Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[Mud Eagle]

What, exactly, about the original post leads you all to believe that there is some nefarious motive behind it? Do any of you have any business experience with organizing the merger of two major corporations? Any idea of the business law, or tax law, or any other of a thousand other motives that could be driving it?

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Better think this out, Gup....

My vote to extend seperate ops could be bought - for a price.

Gup

.......before you vote (which you may not have the opportunity in this case), I would highly encourage you and the SWA pilots to make sure the AAI pilots get the same pay from day one. It is in your best self-interest to do so. If you allow SWA to operate under two separate certificates for any lenght of time with separate work rules, pay, contract, etc., it would allow the company to expand the AAI operation at a cheaper rate, especially with the international, ETOPS and -700s.

That was one of the only things the APA did right during the TWA "event" was to demand equal pay from day one. It removed the whip-saw tool from the AMR hand. So, be careful how you handle your tool.....or don't put your tool in the company's hand.......or don't be a tool at the company.....hey this is your issue, work it out amongst yourselves! : )

Buena suerte con todo!

 

[texman]

Corporate and 3 airlines. You just don't like what I'm saying because I'm a smartass and it cuts a little too close to home.

I'll withdraw. Really serves no purpose.

Gup

I luv it. Need a sense of humor and a thick skin to work at good old SWA.

 

[texman]

.......before you vote (which you may not have the opportunity in this case), I would highly encourage you and the SWA pilots to make sure the AAI pilots get the same pay from day one. It is in your best self-interest to do so. If you allow SWA to operate under two separate certificates for any lenght of time with separate work rules, pay, contract, etc., it would allow the company to expand the AAI operation at a cheaper rate, especially with the international, ETOPS and -700s.

That was one of the only things the APA did right during the TWA "event" was to demand equal pay from day one. It removed the whip-saw tool from the AMR hand. So, be careful how you handle your tool.....or don't put your tool in the company's hand.......or don't be a tool at the company.....hey this is your issue, work it out amongst yourselves! : )

Buena suerte con todo!

Brother to many former legacy guys at SWA, It wont happen.

 

[seerickyfly]

You obviously dont read the whole link. SWAPA has a side letter keeping growth equal. If Airtran grows so do we. Equally.

 

[GuppyWN]

That was one of the only things the APA did right during the TWA "event" was to demand equal pay from day one. It removed the whip-saw tool from the AMR hand. [/COLOR]

How'd that work out for the TWA guys?

Gup

 

[Max Powers]

How'd that work out for the TWA guys?

Gup

Yes agreed those TWA guys took it in the shorts. Thanks to their sacrifice you can expect relative seniority with the swa-AAI merger. Get ready to swing gear for me Gup.

 

[GuppyWN]

Yes agreed those TWA guys took it in the shorts. Thanks to their sacrifice you can expect relative seniority with the swa-AAI merger. Get ready to swing gear for me Gup.

Ok but you're buying...... and I get the girl flight attendants.

Oh. And I only swing gear with my right hand.

Gup

 

[BlueYonder]

Somehow I doubt your M&A lawyer is telling your union leadership "Don't worry, federal law doesn't apply here. They can accept a staple or they're on the street"

 

[seerickyfly]

Somehow I doubt your M&A lawyer is telling your union leadership "Don't worry, federal law doesn't apply here. They can accept a staple or they're on the street"

Nope. Havent said a word about staple. You did. Just their is many ways this can go.

 

[ATLplt]

This thread should have been originally named: "I'm a Southwest FO, and I'm scared to lose ANY seniority to a bunch of AirTran pukes"

Ahhh...fresh batch of popcorn. Please, continue with your conspiricy theories gentlemen. I'm slightly entertained.

 

[texman]

I've been making popcorn for a month now. lol

 

[slaquer5]

I. Do. Not think this bantering is healthy for either group. The other airline SWA haters are loving it.

 

[luv2fly]

You obviously dont read the whole link. SWAPA has a side letter keeping growth equal. If Airtran grows so do we. Equally.

The side letter does not say anything about equal growth. It allows SWA to grow, but doesn't require AAI to grow. Now if AAI grows, the side letter requires SWA to grow to maintain the fleet ratio discribed in the side letter. All growth is off at AAI after the purchase is complete and GH owns AAI.

 

[Sy-bill]

No one on this thread know all the laws that will pertain to this integration of seniority lists. Seniority issues also exist for other work groups like the Flight Attendants which will have some effect on the pilots and vica versa.

The point that was wise to present is that there is the impression that AT pilots want arbitration which means they already feel that they will benefit more from that than a workable solution with SWA pilots. If that is the case then we can assume that AT pilots will open with relative seniority as their idea of fair which is unreasonable. SWA should then start off the process with a staple to the bottom which is also unreasonable. Then let arbitration meet in the middle where SWA pilots will experience large relative seniority gains. DOH is the only fair integration in this type of merging of senioritys.

To under estimate the power that SWA has over AT with this acquisition is not being prepared to obtain what is best for you and your family. Don't think for a moment that SWA would not challenge any employees contract in court that could last for many years. Don't underestimate that SWA could slowly dismantle AT while growing their airline organically. There are absolutely no laws that keep them from doing just that.

As much as low amount of posts makes some labeled as trolls, once again it is only because the honest message does not agree with what you think or hope for.

The message I am sharing is you better think about this with a clear mind of the potentials, or you could find yourself further falling down the food chain.

SWA has been, and will be, the 800 lb gorilla in this bewildering industry.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Could this Guadeloope Hioldings thing be a ploy to downsize....then just aquire assets ?

Who knows...all sorts of possibilities abound

 

[B727Driver]

According to an article in Bloomberg, Guadalupe Holdings was created specifically for this acquisition (named after the room where meetings were held). GH will then be merged with AirTran, leaving AT as a wholly owned subsidiary of SWA. This raises the following questions: why was GH created? Was GH created to facilitate this acquisition? After all, this looks like it is not a merger. Thoughts?

 

[fuzzy077]

Anyone with some business sense care to give a well thought out, logical response to why it would be beneficial for Southwest to acquire AirTran using a holdings company instead of purchasing it outright?

 

[redflyer65]

If the 717 program is such a money maker (according to AAI), then what would keep Guadaloupe Holdings from selling it off to another buyer? (And the 737 operation for that matter.) Does AAI have seperate operating certificates for both fleets?

If Gary does, in fact, still plans to persue it, that would keep the WN acquiring percentage well below 51%. IF... he ever chooses to by the remaining 737 operation from GH.

This could be a modern twist on the Gordon Gecko-Blue Star Airlines dismemberment. An innovative, shrewd way to elliminate a competitor. Who knows...

Wow. That would be an interesting end-run.

 

[FlyinGuy]

GH is protection for SWA. All assets are moved to the holding company and operated as a subsidiary. Once the transaction is completed to GH, then SWA can start to integrate operations. If anything pops up that becomes a problem for SWA, they will still have the option to sell off AT from GH before AT becomes SWA.

 

[FDJ2]

I found this on AIRLINE BIZ blog. Its pretty interesting.

• The merging companies are AirTran and Guadalupe Holdings Corp., a Nevada corporation and wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest Airlines. Guadalupe will be merged into AirTran, which will then become a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest Airlines.

• After the merger closes, AirTran will be merged into a new limited liability company set up as a Texas company, LLC Sub, which will become a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest.

I think Southwest will control Airtran as a wholly owned subsidiary and will mold them into a Southwest operational model. If the model becomes more profitable, over time, Airtran's 717s will be refleeted with the 737-800 to simplify operations and gain additional cost efficiencies. If the model is profitable, and refleeting is completed, then and only then would the Airtran operation be merged into Southwest.

I'm curious what impact this could have on SLI, or if it's even required for that matter.

When DAL purchased NWA, NWA became a wholly owned subsidiary of DAL until a single operating certificate was achieved.

 

[FDJ2]

I will bet that SWA does not care much about your contract.

I'll bet that SWA does care about the AAI PWA, since they'll have to honor it.

Wonder what the Affiliates and Successors language says on the AAI TA.

 

[tomgoodman]

When DAL purchased NWA, NWA became a wholly owned subsidiary of DAL until a single operating certificate was achieved.

As I recall, the temporary holding company DAL formed for this purpose was called "Newco".

 

[FDJ2]

SWAPA's contract could force the merger. AI's wont. You are being PURCHASED. A labor contract can not force a aquiring company to merge them with another company they own. You could be operated as a wholly owned subsidiary till the cows come home. As long as SWA operates you as Airtran your still Airtran. Unless SWAPA enacts it 24 month maximum fence clause of course.

Congratulations, you know far less than you realize and now we all know it.

 

[roughneck]

I'll bet that SWA does care about the AAI PWA, since they'll have to honor it.

GH will be the responsible party not SWA.

 

[FDJ2]

According to an article in Bloomberg, Guadalupe Holdings was created specifically for this acquisition (named after the room where meetings were held). GH will then be merged with AirTran, leaving AT as a wholly owned subsidiary of SWA. This raises the following questions: why was GH created? Was GH created to facilitate this acquisition? After all, this looks like it is not a merger. Thoughts?

Because SWA's can't operationally merge the two airlines until such time as they have a single operationg certificate. Just my guess.

 

[roughneck]

Because SWA's can't operationally merge the two airlines until such time as they have a single operationg certificate.

It gives SWA options.

 

[PapaWoody]

My favorite thing about FDJ2 is that just because he has been through a merger, he seems to think he knows everything about every merger/acquisition scenario that ever will happen, including this one. That's like saying just because I've been through a thunderstorm, I know everything about every weather phenomena that will ever happen. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Just my two cents.

Fraternally,
PapaW

 

[FDJ2]

GH will be the responsible party not SWA.

Again, depends on the language in the PWA's of both airlines. I'll bet that the language in the AAI TA will be binding on SWA regardless. I'll bet that the AAI negotiators, covered these possibilities in their TA. If I were an AAI pilot it would certainly be a question I would be asking my reps at this time.

 

[Quiet Flight]

No one on this thread know all the laws that will pertain to this integration of seniority lists. Seniority issues also exist for other work groups like the Flight Attendants which will have some effect on the pilots and vica versa.

The point that was wise to present is that there is the impression that AT pilots want arbitration which means they already feel that they will benefit more from that than a workable solution with SWA pilots. If that is the case then we can assume that AT pilots will open with relative seniority as their idea of fair which is unreasonable. SWA should then start off the process with a staple to the bottom which is also unreasonable. Then let arbitration meet in the middle where SWA pilots will experience large relative seniority gains. DOH is the only fair integration in this type of merging of senioritys.

To under estimate the power that SWA has over AT with this acquisition is not being prepared to obtain what is best for you and your family. Don't think for a moment that SWA would not challenge any employees contract in court that could last for many years. Don't underestimate that SWA could slowly dismantle AT while growing their airline organically. There are absolutely no laws that keep them from doing just that.

As much as low amount of posts makes some labeled as trolls, once again it is only because the honest message does not agree with what you think or hope for.

The message I am sharing is you better think about this with a clear mind of the potentials, or you could find yourself further falling down the food chain.

SWA has been, and will be, the 800 lb gorilla in this bewildering industry.

AAAHHHHH!!! All of your logical thinking and sound reasoning make my ears hurt! Make it stop!! I want wild predictions from pilots with zero business experience. Guys who equate flying an airplane with running a company of any size. And armchair lawyers who "saw something on the web". Oh and McCaskill - Bond experts who were able to squeeze all 3 years of law school in since Sept. 27th. And let's not forget the guys who are "certain" they KNOW what each possible arbitrator will come up with and in some cases what any and all federal judges will decree!!! This is no place for rational thought Sy-Bill!!!!