Will flexjet pilots kill off whats left of the fractinal profession?

[jetwash]

Option pilots have to share the pain as well.

We have been living the pain for years

 

[Frac Cap]

I am not going to get pulled into a selfish self-serving debate as to what puts me ahead of my fellow pilot based on which system of integration we use. If you actually looked at the real numbers in regards to at what point flex starts loosing ground from date of hire as to percentage, you wouldn't make a grossly false statement as to only 30 of your guys would benefit from a system based on date of hire.

Putting my cards on the table, I actually would benefit in a percentage system instead of a DOH system. I only wanted to bring to light that if you are short sighted now and only look at what put you in the best position on this merger, you may not like what you are going to get if you set a precedence with percentage and more mergers happen in the future.

I will no longer debate this subject because it will only serve to divide us at this point and time and we need to come together.

 

[slowtation capt]

Unlike options pilots I don't favor a staple job.

If you are hearing from Options pilots for a staple job then you are talking to the few. Everybody wants fair and equitable, the biggest concern is that nobody from either company loses, nobody wants a repeat of the Options/RTA.

 

[el raton]

If you are hearing from Options pilots for a staple job then you are talking to the few. Everybody wants fair and equitable, the biggest concern is that nobody from either company loses, nobody wants a repeat of the Options/RTA.

DOH is basically a staple job.

 

[slowtation capt]

DOH is basically a staple job.

Really, I didn't know that, u r kidding, right?

 

[el raton]

Really, I didn't know that, u r kidding, right?

Nope. Most FO pilots were hired before a majority of Flex pilots. Flex pilots are going to take it in the shorts when we integrate.

 

[doh]

Nope. Most FO pilots were hired before a majority of Flex pilots. Flex pilots are going to take it in the shorts when we integrate.

That was always going to be the case.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

So in the end is it going to be the pilots with the help of the IBT or will it be Uncle that decides the integration? We had pilot "advisory" committees in the past that had absolutely no input. I don't want a repeat. Do you?

 

[slowtation capt]

Really, I didn't know that, u r kidding, right?

Nope. Most FO pilots were hired before a majority of Flex pilots. Flex pilots are going to take it in the shorts when we integrate.

Right over your head, u didn't get my post at all.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Nope. Most FO pilots were hired before a majority of Flex pilots. Flex pilots are going to take it in the shorts when we integrate.

Even though the Flex pilots are not members of the 1108, the negotiating committee is trying to protect them in the fence agreement.

 

[el raton]

Even though the Flex pilots are not members of the 1108, the negotiating committee is trying to protect them in the fence agreement.

i keep hearing about fences, and that's great, but are the fences permanent? How could they be?

If there's furloughs, will they be by DOH regardless of fences? Probably not it screws the Flex pilots.

There will be new aircraft...who will crew them?

Certain fleets are going away...will the fences protect those captains from moving to the options side as first officers?

What about our first officers, will they have to wait till every Options pilot has upgraded before they get their chance?

I keep hearing that "fences are for our protection" but its load of sh!t you're trying to sell us. The fences will expire at some point and time and most of us at flex will find ourselves at the bottom of some sh!tty seniority list bitter about being lied to by Options pilots and KR.


GC, I don't want to sound like an a$$ hole to you but I see us (Flex pilots) taking the brunt of the screwing form the teamsters and KR..so I'm a little pissed.

 

[el raton]

Right over your head, u didn't get my post at all.

Go ******************** yourself!

 

[slowtation capt]

i keep hearing about fences, and that's great, but are the fences permanent? How could they be?

If there's furloughs, will they be by DOH regardless of fences? Probably not it screws the Flex pilots.

There will be new aircraft...who will crew them?

Certain fleets are going away...will the fences protect those captains from moving to the options side as first officers?

What about our first officers, will they have to wait till every Options pilot has upgraded before they get their chance?

I keep hearing that "fences are for our protection" but its load of sh!t you're trying to sell us. The fences will expire at some point and time and most of us at flex will find ourselves at the bottom of some sh!tty seniority list bitter about being lied to by Options pilots and KR.


GC, I don't want to sound like an a$$ hole to you but I see us (Flex pilots) taking the brunt of the screwing form the teamsters and KR..so I'm a little pissed.

You ask these questions as if we have the answers for you. The people that know are not saying anything about it. Did Deanna not talk about it on Yammer before she disappeared to some remote island. These are the people that know, not us here on FI. Just like any negotiation, until it is agreed to among the parties involved and negotiating, only after that do the minions find out the full details.

Ask it on Yammer, call KR, call the union leadership. But seriously any answer on here about what is being negotiated, you are not going to get any worthwhile answer.

Go ******************** yourself!

My my, testy!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

El, All I can tell you is without the union ,you have ZERO input. Do I like the teamsters? Not really, but when it comes down to my future, I stand up for what I believe is right. If you can't stand for a unified pilot group, stand to the side because you will get run over.

 

[FR8DOG777]

It's amazing, a dirt bag charter operator abuses it crews so badly they finally do something and vote in the IBT suddenly making them the star of the hour. Meanwhile FJ, who is currently the second in pay and benefits in the fractional industry, is killing the profession? Let's use some common sense before posting

Please just let this thread die.

Can someone please explain to this person there are only two fractionals left? We are not going to have a meeting of the minds here because you sir with all your experience are the smartest guy on this forum. Big dog, your string of luck ran out September 05,2013. You will ALWAYS be second highest paid fractional pilot. Your pay and benefits will go down, but you can retain that title.

 

[FR8DOG777]

One union
one voice

fair integration

one stand, enough is enough

we are professionals and should be compensated as such

we have one chance at this, quit messing around!

 

[993_Pilot]

i keep hearing about fences, and that's great, but are the fences permanent? How could they be?

If there's furloughs, will they be by DOH regardless of fences? Probably not it screws the Flex pilots.

There will be new aircraft...who will crew them?

Certain fleets are going away...will the fences protect those captains from moving to the options side as first officers?

What about our first officers, will they have to wait till every Options pilot has upgraded before they get their chance?

I keep hearing that "fences are for our protection" but its load of sh!t you're trying to sell us. The fences will expire at some point and time and most of us at flex will find ourselves at the bottom of some sh!tty seniority list bitter about being lied to by Options pilots and KR.


GC, I don't want to sound like an a$$ hole to you but I see us (Flex pilots) taking the brunt of the screwing form the teamsters and KR..so I'm a little pissed.

You ask a bunch of questions that can't be readily answered. The bottom line is that if the Flex pilots want to have fences, or have a say in anything, including seniority integration, then you need to embrace the idea of union representation. If you trust Kenn Ricci and are content to NOT have a say in anything, then continue to fight it. Just be careful what you wish for.

If it helps you to think of it as making a choice between the lesser of two evils, so be it. Just keep in mind that the union is what you make it. The pilots who bitch the most about unions are by and large the ones who don't bother to get involved, and just sit on the sidelines and complain about the results of other peoples efforts.

I am not trying to monger any fear here, but the way I see it, you can embrace the union, roll up your sleeves and get ready to work and to have a voice, or reject the union, buy a big tube of KY, and embrace KR's "Management by Trust" philosophy. It really is your choice.

 

[FR8DOG777]

I honestly think the majority of the senior folks at flex understand he situation hey find themselves in. Some junior, okay,most, do not get it or will ever get it. Protect what is left, stand tall and band together. Look yourself or in the mirror and ask a simple question. Am I here to build and contribute to this profession or tear it down. It don't get any simpler than that.......you decide!

 

[luckydog]

Can someone please explain to this person there are only two fractionals left? We are not going to have a meeting of the minds here because you sir with all your experience are the smartest guy on this forum. Big dog, your string of luck ran out September 05,2013. You will ALWAYS be second highest paid fractional pilot. Your pay and benefits will go down, but you can retain that title.

I'm not going to let your post go over my head because I'm sure you mean the opposite of what you're really saying.

I am not the smartest guy on the forum, Cabbie owns that, but I'm not a moron either. My luck ran out long before 9/05/13 as did everyone else at FJ.

There are still 3 national fractional operators: NJ, FJ, FO. FJ and FO are moving towards becoming a single steaming mess but we're not there yet. Our moto will be "We're number 2".

You are quite correct that our pay and benefits will only be reduced. We are familiar with KRs favorite phrase: In order to bring your compensation in line with the other DAC companies...
It's obvious he's not sending you guys the same memo with cash and 401k matching in the envelope.

If the fence agreement turns out to be some short term, token piece of crap, and the integration plan is DOH or outright staple, almost every FJ pilot will stagnate in their seat or downgrade. The FO crews will move out of their value brand P300 and take the higher paying seat claiming it's their right by seniority. Career expectations will not even be considered.

Personally I don't think any of this matters because most of the owners I fly have stated that if FJ becomes Flight Options, they'll leave. It's also clear that Kenn's management style has already killed the culture at FJ. That culture is why the owners chose FJ of FO in the first place. Without something to differentiate FJ from the NJ, they'll choose the latter. They all give the same reason, "you know it's owned by Warren Buffet". No one ever says they want to be part of DAC because it's owned by Kenn (<---with 2 'n's) Ricci.

Since you and several others have decided to make this a personal thing against me, I'll go back to watching the show as you try to convince the FJ crews that the sh!t sandwich you trying to serve us is really just another crew meal. Good Luck with that.

 

[slowtation capt]

Personally I don't think any of this matters because most of the owners I fly have stated that if FJ becomes Flight Options, they'll leave.

This is why KR is slowing migrating everything towards the FJ branding. Didn't really think Flops could pull off selling 500Billion worth of Gulfstreams.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Since you and several others have decided to make this a personal thing against me, I'll go back to watching the show as you try to convince the FJ crews that the sh!t sandwich you trying to serve us is really just another crew meal. Good Luck with that.

Please don't leave lucky, I didn't mean to make you feel like its a personal attack, this is business and it effects us all. As for the sh!t sandwiches the company tried to pass off as crew meals, They were so bad that the line crew wouldn't eat them.

 

[shanes123]

I gave my dog one and he pissed on it.

 

[993_Pilot]

...as you try to convince the FJ crews that the sh!t sandwich you trying to serve us is really just another crew meal. Good Luck with that.

What you are missing is that the IBT didn't serve you that $h!t sandwich. You can blame that on Bombardier and/or DAC. What we are trying to do is to give you a way to refuse that sandwich, even though you have already started to taste it.

 

[V1 Rotate]

So after a 7 month sabbatical from the nonsense posted on here I am back with one final question. After viewing the antics of RICCI incorporated first hand how many flex pilots actually think there is a bright future laying ahead with the two combined,or separate companies? Unions, love em or hate em, are a necessary evil dealing with this greedy management team. Kudos to them for sustaining the business through hard times. Extra kudos to the pilots for eating a five year ******************** sandwich!
V1 you are an absolute idiot. I can't believe I ever locked horns with an fo, ex rj 200 driver. You don't know ******************** from shinola and have much to learn about the aviation profession.
Pay close attention to what happens to the options 401k program, or lack of one. And more importantly your own.
Merry Christmas..keep it safe out there.

Your right the title should have read are flex pilots going to let one man ruin what's left of the fractional profession? Think about this. You watch what RICCI does to the hard working men and women at options who have been here since the inception of the fractional industry. He is strangling the life out of these hard working professionals and has kept 95% of the pilot group under 100k a year for a decade and a half, with no retirement. Wait till he points those barrels at you. Could have done without the argument from an fo who thinks flex is the greatest place ever and no longer runs up and down the terminals eating hot dogs and can buy more video games.
Do not dismiss our experience with RICCI so quickly. You have already began the slow game of chip away of your pay and qol at flex. An extra leg a day, a little lower screwing ratio, an increase in duty time, a few vacation days here, threaten of loss of retirement match.
We will not see a reinstatement of the 401k match at options. I do like the angle the union is advocating, by shaming RICCI and bringing public attention to the matter. The fact is RICCI has already rationalized it away as a suave business transaction to be bargained back for in trade for something else; I.E. lower pay. As the majors see large gains in salaries and retirement contributions, the man that owns you now would very much like to see your salaries and retirement plummet.
So now begs the question. Are you telling us it is going to be different with you guys this time around? You are going to keep him at bay without a union? That would be quite impressive

Here we go again. I must've really struck a nerve with you for you to disappear for months and come out swinging at me immediately. I see from your posts that the "Spelling and Grammar For Dummies" book that I sent you for Christmas must not have arrived. You probably couldn't have understood it anyway. Let's move on...

So, let me get this straight. Just because I flew an RJ in the past then that immediately disqualifies me from having an opinion and none of my 14 years of experience flying professionally allows me to have one? If I were a retired 747 captain and held the views that I hold would it change your hatred toward me? It is true that I probably ate a hotdog or two when I couldn't even afford to feed the wife and baby at home. You've got me pegged there. Does it make you feel superior to put someone down in that manner? And you're way off on the video game insult, as well. Do you just hate anyone who doesn't see things your way? The one common thread you and I do have is that I don't particularly care for Mr. Ricci's management style, either. That doesn't mean that I have to march in line with the you, does it? And besides all this, I thought we agreed to never speak again, anyway?

I'll leave you with this; even if you're 1,000% correct about the future of our companies, you're one of the most vile, unprofessional, uncouth, uninformed jackasses that I've heard came across. You care nothing about debating the facts. I can't imagine spending two seconds on the road with you if you act this way in person. Good luck to you and your FLOPs brethren and us here at Flex

 

[shanes123]

Personal attacks need to stop between the FJ and FO guys. Theres a lot of frustration on both ends we need to come together for the best of both companies. I personally been talking to a lot of FJ guys and they are a 1st class act. They have the same concerns we all do. We are all PILOTS. Just like Police Officers we need to look out for each other. (and the cops have a union)

 

[V1 Rotate]

Personal attacks need to stop between the FJ and FO guys. Theres a lot of frustration on both ends we need to come together for the best of both companies. I personally been talking to a lot of FJ guys and they are a 1st class act. They have the same concerns we all do. We are all PILOTS. Just like Police Officers we need to look out for each other. (and the cops have a union)

I agree the personal attacks need to stop but sometimes you just have to speak their language. That being said, dinner is on me if we cross paths.

 

[jonjuan]

Anyone know what Shinola is?

 

[doh]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinola Glad to help!

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Good luck to you and your FLOPs brethren and us here at Flex

Got it wrong again.... "Good luck to all of us, my One Sky brethren." is what you should be saying.

The classic old whipsaw is working like a charm, I see.

Our management is whipsawing us against each other right now. When our union goes away after they succeed in breaking us due to this type of mentality, Netjets management starts the whipsaw up between us and them. Then, ultimately, we are all lost in the fractional industry.

Where do we ultimately end up at the end of this game? Right back where charter pilots (which is what we are: overglorified charter pilots) started before we were able to unionize:

Overworked, underpaid, unscheduled, disrespected charter pilots.

Better wake up before it's too late, my One Sky Brother!

 

[V1 Rotate]

Thanks for putting me in my place.