2008, we wouldn't have hired a single pilot. Had we done the "right thing" back then, none of you would have joined the ranks and none of you would now be holding a spot on one o the most desired seniority list. Wher would you b now had you not been hired here in 2008? Who knows. Reality says that only a few of you would have gone somewhere better than NJA. If you're furloughed from here, you'll always have a job to come back to when things get better. Had we not hired you in 2008, can you say the same for when we start to hire again? Over thepast few years, tens of thousands of VERY qualified pilots have lost their jobs and are now looking for something new. Would you want to compete with those guys today? I highly doubt it.

So the bottom line is this... You shouldn't have been hired here in the first place. It was a mistake that was made all through 2008. Be glad that you go the opportunity to work here for as long as you have and be glad that you'll be one of the first people that the company wil call when they need more help.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

As bad as this may sound, those at the "very bottom" of our seniority list shouldn't hav been hired in the first place. Many pilots here saw that writing on the wall long before times got REALLY ********************ty. We over-anticipated our growth and we're now on a situation where we have to go back and correct our wrong-doings. We can point fingers at those who allowed that to happen and say that had it not been for those idiots, none of you would be going through these tough times. Maybe you're right but I look at it as a great thi g for you at the bottom.

Had the company done the "right thing" back in 2008, we wouldn't have hired a single pilot. Had we done the "right thing" back then, none of you would have joined the ranks and none of you would now be holding a spot on one o the most desired seniority list. Wher would you b now had you not been hired here in 2008? Who knows. Reality says that only a few of you would have gone somewhere better than NJA. If you're furloughed from here, you'll always have a job to come back to when things get better. Had we not hired you in 2008, can you say the same for when we start to hire again? Over thepast few years, tens of thousands of VERY qualified pilots have lost their jobs and are now looking for something new. Would you want to compete with those guys today? I highly doubt it.

So the bottom line is this... You shouldn't have been hired here in the first place. It was a mistake that was made all through 2008. Be glad that you go the opportunity to work here for as long as you have and be glad that you'll be one of the first people that the company wil call when they need more help.

Unfortunately, there was no crystal ball "back then" and the company was facing deliveries of a huge number of airplanes and those positions needed to be filled. I was hired last March, well before any of what was about to come really started. I would say your statements might only apply to those hired after about July-August 08 but even then they are pointless and are not constructive in any way.

I think every one that was hired already understands the value of having a spot on the seniority list at NetJets and it isn't neccesary to educate us on that value. I'm not sure your statement about, "Reality says that only a few of you would have gone somewhere better than NJA" means much when you consider that many left stable jobs at the tops of seniority lists and that some even took pay cuts to come here. Yes, that was a calculated risk but it seemed like a pretty good bet given the long term outlook of NetJets in the early 2008 economy.

Those that were hired didn't have a crystal ball, and neither did management, so to say that we "shouldn't have been hired in the first place" is absolute crap and does nothing constructive for the current situation.

Once again, it sucks, and there is no way to sugar coat it, but you don't have to rub peoples nose in $hit!!!!

 

[RNObased]

What I want to happen is for the new team to come in, eliminate the waste at the top and consolidate duplicate operations before considering anything further with the pilot group. That makes good business sense to me in light of the goals that we as a group have already achieved through our mutual sacrifices.

You and me both. I think we are off to a good start with regards to that.

 

[AvroJockey]

As bad as this may sound, those at the "very bottom" of our seniority list shouldn't hav been hired in the first place. Many pilots here saw that writing on the wall long before times got REALLY ********************ty. We over-anticipated our growth and we're now on a situation where we have to go back and correct our wrong-doings. We can point fingers at those who allowed that to happen and say that had it not been for those idiots, none of you would be going through these tough times. Maybe you're right but I look at it as a great thi g for you at the bottom.

Had the company done the "right thing" back in 2008, we wouldn't have hired a single pilot. Had we done the "right thing" back then, none of you would have joined the ranks and none of you would now be holding a spot on one o the most desired seniority list. Wher would you b now had you not been hired here in 2008? Who knows. Reality says that only a few of you would have gone somewhere better than NJA. If you're furloughed from here, you'll always have a job to come back to when things get better. Had we not hired you in 2008, can you say the same for when we start to hire again? Over thepast few years, tens of thousands of VERY qualified pilots have lost their jobs and are now looking for something new. Would you want to compete with those guys today? I highly doubt it.

So the bottom line is this... You shouldn't have been hired here in the first place. It was a mistake that was made all through 2008. Be glad that you go the opportunity to work here for as long as you have and be glad that you'll be one of the first people that the company wil call when they need more help.

Possibly the most insulting post I've ever seen on this website...and from someone who's supposed to be a brother.

On the contrary, I was told that I was hired because NJA wanted to hire the best employees in the market, and they finally had the contract to attract the cream of the crop instead of the industry's stepchildren. (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of managements speech)

Sure, I may have been caught up with the $$$$, and the promise of "stop filling out your logbook", but I find it extremely offending that you come on here a tell me I shouldn't have been hired in the first place, and I should consider myself lucky I have a seniority number. By your tone I can almost guarantee that I have put more effort in to this job in the last year than you have in your whole career at NJ...you should consider yourself lucky to call me a colleague!

BTW, If I get furloughed I will leave knowing management did everything they could to prevent it, and that I worked my butt off so I could look my family in the eye and say, "I did everything I could to prevent it." However, it appears your only contribution will be a slap in the face.

 

[glasspilot]

I believe he meant that WITH HIND SIGHT you never should have been hired. That would be a true statement. Problem is, with hind sight the jets never would have been ordered and that's the real expense anyway.

 

[fischman]

Possibly the most insulting post I've ever seen on this website...and from someone who's supposed to be a brother.

On the contrary, I was told that I was hired because NJA wanted to hire the best employees in the market, and they finally had the contract to attract the cream of the crop instead of the industry's stepchildren. (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of managements speech)

Sure, I may have been caught up with the $$$$, and the promise of "stop filling out your logbook", but I find it extremely offending that you come on here a tell me I shouldn't have been hired in the first place, and I should consider myself lucky I have a seniority number. By your tone I can almost guarantee that I have put more effort in to this job in the last year than you have in your whole career at NJ...you should consider yourself lucky to call me a colleague!

Avro,

I can't be sure, but I think I was there the day you interviewed (did I even conduct your interview?) and I got to say that NO ONE anticipated a southbound turn like this. If someone did know (which would be a lie), they surely didn't say anything. We are glad you're here, and I'm still hoping you aren't going to need to update your logbook. I was telling applicants the same thing you posted all last year and I meant it! NetJets is still the industry leader, and best company I can imagine flying for.

So keep you chin up, especially on tour, and take good care of our owners. THAT is the best we can do right now.

 

[wacoflyr]

It sounds patronizing, but I wish all of you the best. I don't want any of you to lose your jobs, and I hope to see you in the FBO's sometime soon.

Regards, Wacoflyr

 

[AvroJockey]

Avro,

I can't be sure, but I think I was there the day you interviewed (did I even conduct your interview?) and I got to say that NO ONE anticipated a southbound turn like this. If someone did know (which would be a lie), they surely didn't say anything. We are glad you're here, and I'm still hoping you aren't going to need to update your logbook. I was telling applicants the same thing you posted all last year and I meant it! NetJets is still the industry leader, and best company I can imagine flying for.

So keep you chin up, especially on tour, and take good care of our owners. THAT is the best we can do right now.

I've actually been quite positive during this whole process, and have been working my tail off serving the owners, and my fellow crew.

The comment by G200_Pilot really is what pi$$ed me off! I needed to let him know that the "Class of 2008" has been an asset to NJA not a liability.

Did I even conduct your interview?

Maybe..I don't know. I was the overweight, balding, middle-age man in the blue suit and red tie...If that narrows it down. I interviewed May 28, 2008. I was the guy that flew in Ireland. Were you there?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

I believe he meant that WITH HIND SIGHT you never should have been hired. That would be a true statement. Problem is, with hind sight the jets never would have been ordered and that's the real expense anyway.

Glass, no way to polish that turd of a post. Nice try though.

 

[AvroJockey]

Glass, no way to polish that turd of a post. Nice try though.

On a more serious note...
Did you ever see the episode of Myth Busters where they were actually able to polish a turd?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

On a more serious note...
Did you ever see the episode of Myth Busters where they were actually able to polish a turd?

Ha! No, but I bet even the Myth Busters would find it impossible to polish this one. It ain't possible.

 

[mt2]

On the contrary, I was told that I was hired because NJA wanted to hire the best employees in the market, and they finally had the contract to attract the cream of the crop instead of the industry's stepchildren. (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of managements speech)

Yep, I got that "gist" in CMH too. I hate to see anyone hit the streets b/c I've been there a few times. But damn if I'm not glad that my 12000 + hours of flight time, worldwide jet experience, 100% on the written test, and acing of the sim ride didn't help me get hired in 2008. Cream of the crop...sure, what goes up must come down. Good luck to those who'll likely hit the street soon, I hope it's a short stay.

 

[fischman]

Maybe..I don't know. I was the overweight, balding, middle-age man in the blue suit and red tie...If that narrows it down. I interviewed May 28, 2008. I was the guy that flew in Ireland. Were you there?

Yup. I remember you. :beer:

 

[G200_PILOT]

Avro, you can be pissed all you want. I'm sorry if you're in the group I'm talking about but the fact is that we're overstaffed and whatever has to happen in order to make sure the company stops bleeding money has to happen. It's that simple. Yes, my comments were in hind sight. Nobody knew just how bad things would get but if you look back, you'll see that we were still hiring during the start of the down turn. Someone at that point should hav stopped that from happening. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but I'm done dancing around the reality if the way things are. Sugarcoating hasn't helped any of us.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Avro, you can be pissed all you want. I'm sorry if you're in the group I'm talking about but the fact is that we're overstaffed and whatever has to happen in order to make sure the company stops bleeding money has to happen. It's that simple. Yes, my comments were in hind sight. Nobody knew just how bad things would get but if you look back, you'll see that we were still hiring during the start of the down turn. Someone at that point should hav stopped that from happening. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but I'm done dancing around the reality if the way things are. Sugarcoating hasn't helped any of us.

Talking about anything in hindsight, especially when it comes to kicking your brothers when they are down, is absolutely worthless at this point. Nobody is asking you to sugarcoat a damned thing, but it would be nice if you wouldn't $hit coat it and then rub our noses in it. Nobody is asking you to "dance around reality" either. Those facing the axe stopped doing that long ago. My point is, why was it necessary or constructive in any way to write such a post except to boost your own ego in some sadistic way. I just don't get it.

 

[fischman]

Avro, you can be pissed all you want. I'm sorry if you're in the group I'm talking about but the fact is that we're overstaffed and whatever has to happen in order to make sure the company stops bleeding money has to happen. It's that simple. Yes, my comments were in hind sight. Nobody knew just how bad things would get but if you look back, you'll see that we were still hiring during the start of the down turn. Someone at that point should hav stopped that from happening. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but I'm done dancing around the reality if the way things are. Sugarcoating hasn't helped any of us.

That's not accurate. We stopped interviews in August. Sept 15 was the day Lehman Bros. went Tango Uniform.

 

[flagshipper]

It will be such an honor to be furloughed from Netjets...............furloughed is furloughed. The pay is the same......we can speculate about future earnings after a recall but it does nothing to help the current situation many of us low seniority guys are facing. While I appreciate all the sacrifices made in the VM campaign by those who are senior I am tired of them using it as a weapon to "hurt" the company if scheduling screws them over or to make themselves feel better on the message boards. It is so easy to throw around the F word when you are number 750 on the list but this is serious for those of us at the bottom. Oh and the local truck driving school just went bankrupt and home depot is laying off before I get those suggestions in my pm box again. Oh and I would never vote for concessions and I have never spoken with anyone else who feels that concessions would help.

100 from the bottom (One of the 2008 mistakes.if only they had listened to the Great and Mighty G200Pilot)

 

[harley30344]

It will be such an honor to be furloughed from Netjets...............furloughed is furloughed. The pay is the same......we can speculate about future earnings after a recall but it does nothing to help the current situation many of us low seniority guys are facing. While I appreciate all the sacrifices made in the VM campaign by those who are senior I am tired of them using it as a weapon to "hurt" the company if scheduling screws them over or to make themselves feel better on the message boards. Just curious: How are they doing this? It is so easy to throw around the F word when you are number 750 on the list but this is serious for those of us at the bottom. Oh and the local truck driving school just went bankrupt and home depot is laying off before I get those suggestions in my pm box again. Oh and I would never vote for concessions and I have never spoken with anyone else who feels that concessions would help.

100 from the bottom (One of the 2008 mistakes.if only they had listened to the Great and Mighty G200Pilot)

Not throwing rocks--just asking how this is being used as a weapon?

 

[RNObased]

That's not accurate. We stopped interviews in August. Sept 15 was the day Lehman Bros. went Tango Uniform.

March '08 Bear Steans goes down, still hiring. Summer '08 the stock market is freaking out, the talking heads are talking serious doom and gloom, still hiring. Also sitting on good jets with good crew doing nothing at LAX. I'm busier this summer.

Sept 15 Lehman goes out, Sept 29 stock market goes down 778. New hire class going on.

Next week I'm in Co-recurrent listen to how everything is OK. I'm wondering what is in the air in CMH. BTW, the day I got this mangement brief the market dropped another 300 odd points.

Not coming after you Fischman, but someone was asleep at the switch.

 

[jonjuan]

That's not accurate. We stopped interviews in August. Sept 15 was the day Lehman Bros. went Tango Uniform.

Are you really that naive? The economy and in turn the industry were visibly frothy in late 2007 and early 2008. I said aircraft orders were being deferred and sales were dropping like a rock at this time, and yet, the hiring train went on with everyone claiming no end in sight.

 

[G200_PILOT]

OK guys, here's the deal. I wasn't trying to attack the junior guys with my earlier post nor was I trying to come across as high and mighty. The facts are what they are and they aren't favorable for the junior guys. I'm sorry that it's gone down like that but I didn't create the problem nor am I in a position to fix it. I take great pride in this company and intend to do everything in my power to make sure that it's still here in 20-30 years when I retire. That includes standing behind some hard-to-make decisions that may include furloughs if that's what it comes down to. The reason I'm being so blunt is because I've sat around for months now listening to numerous junior pilots talk about how WE should all be willing to take a hit in order to make sure that nobody loses their job. While others don't have the balls to say it, I'll be happy to go on record as to say F*$@ THAT!

I didn't cause the stock market to crash nor did I make the call as to who got hired when. I'm sure as hell not going to take a hit for someone elses' mistakes. Not a popular public statement but I assure you that there are PLENTY of other "senior" pilots that are sick and tired of listening to this BS.

 

[RP170]

OK guys, here's the deal. I wasn't trying to attack the junior guys with my earlier post nor was I trying to come across as high and mighty. The facts are what they are and they aren't favorable for the junior guys. I'm sorry that it's gone down like that but I didn't create the problem nor am I in a position to fix it. I take great pride in this company and intend to do everything in my power to make sure that it's still here in 20-30 years when I retire. That includes standing behind some hard-to-make decisions that may include furloughs if that's what it comes down to. The reason I'm being so blunt is because I've sat around for months now listening to numerous junior pilots talk about how WE should all be willing to take a hit in order to make sure that nobody loses their job. While others don't have the balls to say it, I'll be happy to go on record as to say F*$@ THAT!

I didn't cause the stock market to crash nor did I make the call as to who got hired when. I'm sure as hell not going to take a hit for someone elses' mistakes. Not a popular public statement but I assure you that there are PLENTY of other "senior" pilots that are sick and tired of listening to this BS.

There is absolutely no "brotherhood" in that post. All I get out of that is I want what's best for "ME, ME, ME!" If you were in the bottom 500 or so here you wouldn't be making selfish posts like that, I guarantee it.

Try finding employment in today's economy if you lose your job. It aint gonna happen. This is the worst economic situation we have seen in our lifetime. God forbid anyone VOLUNTARILY sacrifice some of their income to help out a junior guy from possibly losing their home, credit, marriage, etc.

You're one selfish S.O.B. I can't believe you were actually hired at NJA. Oh wait....when were you hired? You want to play that way? We can play that way. Senior vs. junior style, since that's what you just started with your post! And it is FI afterall......

Standing by for incoming since you always try to get the last word in. 3...2...1.......

P.S. To those who participated in the VM's, my family and I sincerely thank you.