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Will flexjet pilots kill off whats left of the fractinal profession?

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FR8DOG777

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Posts
360
So after a 7 month sabbatical from the nonsense posted on here I am back with one final question. After viewing the antics of RICCI incorporated first hand how many flex pilots actually think there is a bright future laying ahead with the two combined,or separate companies? Unions, love em or hate em, are a necessary evil dealing with this greedy management team. Kudos to them for sustaining the business through hard times. Extra kudos to the pilots for eating a five year ******************** sandwich!
V1 you are an absolute idiot. I can't believe I ever locked horns with an fo, ex rj 200 driver. You don't know ******************** from shinola and have much to learn about the aviation profession.
Pay close attention to what happens to the options 401k program, or lack of one. And more importantly your own.
Merry Christmas..keep it safe out there.
 
The only part of this post worth quoting....
FR8DOG777 said:
Merry Christmas..keep it safe out there.
Click to expand...

Short answer, yes, will continue to do what's best for our group, just like you're group has done for themselves.

Next time try a longer sabbatical, you still seem to have some anger issues.
 
luckydog said:
The only part of this post worth quoting....


Short answer, yes, will continue to do what's best for our group, just like you're group has done for themselves.

Next time try a longer sabbatical, you still seem to have some anger issues.
Click to expand...

Our group - Your group
Potayta - Potahta

It's all the same now, my friend! Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
Bill_Lumbergh said:
Our group - Your group
Potayta - Potahta

It's all the same now, my friend! Wake up and smell the coffee.
Click to expand...

It's almost the same. The irritating thing is that you guys think that we don't see what's happening, that is not the case. Some still have their heads buried in the sand but most are fully aware of the changes going on. Until the integration issues is addressed no one is in any hurry to join the IBT.

Back to the title of the thread... it's ignorant and shows an intolerance for anyone that doesn't see things their way. That's anything but a professional attitude. It's flame bait of the lowest order.
 
Out of Order

luckydog said:
Until the integration issues is addressed no one is in any hurry to join the IBT.
Click to expand...

That's a problem. Considering that the integration and how it's done will not be determined until after a single carrier determination.

And of course, that requires a vote first.
 
jetwash said:
If the vote fails then KR decides seniority, from looking at his dedicated crew staffing plan seniority will not matter.
Click to expand...

For those at Flex hired post 2001, the dedicated crew is a better option than integrating via DOH. If I have a choice between dedicated crew (small paycut) or downgrade to an FO (huge paycut) can you do the math and guess how I will vote?

Flight Options pilots better reach out with a guarantee that the integration will be by percentage of seniority or else we all will be working in groups of 5. The ball is in your court...there's still enough of us to kill representation for us all.
 
Guarantee?

el raton said:
We need a guarantee of percentage of seniority...or the vote fails.
Click to expand...

If the Flexjet pilot group decides to go with union representation, they are guaranteed "fair and equitable" seniority integration. Furthermore, it would be reasonable for representatives from the Flexjet pilot group and the Flight Options pilot group to work together in determining what is "fair and equitable."

On the other hand, if neither pilot group is represented, KR will determine how the groups are integrated. And regardless of what he says or what committees he may permit in determining the integration, KR will ultimately determine the outcome.
 
Sadly you'll be fighting one another for a while, then the light will go off. While integration certainly wasn't perfect at NJA, the NJI folks have received protections that they wouldn't normally have had. Unfortunately some there still hold on to the past, as if it would never have changed, but that's clearly a fantasy belief.

The current management has shown their true colors, and no group is exempt from their cost savings and metrix driven approach. In fact the EMT has been so bold to have published their goals, and told the union to take it or leave it.

The union at NJA has in fact protected both groups extremely well. Despite some on both sides declaring the opposite. But at least we are well on our way to fixing the soup sandwich, unlike other groups who don't understand you're wasting precious time.

You should unionize now, and get the ball rolling. Integration to be negotiated. But waiting on guarantees? That's unrealistic, and in fact impossible. You have to be a represented group to negotiate that. NJI was lucky that NJASAP negotiated with RTS a fence, prior to NJI being an organized group.
 
Fences

el raton said:
For those at Flex hired post 2001, the dedicated crew is a better option than integrating via DOH. If I have a choice between dedicated crew (small paycut) or downgrade to an FO (huge paycut) can you do the math and guess how I will vote?

Flight Options pilots better reach out with a guarantee that the integration will be by percentage of seniority or else we all will be working in groups of 5. The ball is in your court...there's still enough of us to kill representation for us all.
Click to expand...

There would not be any pay reduction with a vote for union representation, but ultimately there would be a merger and seniority integration. There would not be any downgrades. Fences and the Flight Options CBA cover that:

"Seniority integration procedures shall be promptly initiated following announcement of an operational merger affecting the seniority of the pilot groups. The Company or other Successor, as appropriate, shall accept the integrated seniority list. There shall be no system flush or removal of Pilots from their positions as a result of seniority list integration."

Well, some protections for the Flexjet pilot group will be immediately in place as soon as they vote for IBT representation. If they so choose.

And acutally, the "ball in in the Flexjet pilots court." The Flight Options pilots can go a very long time without a vote. Because only the IBT can ask for one. However, the Flexjet pilots will see change after change without representation. The longer it goes without a vote for representation the more that things can change. The Flexjet pilots have the ball and can cause all of these things to happen either sooner, later or never.

Also, not sure why DOH integration is at the forefront. The pilots, through each of their pilot group representative would determine what is "fair and equitable." It can be one method or a combination of methods.
 
Seniority means nothing under KRs merit based system. It won't matter how the groups are intergrated it will be free reign to do whatever they want whenever they want. Just like a simple email that says goodbye 401k match
 
Because there are over 70 captains who were hired 2001 and on. Essentially, 1/3 of our captain group was hired post 2001. For what it is worth.

The Architect said:
Also, not sure why DOH integration is at the forefront. The pilots, through each of their pilot group representative would determine what is "fair and equitable." It can be one method or a combination of methods.
Click to expand...
 
If XO jet or TMC gets added to our list, are you still going to favor percentage, or would you all want date of hire since both started around or after 2005. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Will flight options kill off what's remaining of the fractional industry by accepting the dedicated crew airplanes that the Flexjet pilots decided were not in our best favor? The title of this thread is ridiculous.
 
It's amazing, a dirt bag charter operator abuses it crews so badly they finally do something and vote in the IBT suddenly making them the star of the hour. Meanwhile FJ, who is currently the second in pay and benefits in the fractional industry, is killing the profession? Let's use some common sense before posting

Please just let this thread die.
 
Frac Cap said:
If XO jet or TMC gets added to our list, are you still going to favor percentage, or would you all want date of hire since both started around or after 2005. Be careful what you wish for.
Click to expand...

Would XO be in favor of DOH? I doubt it...please tell me how percentage is unfair?
 
el raton said:
Would XO be in favor of DOH? I doubt it...please tell me how percentage is unfair?
Click to expand...


Well in Riccis world, Riccis idea of percentage placement is different form Joe Q Pilots idea of percentage placement. It was done with a little "Ricci flair" on it after the Raytheon merge.
 
Basically he does it the way he wants and names it whatever he thinks the pilots want to hear. Example: we will call it percentage placement if it makes you guys happy..And then does it his way. Bottom line as important as seniority is not everyone is going to be happy in a merge. There has never been one merge of a seniority list where everyone was happy and never will be. But there are a lot of other important issues that need to be addressed and you want the pilot group making those decisions not management. I personally wish we never had to merge the list but that's not realistic.
 
dime line said:
Well in Riccis world, Riccis idea of percentage placement is different form Joe Q Pilots idea of percentage placement. It was done with a little "Ricci flair" on it after the Raytheon merge.
Click to expand...

That might very well be true, but you didn't answer the question. It seems some would feel entitled to a virtual staple as a result of straight DOH. Good thing your boss lives in a fantasy land and got told to piss off.
 
Last edited:
Your right the title should have read are flex pilots going to let one man ruin what's left of the fractional profession? Think about this. You watch what RICCI does to the hard working men and women at options who have been here since the inception of the fractional industry. He is strangling the life out of these hard working professionals and has kept 95% of the pilot group under 100k a year for a decade and a half, with no retirement. Wait till he points those barrels at you. Could have done without the argument from an fo who thinks flex is the greatest place ever and no longer runs up and down the terminals eating hot dogs and can buy more video games.
Do not dismiss our experience with RICCI so quickly. You have already began the slow game of chip away of your pay and qol at flex. An extra leg a day, a little lower screwing ratio, an increase in duty time, a few vacation days here, threaten of loss of retirement match.
We will not see a reinstatement of the 401k match at options. I do like the angle the union is advocating, by shaming RICCI and bringing public attention to the matter. The fact is RICCI has already rationalized it away as a suave business transaction to be bargained back for in trade for something else; I.E. lower pay. As the majors see large gains in salaries and retirement contributions, the man that owns you now would very much like to see your salaries and retirement plummet.
So now begs the question. Are you telling us it is going to be different with you guys this time around? You are going to keep him at bay without a union? That would be quite impressive
 
Last edited:
X-rated said:
That might very well be true, but you didn't answer the question. It seems some would feel entitled to a virtual staple as a result of straight DOH. Good thing your boss lives in a fantasy land and got told to piss off.
Click to expand...


Your very right, there are those that would want a pure staple of the FLEX sn list. But I think that most of us want a fair integration. I think we are a more mature pilot group, most of us on property have been here for more than 11 years, and even more RTA guys are still here, those pilots were on the receiving end of Riccis idea of an integration.
 
el raton, I assume you were not seriously asking the question if XO or TMC would be in favor of date of hire. Just in case you weren't sure what they would want, I would say every single one of them would want percentage. In that system, a guy that was hired in 2005, could conceivably go to the front of both of our lists and be in front of guys with ten years more seniority then him.

I don't want to open up this can of worms at this point. I just wanted to give food for thought.
 
Frac Cap said:
el raton, I assume you were not seriously asking the question if XO or TMC would be in favor of date of hire. Just in case you weren't sure what they would want, I would say every single one of them would want percentage. In that system, a guy that was hired in 2005, could conceivably go to the front of both of our lists and be in front of guys with ten years more seniority then him.

I don't want to open up this can of worms at this point. I just wanted to give food for thought.
Click to expand...

So should a pilot with 14 years of service at Options stay ahead of a Flex pilot with ten?

Percentage isn't fair but it's at best a 'break even' settlement between the two groups who are forced to live with each other. I was specifically addressing Options and Flex integrating, but if I'm in favor of percentage for us, why would I not be in favor of it with XO?

Unlike options pilots I don't favor a staple job. Doh would be just that except for maybe ~30 pilots at flex. It will affect who gets furloughed, upgraded, downgraded, moved to different fleets...it would screw a larger portion of pilots at flex. Option pilots have to share the pain as well.
 

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