Why we have OBAP........

[Juvat]

...I’m sure that some of you older pilots, pilots who have older parents, fell into the category of discriminating against blacks and supported segregation.

Dude, WTF is your problem? Your inflammatory remarks have absolutely no place here. Go find the "We were oppressed by The Man" forum and stop it with your divisive rubbish.

I'll bet you wouldn't like it if somebody here said "I'm sure that some of your older parents used to pick cotton." It's the same kind of ridiculous statement as yours, just with the tables turned.

By the way, I always discriminate against dumb$hits, whether they're black, white, or green. You just made my list.

 

[FN FAL]

By the way, I always discriminate against dumb$hits, whether they're black, white, or green. You just made my list.

even most liberal dumb$hits know there aints no green people...dumb$hit.

 

[WhiteCloud]

WhiteCloud, this statement is a bit of a red herring. You whiplash us with two situations on opposite ends of the spectrum in an attempt to draw attention away from the centrial issue. The central issue is: is it acceptable in your book for OBAP to promote the issues and concerns of certain racial groups over others? If it is acceptable, logically defend your viewpoint head-on without resorting to hyperbole, emotion, or other curveballs.

I don't think OBAP helps their membership "over others"....they simply help their membership. What would you have the black community do? Sit idly by and not do anything to help themselves get ahead? Have them accept handouts (from whites)? OBAP helps all sorts of people. Mostly inner-city, disadvantaged kids. I'm sure they don't exclude inner-city white kids from their activities. Lots of things have changed for the better over the past few decades, in part due to groups like OBAP. Like I mentioned in my post....they will probably come up with a different name down the road to reflect more diversity in the future. That's really up to them. WC

 

[SirFlyALot]

I don't think OBAP helps their membership "over others"....they simply help their membership. What would you have the black community do? Sit idly by and not do anything to help themselves get ahead? Have them accept handouts (from whites)? OBAP helps all sorts of people. Mostly inner-city, disadvantaged kids. I'm sure they don't exclude inner-city white kids from their activities.

If OBAP does not help their membership (which by definition exists for black airline pilots) over others, then there should not be a problem in changing OBAP's name to something race-neutral and editing their stated goals in the same way. Again, I refer you to what OBAP itself has published on its website: "The goals of OBAP are...to increase the number of black pilots hired by airlines; and to assist the black airline pilot with special needs and concerns." Is that statement consistent with an organization who you don't think helps their black members over others? And there's more: "Through networking, many black pilots' applications have been helped through the processing maze that may have otherwise been doomed to obscurity." Is that statement consistent with an organization who you don't think helps their black members over others?

You ask what would I have the black community do? I would have them do as we all should do: work hard, treat those around them fairly, obey the golden rule, etc. Why should you ask me if I think the black community should be charged with doing things differently than the rest of us? Do you think they should? Are we not all in this together? Why would black people have to accept any kind of handouts from whites? Black people are just as capable as anyone else of making their own way: they're just as smart, intelligent, warm, funny, etc, etc, etc as white, yellow, red, or brown people.

Finally, if it's true OBAP doesn't exclude inner-city white people, that's fantastic! If it's true, why all of the talk about helping black people on their website? If it's true, why make the distinction?

 

[ImRickJames]

This might be true in some cases. I don't know. However, when you join the debate especially to cast one side or the other in a disparaging light, please be specific and cite examples to support your claim. Why do you support, respect, and admire what OBAP does? Be detailed. Be logical. Use critical thinking. Otherwise, you're just another reed of grass blowing in the wind swayed by what sounds good and feels good to you at the moment.

So, it's not okay in your book to rail against the idea that one person might have an advantage over another because of the color of their skin? A person that stands on a principle like that is "insecure, resentful" and even "racist"...unless he or she favors a race that in your mind is acceptable? How about not favoring any race? To you, people who want to completely eliminate race as a consideration in our society are mean, ignorant, and selfish? Then, I guess you would throw people like Frederick Douglass, Rosa Parks, and Martin Luther King into that same boat? That is a sad, sad thing.

Cardenal was just making his viewpoint known and he is entitled to it. Don't criticize him just because his view is different than yours. I think he is of sound judgement and does not get caught up in this discussion because he sees it for what it is, futile. You are aggressive, almost angered in your pursuit of shoving your viewpoint into everyone's throat. Everyone knows your view, we can live with it. Just let it go, man, just let it go.

 

[hbrow15]

Sir fly alot

you asked a few questions and made a few statements in different post that I will try to respond to without so much cut and paste.

I dont know what OBAP offical or unoffical position is on Affirmative action or wheter there is a position at all just as I dont know what ALPA's offical position is on affirmative action. But I will say OBAP has never endorsed any candidate and no one has have spoken politics with any dealings I have had, however based on the candidates ALPA seems to back you would think that they either A) support it or B) dont think of it as much of a problem as other issues since they always endorse candidates that a for affirmative action. My personal view if there were to be an OWAP as I posted in another post title WALPA or "white mans alpa" you would not have a problem with me. Stand by because this will blow you away and you probably wont even believe me but talk to people who know me and it would not surprise them, I dont have a problem with the ku klux klan. They have every right to feel the way they do and gather and meet and voice thier opinion and as a former Marine I will take up arms to make sure they can keep doing it. To be completely honest I actually respect the fact that they will at least let me know where I stand with them, granted they cant have any of my Bud Light. These type of people are not a threat to me because as I said before in most arenas I can hold my own. As far as advocating for friends you say that's cool and I agree, but how do people become your friends, common intrest, work, same social circles, so my question is how many black aviators do you know? poll your your friends and find out how many black pilots they know, I would go out on a limb and say not many if any at all, so how would a black pilot go about getting someone to advocate for them and get the same advantage you and your friends have, if not us who?. You seem to assume that we feel like as long as a guy is black he will get someone to advocate for them, completely untrue I have friend that at this point I would not reccomend for a job with my or any company because I question his attitude which in turn makes me question his judgement even though he actually is a pretty good stick and he is black. I have a friend that I have flown many hours with that I am just dieing to write a letter of reccomendation for, great guy really he is to smart to be a pilot he has a masters degree in finance and he is a white guy(I need to call him tonight thanks for reminding me). I would not be offended at all if affirmative action was done away with and I'm sure there are some in my community that would I wish they wouldn't because even though I'm not niave enough to think we live in a color blind world and for the record that did not start with us, I know we are just as capable as our white couterparts and almost all to a man work very hard because we all feel like we have to be better than the next guy. It is true that no white inner city kid that wants to participate is left behind, the distinction is made because that is the majority of the inner city is black. Although most of these kids enjoy riding in the airplane many dont have a burning desire to be airline pilots even if they think they do they are still young and that may change over time. The big thing here is a duty to community, most of these kids come from broken homes and the only male influence in there life is is the thugs on the cornor. Many are likely to end up dead or in prision for a violent crime before they turn 25. So many professional groups that make the distinction of being black this or that try to get in and break the cycle and show them that there is an alternative and the reason the black distinction is important is because you as a white guy in thier eyes that is the norm for you to be succuessful but to see a group of black guys achieve what we have is not. Generally when they see black men it's not positive so it is important to show them that even if they are not great athlete's or rappers that they can still live a good life and be productive citizens. The Black this or that group is important because we look like they look, we went to the same schools grew up in the same neighborhoods, so yes there is a special emphasis on the on the black aspect and when we get some white partcipants even better because we can show them that it is possible to work together everyone white is not out to hurt them. There have been times when I have gone out been in uniform and none of these kids have ever seen a black pilot, hell even thier mothers think I'm the only one. Be thankful that the majority of your communities dont deal with these types of issues I know some do but not on the scales of ours. I'm glad we have a group of men that would take on such a challenge when sometimes they dissapoint you but even then it's not completely the kids fault, because we at times dont ask enough of the men in our communities, I was fortunate that I grew up with my father around many dont have that luxury. So as I said before if not us who? who will take on this role? we know it wont be you or others that share your opinion of the name of the group that think they dont need special attention if that is racist or divisive so be it. Obap has been around for almost 30 years and we still have less than or somewhere aound 1% of the total pro pilot population, so obviously all these kids are not becoming pilots but if we can just get them thinking there is another way and get him to college or doing something productive then we made a difference.... so if not us who? I'm open to suggestions, we have been told for years to be responsible to our communities, we do that and the criticism keep coming.

 

[WhiteCloud]

If OBAP does not help their membership (which by definition exists for black airline pilots) over others, then there should not be a problem in changing OBAP's name to something race-neutral and editing their stated goals in the same way. Again, I refer you to what OBAP itself has published on its website: "The goals of OBAP are...to increase the number of black pilots hired by airlines; and to assist the black airline pilot with special needs and concerns." Is that statement consistent with an organization who you don't think helps their black members over others? And there's more: "Through networking, many black pilots' applications have been helped through the processing maze that may have otherwise been doomed to obscurity." Is that statement consistent with an organization who you don't think helps their black members over others?

You ask what would I have the black community do? I would have them do as we all should do: work hard, treat those around them fairly, obey the golden rule, etc. Why should you ask me if I think the black community should be charged with doing things differently than the rest of us? Do you think they should? Are we not all in this together? Why would black people have to accept any kind of handouts from whites? Black people are just as capable as anyone else of making their own way: they're just as smart, intelligent, warm, funny, etc, etc, etc as white, yellow, red, or brown people.

Finally, if it's true OBAP doesn't exclude inner-city white people, that's fantastic! If it's true, why all of the talk about helping black people on their website? If it's true, why make the distinction?

Well....I tried.

 

[Juvat]

.....

 

[ImRickJames]

Another red herring. This issue has nothing to do with whether or not a given individual is "comfortable in their own skin". OBAP may have members of every color. That doesn't change the name, purpose, intent, or stated goals of OBAP. One of the fundamental pillars of OBAP's existence is to further and advance the careers of its "black" and "minority" members, not the small numbers of white people who are members.

You seem more worried about it than they obviously do, since they are members. They are members because they support the organization and the org. supports them. If that was not the case then they wouldn't be there. Once again, don't worry about them, worry about yourself, numero uno.

If this bothers you so much, I suggest you send letters on nice stationary to all the HR departments of all the airlines that support OBAP's vision and let them know how you feel. Let me know how it goes.

 

[SirFlyALot]

hbrow,
While I disagree with quite a few of your viewpoints, I very much appreciate the fact that you addressed your points in a rational manner. Thanks.

BTW, since you asked, I personally know eight black pilots and at least that many other minority pilots. In the last year, of the four people I have tried to get hired where I work, two of them are black pilots. They are all good people and that is what matters.

 

[hbrow15]

If this bothers you so much, I suggest you send letters on nice stationary to all the HR departments of all the airlines that support OBAP's vision and let them know how you feel. Let me know how it goes.

Great Idea

 

[hbrow15]

hbrow,
While I disagree with quite a few of your viewpoints, I very much appreciate the fact that you addressed your points in a rational manner. Thanks.

BTW, since you asked, I personally know eight black pilots and at least that many other minority pilots. In the last year, of the four people I have tried to get hired where I work, two of them are black pilots. They are all good people and that is what matters.

No problem I enjoy a nice debate with a fellow brother in arms even if you are a Air Force Guy.

 

[Juvat]

Debating a Marine is like fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

By the way, I tried to get through your long post hbrow15, but could only read about half before I was totally lost. It was like reading one of the Unibomber letters in the New York Times. Sorry, gotta call a spade a spade.

 

[kilroy]

How many of you guys support this association. Remember don't ask don't tell.
http://www.ngpa.org/

 

[hbrow15]

Debating a Marine is like fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

By the way, I tried to get through your long post hbrow15, but could only read about half before I was totally lost. It was like reading one of the Unibomber letters in the New York Times. Sorry, gotta call a spade a spade.

I'll be your dumb Marine i've heard most of them and wear them all with pride. I will not respond to your post beyond that, I make it a point not to get into personal attacks on message boards has a hint of cowardice and if I get into it with someone I choose to do it face to face so nothing is lost in the translation. And since we dont know each other I'll assume that spade thing is just a saying.

 

[Cyclone]

poverty is color blind. there are poor kids in this country that are from every ethnic group. lots of them are a mix of different backgrounds...like mutts at the humane society. no two skin colors are the same. nevertheless, they are poor...that is what makes them similar.

underprivileged kids come from more than one place. some live in the country, some live in the hills, and some live in the city, etc. the thing that makes it hard for these kids isn't that they are all from the inner city ghetto (because they're not all from there). it's not where they are from that made it tough. it's where they aren't from that made it tougher for them. so there are a lot of places (besides the inner-city ghetto) that get excluded if your view is so narrow that you associate "had it rough" means from the hood. the biggest factor in how hard it was: the parents.

don't assume that in order to have been poor or in order to have had it rough that you had to be black. it's not logical and it's not true.

don't assume you have to be from south chicago (or similar place) to be from a place that was "hard to get out." barriers to upward social mobility doesn't afflict just one type of geographic area.

don't assume because someone is black that they were poor and that they had it rough. again...not logical and not true.

so why would an organization zero-in on race and certain zip codes if their goal was to help people those less fortunate? then they pat each other on the back at the convention and tell each other what great work they are doing. nevermind the people who could use their help that get excluded because they don't fit into their definition of who needs help.

if they really want to help "those less fortunate" then they shouldn't be so specific in who they are helping.

the way the OBAP is playing the game helps some poor underprivileged kids. others fall through the crack because they 1) aren't black and 2) aren't from the inner city. they are discriminating against kids who don't fall in their neatly defined (racist) group. that isn't a service...it's a dis-service (to all of us).

BTW...what really is a bizarre paradoxical twist in all of this is that the OBAP scholarship winner that i met had it really nice growing up (all of us should have had it so tough). all four WIA scholarship winners i know of had it downright cushy. none of those people needed help but they got it because of their race/gender...so the organizations helped them (even though they didn't need help) because the charter is to help blacks and women. i think that is wrong. it wouldn't make me pause a second if WIA and OBAP helped kids who needed help based on something other than race and gender (socioeconomic disadvantage). they don't do that...they are really good at getting (middle class?) black guys and gals hired. so does it surprise anyone that a white guy from a disadvantaged background would say WTF?

eventually these types of organizations will fade away...just like jim crow...just like segregation...it will just take time. eventually people will recognize them for what they are...prejudicial...racist...divisive.

 

[WhiteCloud]

BTW, since you asked, I personally know eight black pilots and at least that many other minority pilots. In the last year, of the four people I have tried to get hired where I work, two of them are black pilots.

It's certainly OK for you to help your friends and aquaintences navigate the hiring maze. It's not any different than other individuals or groups (like OBAP) that help bring corporate attention to those that are less connected to the industry.

 

[Cyclone]

spade a spade

Meaning

To speak plainly - to describe something as it really is.

Origin

It pre-dates the slang use of the term spade (pejorative reference to race). it's been in use since at least since 300BC (origins in greek).

just because someone takes offense doesn't mean the person who sent the message was wrong. a while back a politician got slammed because he used the term niggardly...oh my god i can't believe he said that...people went nuts...they called for his head on a platter...all because the complainers had a limited vocabulary and they didn't know the meaning of the word.

 

[Rook]

. Sorry, gotta call a spade a spade.

That a joke?

 

[ImRickJames]

Cyclone, I keep saying and will keep saying it. Your barking up the wrong tree. I'd agree with you if any organization excluded individuals in name and in practice. There many organizations, like NGPA, that help their members, whomever they may be get around the old boys network that is in the airlines. You keep spitting this idea about all the poor children from everywhere. Since all you do is complain about a problem, step up, join an organization, hopefully OBAP and start to spear programs in these areas your speaking of.

If you won't do this, shut up, because no one cares if you complain and aren't willing to do something about. You can easily join OBAP and volunteer to do programs in any city, they would love to have someone eager to help unfortunate kids. If your not willing to do something, then you are just flamebaiting.

Put up or shut up, because your arguement is getting old.