Why would a RJ Capt. leave for CAL, DAL, UAL, UAW, or NW?

[Nightrain_080]

So I was doing some looking around on airlinepilot central, and I just can't believe those FO payscales. What makes it worse is the fact that they have lower guarentees than regionals have. DAL has a 65 hr guarentee, Continental has a 72 hr guarentee, AA has a 64. Then you look at those payrates and you are making less than an RJ captain for a long long time. Since the upgrades seem to look like atleast 10 yrs (except CAL) why is it that everyone is jumping at the majors. The FO pay is AWFUL. At United, a 2nd year FO will make $42,000. a 5th yr FO will make $65,000. In contrast lets say your a 5 year Captain at ExpressJet. You will bring home $75,000 easy. I would say most people at XJT get between 85 and 90 hrs of credit a month. So I guess XJT guys make more than Legacy drivers. That makes SICK. I don't know how ya'll do it. PLEASE tell me that you atleast get more than 65 HOURS a month of credit. Otherwise I guess the LCC's are not that bad of an option. Atleast you get more than 65 hrs of pay. And you can upgrade in 2-3 yrs. Maybe I am missing something here, but how can you be in this industry for as many yrs as it takes to get to a Major, but make less than you did flying your regional jet.

My rant is over.

PS-(I DID NOT PROOF READ THIS SO THERE MAY BE SPELLING ERRORS)

Look again Troll. You need to retake Math 101

 

[xrated]

If you fly BIG airplanes, you get all the Hot Chicks!!! If you fly little bitty airplanes, you get ugly fat chicks, hence, little airplane pilots have very low self esteem!

At least thats my take on the topic.....for what it's worth.

 

[PapaSiera]

Look again Troll. You need to retake Math 101

Oh really? Lets take a closer look then...

United 2nd year pay- $50
$50 X 65 X 12=$39,000

United 5th year pay- $78
$78 X 65 X 12=$60,840

ExpressJet 2nd year pay- $62 if you upgrade which you prob will now.
$62 X 85 X 12= $63,240

ExpressJet 5th year pay- $68
$68 X 85 X 12= $69,360

85 hours is conservative for us. Most people credit between 85-100 hrs a month.

Just for giggles lets look at 12th year pay....

United 12th year pay- $90
$90 X 65 X 12= $70,200

ExpressJet 12th year pay- $82
$82 X 85 X 12= $83,640

All United figures are for 737/A320 FO You may move to other airframs as FO, but I am just keeping it simple. It WILL take you 12 YEARS to upgrade at United.

Now what Nightrain?? Do I still need Math 101?

 

[C-150ETOPS]

AA reserve G is 73 hours.

Most lines have around 76-78. With trip trades or answering the phone, lineholders can get 83 hours pretty easily.

As mentioned, "to each his own" is the answer to your question.

 

[ualdriver]

Oh really? Lets take a closer look then...

United 2nd year pay- $50
$50 X 65 X 12=$39,000

United 5th year pay- $78
$78 X 65 X 12=$60,840

ExpressJet 2nd year pay- $62 if you upgrade which you prob will now.
$62 X 85 X 12= $63,240

ExpressJet 5th year pay- $68
$68 X 85 X 12= $69,360

85 hours is conservative for us. Most people credit between 85-100 hrs a month.

Just for giggles lets look at 12th year pay....

United 12th year pay- $90
$90 X 65 X 12= $70,200

ExpressJet 12th year pay- $82
$82 X 85 X 12= $83,640

All United figures are for 737/A320 FO You may move to other airframs as FO, but I am just keeping it simple. It WILL take you 12 YEARS to upgrade at United.

Now what Nightrain?? Do I still need Math 101?

1. I don't know where you're getting the 12 year upgrade idea at UAL. I don't have the seniority list in front of me, but currently it's much less than that for 737 Capts. I'm a 12 year guy and I'm almost half way up the 737 Capt list at UAL.

2. You're comparing 65 hours of pay at UAL vs. 85 hours at Expressjet. Very few people fly 65 hour schedules at UAL. In fact, our lines are built to the low and mid 90's quite commonly.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Easy answer, you are right. Stay there. It's better.

 

[samballs]

So I was doing some looking around on airlinepilot central, and I just can't believe those FO payscales. What makes it worse is the fact that they have lower guarentees than regionals have. DAL has a 65 hr guarentee, Continental has a 72 hr guarentee, AA has a 64. Then you look at those payrates and you are making less than an RJ captain for a long long time. Since the upgrades seem to look like atleast 10 yrs (except CAL) why is it that everyone is jumping at the majors. The FO pay is AWFUL. At United, a 2nd year FO will make $42,000. a 5th yr FO will make $65,000. In contrast lets say your a 5 year Captain at ExpressJet. You will bring home $75,000 easy. I would say most people at XJT get between 85 and 90 hrs of credit a month. So I guess XJT guys make more than Legacy drivers. That makes SICK. I don't know how ya'll do it. PLEASE tell me that you atleast get more than 65 HOURS a month of credit. Otherwise I guess the LCC's are not that bad of an option. Atleast you get more than 65 hrs of pay. And you can upgrade in 2-3 yrs. Maybe I am missing something here, but how can you be in this industry for as many yrs as it takes to get to a Major, but make less than you did flying your regional jet.

My rant is over.

PS-(I DID NOT PROOF READ THIS SO THERE MAY BE SPELLING ERRORS)

I like lifers that think regionals are good jobs

 

[SoCentralRain]

Stay where you are! Plus, I hear that Embraer seat is really comfy. Enjoy that. You'll be sitting in it for a long time. Preparation H is in the salves/ointments aisle.

SCR

 

[FDJ2]

85 hours is conservative for us. Most people credit between 85-100 hrs a month.

It seems to me, that in order to make a fair comparison you need to consider what the average line value is at CAL, DAL, NWA, AA etc., not just the minimum guarantee.

Do most pilots fly minimum guarantee at your airline? I don't think so and I know they don't at mine either. But if all you're looking for is validation of your career decision to stay at your commuter, consider yourself validated if it makes you happy.

 

[catIIIc]

Can some of the legacy drivers chime in and tell us if you get over 65 hours of credit per month. Are lines only built to 65-70hrs?

Hell no at CAL we are flying 85-90 hours a month, I believe the Airbus and Guppy guys are also at UAL.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Well the top of the regional list is certainly more stable than the bottom of a major carrier. First year pay for the next nwa new hire will be $19500.

 

[jtf]

Do what you think is best for you. If you go to a major you may very well be furloughed since you will be so low on the list. You will also most likely make more money by the end of your career if you have lots of time left and don't lose your medical. If you stay at the regional you may be out of a job if the regional bites the dust. Everything in aviation is a gamble. How is staying at Express Jet not a gamle now- starting their own independent airline operations and their own charter is a gamble that must be made under the current circumstances, but it is not a small gamble. If those ops tank and and the company wants to live they will have to take pay cuts just like all the majors that are being ripped in this thread. I can understand staying put at Eagle more than Express Jet since it is currently wholly owned by who it feeds, but even that isn't much safer. Comair is wholly owned and was a good place in the very recent past and it is now going down. Is any regional really safer than the majors? I think salaries at the majors will go up, but they won't ever be like the glory years we all dreamed about when we started flying airplanes. This is a cyclical business, but the cycle went pretty darn low and with all the LCCs keeping pricing pressure on, I just can't see things getting as good as before. I can't believe that Skybus and Vigin America are going to do anything good to help raise the bar anywhere else during negotiations at the majors once the bankrupcy contracts are up. Analyze your specific situation and then roll the dice since either choice could be wrong.

 

[jtm2222]

I left for a major over a year ago and its the best move i've made.. Flying big equipment vs. RJ is a whole different world. Not having to deal with canceled RJ flights is huge. I think anyone under 40 should jump ship to a major if they have a chance. To me this is a very simple question. Overall you make a sh$t pile more money at a major than a regional. Get onboard and get that senority number.

 

[Thedude]

Regionals are performing all the DC-9, Folker Jet, 737 and most of the 727 routes, as well as a lot of South America.

What commuters are flying to South America??!! Thats news for me.

 

[AutoBus]

I left for a major over a year ago and its the best move i've made.. Flying big equipment vs. RJ is a whole different world. Not having to deal with canceled RJ flights is huge. I think anyone under 40 should jump ship to a major if they have a chance. To me this is a very simple question. Overall you make a sh$t pile more money at a major than a regional. Get onboard and get that senority number.

Good advise! It's easy to get sucked into the this is not so bad, kind of OK paycheck. But over the LONG haul you will be better off at a major, regionals come and go, code share agreements come and go, it's better to be working for the company that actually writes the checks rather than a sub-contractor.

There is really no arguement if you do the math and the research you will come up with the same answers. As an FO I've been working 4 on 3 off, with no weekends and all holidays off since year about year 5, averaging around 100K for the past 3 years.

 

[Non Union]

Trust me, I am having this conversation with myself. I am at XJT, made almost 80K this year and have 3 hard weeks of vacation (which is really 6 the way our contract works). There are also over 2000 pilots at this company jr to me.

I'd bet that the days of making $80k or so with 3 weeks of vacation will soon come to an end for you at ExpressJet as well as the other regional airlines.

It really boils down to simple math; if the companies are not profitable, the pay and benefits will come down. On the other hand, some companies like UPS/FedEx are extremely profitable, so they will continue to pay good salaries and benefits.

Staying at a regional, especially one that has a shaky future to be sure, like ExpressJet, is just idiotic.

 

[AA717driver]

Ok, here's an example: In 1988, Air Wisconsin was the king of the mountain when it came to "feeders", "regionals", "commuters", whatever. The F27 CA's were making $70k (pretty good money for 1988) and the BaE-146 guys who worked the system were making near $100k (not much less than UAL 737 CA's).

None of those guys were going anywhere. It was a great deal.

UAL bought them and look where they are now. Just another commuter airline offering its services up to the lowest...er, I mean the highest bidder.

I've always said my worst day at a major is still better than my best day at a commuter. FWIW. TC

 

[Howard Hughes]

One thing to keep in mind is that the regionals have nearly maxed out their growth unless they can get anything bigger than a 76 seat aircraft and that AINT gonna happen, at least not for the ones feeding the likes of Delta, United, AA, and Continental. NWA has compass which Im not sure about RE seats.

The fact is that regionals were used to hold ground and even add some smaller destinations while the majors restructured. You can bet the guys/gals at most of the legacies, along with pay increases will be jumping all over scope to cut off anymore farming to the little guys as contract negotiatons come up again and most of these legacies are projected to be profitible (cant hide behind a BK judge anymore). If you were at a regional the past 7 years or less you probably moved up faster than you ever will in your career. There will still be some movement for junior guys as many at the middle and even top seniority level jump ship. Dont expect the pay rates to increase by much though and if you had visions of your regional getting airbusses some day you can abandon those thoughts as well. This business is indeed cyclical and has everything to do with timing. Expect to see the Majors trending back upward in pay, work rules and quality of life as their respective companies make money again, on the flip side, expect the regionals to taper off growth and even downsize. Delta in recent months has repeatedly said it is getting a 100 seat aircraft and it will be flown by Delta pilots. You can fully expect that airplane at the new rates to replace some of the RJ flying in certain areas. One last thing, the guy who started this thread is comparing apples to oranges when it comes to pay and hours flown. The RJ guy who likes to say hes making near 100K is usually flying his tail off, picking up trips, more legs, walking through snow and rain to get to his airplane, nowhere to put his bag/flight kit, dealing with pax who like to comment getting on their plane of how small it is each of many legs each day, having a hard time raising the bar because hes always flying with some new kid whos eyes are as big as saucers cause he so excited to fly a CRJ "Heavy" and doesnt want to rock the boat so hurts in contract negotiations, etc. Contrast that with sitting in the right seat of a 757/767 flying less hours to make the same pay (as the major pay rates are the lowest low they have been in many moons they WILL be coming back up....maybe not to the $365/hr levels but to a much higher wage than any RJ captain can ever hope to achieve even selling his soul to the company picking up trips etc. And then there is the possability of international and what they like to call "paid vacation" at the majors but we will save that topic for another day. I think if you are 45 or less you really need to take the hit now and make the move. You will be be kicking yourself in five years for not making that move as the major airline job once again distances itself away from regionals catagorically in every respect and five more years are added to the retirement age.

Just thought of one last thing. If you want days off more quickly at an airline that flys multiple equipment you can always bid the smaller aircraft (ie 737) and build super seniority faster if quality of life is your ultimate goal.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Why would a RJ Capt. leave for CAL, DAL, UAL, or NW?

I like lifers that think regionals are good jobs

Are there any "lifers" at the majors or do they all have their resumes out too?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

all you RJ guys questioning whether you should leave...please stay there.

 

[Flyby1206]

Good advise! It's easy to get sucked into the this is not so bad, kind of OK paycheck. But over the LONG haul you will be better off at a major, regionals come and go, code share agreements come and go, it's better to be working for the company that actually writes the checks rather than a sub-contractor.

Bingoooo! Regional Airlines are the underwear, and the Major is the 3-piece suit. Nobody really sees the underwear, it gets crapped on, and tossed in the garbage after a while. The suit is classy and lasts, people comment on how good it is and looks great.

 

[vance]

Three words!!!

Capacity Purchase Agreement

If you're not at Chataqua or Mesa you may want to quit the Monday morning quarterback act and either deal with your decision to stay an XJT Capt or move on. Nuf said!

 

[AA717driver]

I wanted to be a lifer at a major but they wouldn't let me...TC

 

[TNPILOT]

I think it's about as good as it's ever going to get for the regionals right now. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you're doing the safe thing by staying at a regional. If the legacies continue their slow climb to something that could resemble stability, the regionals will suffer.

 

[Nightrain_080]

Assume you only get 65hrs till age 60????

Oh really? Lets take a closer look then...

United 2nd year pay- $50
$50 X 65 X 12=$39,000

United 5th year pay- $78
$78 X 65 X 12=$60,840

ExpressJet 2nd year pay- $62 if you upgrade which you prob will now.
$62 X 85 X 12= $63,240

ExpressJet 5th year pay- $68
$68 X 85 X 12= $69,360

85 hours is conservative for us. Most people credit between 85-100 hrs a month.

Just for giggles lets look at 12th year pay....

United 12th year pay- $90
$90 X 65 X 12= $70,200

ExpressJet 12th year pay- $82
$82 X 85 X 12= $83,640

All United figures are for 737/A320 FO You may move to other airframs as FO, but I am just keeping it simple. It WILL take you 12 YEARS to upgrade at United.

Now what Nightrain?? Do I still need Math 101?

Now you need to be realistic in your jaded numbers. When you base everything on regular (expressjet) hours 85 vs 65 hours Guarantee (United) and then you assume it will take you 12yrs to upgrade only at United, your arugument becomes rather flawed.

Your thread started with CAL, DAL, UAL and AA. Where are your realistic numbers from say a 5yr FO. Go ahead and compare 85hrs. vs 85hrs. plus Benefits for both and if your still confused then just stay put. Also throw in FEDEX, SWA, UPS, and AirTran. They are all hiring.

You sure do need to re-take Algebra as well. You can justify staying at Express Junk all you want, more powere to you.

 

[nonstop]

Trust me, I am having this conversation with myself. I am at XJT, made almost 80K this year and have 3 hard weeks of vacation (which is really 6 the way our contract works). There are also over 2000 pilots at this company jr to me. If I went to CAL, it would take FOUR YEARS (on the 73) to get to my current pay and with no medical insurance for 6 months.

It is crazy when you think about it. How far have we fallen as a group!? All that being said, I started this career with a goal in mind and it was not to fly the F-ing E-145 my whole life so I will continue to look for new opportunites. I will however not leave for certain low cost cariers and other 2nd tier freight types.

Who knows??

You forgot to mention the 9% 401k match... not too shabby. Plus the possibility, if it expands and if it interests you, of flying as a charter CA making an $18/hour override and 90 hour guarantee. Think our most junior charter CA makes a minimum of 100k (not counting benefits, 401k, overtime, per diem etc).

Ride that 100k salary out for 20-30 more years, or take a chance at a major. Not nearly the easy decision it used to be. Was talking to a NWA 320 FO the other day, she had around 10 years seniority and was making in the 90's. She said "Yeah I feel sorry for you guys (regional pilots), there used to at least be a light at the end of the tunnel when I was at the regionals."

 

[CAVOK69]

edit...

 

[wings421]

Can anyone at United confirm the current payscale?

Airline Pilot Central shows lower than the contract does in the download section.

Looks like a 737 FO year 5 would be $90.16 starting May 1, 2007 instead of the $78 that APC shows, is that correct?

 

[stillflyn]

Oh really? Lets take a closer look then...

United 2nd year pay- $50
$50 X 65 X 12=$39,000

United 5th year pay- $78
$78 X 65 X 12=$60,840

ExpressJet 2nd year pay- $62 if you upgrade which you prob will now.
$62 X 85 X 12= $63,240

ExpressJet 5th year pay- $68
$68 X 85 X 12= $69,360

85 hours is conservative for us. Most people credit between 85-100 hrs a month.

Just for giggles lets look at 12th year pay....

United 12th year pay- $90
$90 X 65 X 12= $70,200

ExpressJet 12th year pay- $82
$82 X 85 X 12= $83,640

All United figures are for 737/A320 FO You may move to other airframs as FO, but I am just keeping it simple. It WILL take you 12 YEARS to upgrade at United.

Now what Nightrain?? Do I still need Math 101?

Jackass.......

65 hours is the gar. for line holders. 70 hours is the gar. for reserves. Most people wish their line was built to 65 hours but they aren't. The average line is probably 87-89 hours. On reserve if you pickup trips you can fly as much as you want. If your going to quote credit time than take a UAL 12th year FO at 85 hours of credit just like you did for the 12th year express jet CA. We also have a 16% B-C fund. The math is a little different.

Sometime ago, while you were in Jr. high, we had a contract that would make you change your tune. By the looks of your profile you weren't around for the bad times. The industry is on the upswing. By the time you have the flight time to apply to a company like UAL we will probably have a new contract and you would kill to come over here and swing the gear for me! Until then enjoy where you are.

Stillflyn

 

[stillflyn]

Can anyone at United confirm the current payscale?

Airline Pilot Central shows lower than the contract does in the download section.

Looks like a 737 FO year 5 would be $90.16 starting May 1, 2007 instead of the $78 that APC shows, is that correct?

That's because the last pay cut. I think it was 14%. We got some of that back on 5/01/06 and we get another 3% of it back on 5/01/07. 5th year pay on the 737/A320 should be 82.23 hr next month.