Why we have OBAP........

[SirFlyALot]

As I posted earlier, the organization found its name at a time when the main purpose was to fight for the rights of black commercial pilots who were well qualified and were not being hired. The name has stayed the same since.

Times change, situations change. There are many things that used to be okay. It used to be quite acceptable in the course of normal conversation throughout many parts of this country to use the n word. It isn't okay anymore and very rightfully so. Simply because OBAP was an acceptable label for the organization when it was founded given the circumstances of the times doesn't mean it still is.

I am not sure as a member what the position is on quotas, affirmative action because these words have never been spoken when I have dealt with the organization. As for hiring, they don't hire, the airlines do.

My questions weren't directed at the hiring practices of OBAP itself. I apologize for not making that clear. What is OBAP's official and unofficial position on racial quotas, affirmative action, and racial preference in hiring and human resources decisions with respect to aviation-related corporations and organizations? In other words, is OBAP in favor of affirmative action, or quotas or preferential hiring based on race?

Out of 75,000 commercial pilots in the US, only 2% are minorities and 5% are women. The rest are White Airline Pilots, so in essence there is plenty of organizations that as a minority, one could look at and think, would I be welcome?

One of the big differences between these organizations and OBAP is that they do not expressly advocate the concerns or situation of one race of people over another.

I do understand your point that the field of aviation is underrepresented right now with respect to the general population in it's number of minorities and that might intimidate some people. However, that does not necessarily prove a cause and effect relationship. It doesn't automatically mean that racism is rampant in aviation. It could mean a lot of things. I'm not going to pretend that I have the answers to why that is. Whatever the answer is, though, it doesn't mean that creating organizations devoted to pushing up one race over another or formulating hiring practices that favor certain races is going to rectify the situation in an acceptable manner.

Personally it doesn't bother me because I know what I bring to the table.

The goals of OBAP are to motivate our youth to become educationally prepared for life, to increase minority participation in aviation through exposure, training, mentoring, and scholarships; to encourage networking among black pilots; to increase the number of black pilots hired by airlines; and to assist the black airline pilot with special needs and concerns. [emphasis added]

Since you know what you bring to the table, you know that your qualifications can and should stand on their merits. I respect that. How can you defend OBAP and it's above-stated goals? If OBAP's value lies in it's networking function, change its name and focus to reflect that. If OBAP's value lies in it's inner-city outreach, change it's name and focus to reflect that.

Will you please sincerely answer this question: what if we replaced the word "black" or "minority" in OBAP's goals statement with the word "white"? Honestly, how would that make you feel? Personally, I would be horrified. I think we all would be.

I'm not sure how you knew that was the case because I don't know of any airline that tells you who beat you out for a position and the reason unless its a small outfit hiring a few people and you all happen to be interviewing the same day.

One example: this person is an OBAP member and was hired by a well-known carrier. I am a friend of this person and familiar with their personal situation (nothing extraordinary...not Ivy League, not a Wall Street banker, doesn't know the chief pilot, etc). This person met the minimum requirements but was far short of the widely publicized competitive min's. Many more-qualified folks with well over the competitive min's have not been called. This person was called and none of the more-qualified folks have been. The only factor that gave this person an edge was their minority status. I do not know of another reasonable way to explain it. I'm happy for this person, but do I think it's fair? Not really.

I don't think you have much to worry about the 1,500 minority commercial pilots, you might want to keep an eye on the other 73,500.

I'm not trying to be rude or sarcastic here, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you mean that as long as there are a relatively small number of people who might be able to obtain special advantages by virtue of their racial status, it's nothing to get excited about? I don't think that is what you mean, but it's the only thing I can make of it.

 

[hbrow15]

if only hiring practices could be race and gender blind...that would be cool. you get hired based on your skills.

OBAP doesn't want this...they want the scales tilted to favor hiring blacks...that is divisive, it is blatantly racist, and it also fosters the unhealthy attitude among some blacks that "i deserve to be treated better." which oh by the way fosters a ton of resentment and it hurts the very people it was designed to help. WIA suffers the same.

this is a classic "elistist liberal academic" vs. conservative argument...how do we solve the fact that there are fewer minorities in certain jobs etc? a lot of stuff that the libs wanted to jam down our throats in the 60s didn't work worth a hill of beans (busing, title IX, etc). affirmative action was a social experiment designed to discriminate "for" in a positive way to help blacks, other minorities and women. it has a very evil side that the academic elites don't see. lets all hope that john roberts and the rest put it to bed in the next 10 years. OBAP would like nothing better than to see ruth bader ginsburg bet the nod as chief justice under ms clinton's presidency.

if blacks want respect and success...and if they're smart...they will see the light that these programs only hold them back...they foster the mindset "he got the job because he's black" (even if it's not true).

This has to be one of the most uninformed sterotypical statements concerning OBAP that I have ever read.

you must have been apart of a meeting that I was not because I have never heard anyone at OBAP say anything that would make me think that they want to tilt the scales of hiring blacks. In fact the opposite is true I would not want a black pilot hired that could not cut it that feeds the sterotype that we dont belong. When I first started going to conventions as a low time pilot no one told me how to beat the system, I was told get more flight time and constuctive ways on how to do that. I would argue that more in your race have the "I deserve to be treated better" attitude with the "I was more qualified and he took my job because he was black" as was posted earlier the most flight time does not mean better qualified if that was the case many military pilots would not be hired. You asked the question how do we solve the fact that that there are fewer minorities in certian jobs?, the answer some of the things OBAP does like ACE camps, I would dare say you have no idea what ACE camps are, which is why I say your statement was uninformed. I think your statements were also uninformed because you seem to think you know where the memberships polital loyalties rest, sure I a few "Kerry for president" buttons but I also saw those same buttons on white pilots as well. For me, I have been a Republican since I was 20, voted for Bush twice, fact is I'm a Marine first and that guides how I vote not ALPA or OBAP, so dont assume you know where any man's loyalties lean, you know what they say about assuming.

You said if blacks want respect and success they would see that light about affirmative action and such programs, first I consider myself very successful and as far as respect never been a problem for me, I hold my own in and out of the cockpit. For the record I agree with you about afirmative action and busing I never felt I needed to sit next to a white kid in order to be successful just the same opportunity, which by the way is not always equal. I know this for fact because I went to a mostly white Jr High and an all black high school the differences in computer labs and such was frightning but thats another thread.

As I have said on other threads you are more than welcome to come to the next convention in Phoenix and see for yourself, if you get past the name you might enjoy yourself and see that all are welcome and we throw a hell of a party. 1st round of Bud Light on me.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Sometimes you can't win over hearts and minds. Some folks will complain if they perceive a minority group to be looking for handouts and also complain if that same minority group exercises independent leadership to help members of their community get ahead. While a name change to something more inclusive may be in order down the road that's really for the members and people that devote their time and lives to OBAP to decide. OBAP has been a valuable resource to many of my students. It just never occured to me to join until now. WC

 

[ImRickJames]

if only hiring practices could be race and gender blind...that would be cool. you get hired based on your skills.

OBAP doesn't want this...they want the scales tilted to favor hiring blacks...that is divisive, it is blatantly racist, and it also fosters the unhealthy attitude among some blacks that "i deserve to be treated better."
this is a classic "elistist liberal academic" vs. conservative argument...how do we solve the fact that there are fewer minorities in certain jobs etc? a lot of stuff that the libs wanted to jam down our throats in the 60s didn't work worth a hill of beans (busing, title IX, etc). affirmative action was a social experiment designed to discriminate "for" in a positive way to help blacks, other minorities and women. it has a very evil side that the academic elites don't see. lets all hope that john roberts and the rest put it to bed in the next 10 years. OBAP would like nothing better than to see ruth bader ginsburg bet the nod as chief justice under ms clinton's presidency.

if blacks want respect and success...and if they're smart...they will see the light that these programs only hold them back...they foster the mindset "he got the job because he's black" (even if it's not true).

Here we go again, I know you wish that it was like the 60's still and you really think that "C'mon, theres no racism out there." Of course theres not for you, since when have you been discriminated for being white. Gimme a break. You have no absolute disadvantage because of your skin. You never have and you never will, so stop spitting your ignorance that racism doesn't exist.

By the way, In the late 60's the entity that decided that your so called "overprivileged" blacks have the right to be hired in the majors was the US Supreme Court. Obviously from your post you think that was another idiotic law passed in the 60's, "how could they do such a thing?"

You also assume that just cause someone is a minority, that is the reason they are getting any jobs. I would love to go toe to toe in an interview with all of our qualifications and interview skills and I bet you assume that If I get the job, it surely can't be that I look and am so much better that I make you lookridiculous.

Personally, I had high GPA's in any of my degree programs because I studied my ass off, no other reason. I recieved my ATP by flying within ATP standards.

The original answer to this thread is that anyone can be an OBAP member and if you get involved in its many program, you will meet many members that are from all the possible airlines out there. If someone doesn't feel comfortable in their own skin that being around people with many different shades, not only theirs, make them uncomfortable, than yes you may not be comfortable in an organization like OBAP that have members that cover the color spectrum.

 

[Cyclone]

obap makes a distinction between us based on race. BTW you don't know my race.

i try not to make distinctions about people based on race...i was taught by my daddy that it was rude to make those kind of distinctions.

OBAP...here is a group of pilots...an organization of black airline pilots (albeit anyone can join) that makes a racial distinction in their name and in their charter. who do they award the scholarships to? white pilots? didn't think so...it is racially motivated with the purpose of furthering the cause of black pilots...totally racist.

WIA...same...totally sexist.

when they do award scholarships to black pilots...those pilots jump to the front of the line and go to airline XYZ. the scholarship winners are black. are they poor? maybe (maybe not). chances are they are from families that had a lot more money than mine did growing up...you may not believe this but there are some white pilots from the wrong side of the tracks too...who is looking out for their interests? the only OBAP scholarship winner i ever met (sample size of one) he grew up in a family a lot more affluent than my family was...funny that he got a scholarship and hired directly by SWA (thus circumventing the normal application/interview process because the OBAP scholarship winners are basically direct hires and go into the first available class...this is true...they jump the queue). anyway, he probably woud have been hired anyway...so all the OBAP did was short circuit the normal hiring process and put him in line ahead of all the guys and gals waiting in the pool (there were ~200 in the pool waiting at the time).

all the WIA scholarship winners i have met (4 to be exact) came from affluent upper middle class backgrounds...they got hired because they had vaginas (not because they had it rough).

all of this "social engineering" is a result of the 50s-60s racial movements. it is a leftover of the 60s idealism of people trying to make things better but sometimes making things worse.

HR departments are responsible for who gets hired (not OBAP). however, OBAP knows how the system works and they work it to try to give advantages to a group of people based on their race (not their socioeconomic background). that is racist and sad.

i think what the previous post that said (if you changed the name to "organization of white" instead of "black") is true...it would horrify any normal, educated, good person.

it is a double standard to think that is OK to have an OBAP because you are helping blacks. truth is that this group is targeting who they help based on race...and it makes a distinction between people based on race. any group that does this...whether it's based on race or gender is taking a stance "against" everyone else they distinguish themselves from. that's who is leftover...those not in their target group. if they were out to help underprivileged or poor it would be cool with me but that's not what they do.

you can have your club...no one can take it away. it's perfectly legal. it's just sad that you...especially as a former marine can't see it for what it is. it's a racially motivated group who drive a wedge between whites and blacks...it fosters resentment and hate.

 

[ImRickJames]

Sometimes you can't win over hearts and minds. Some folks will complain if they perceive a minority group to be looking for handouts and also complain if that same minority group exercises independent leadership to help members of their community get ahead. While a name change to something more inclusive may be in order down the road that's really for the members and people that devote their time and lives to OBAP to decide. OBAP has been a valuable resource to many of my students. It just never occured to me to join until now. WC

I agree White Cloud, it is futile. We know that the organization was started for right reasons and it still has its heart in the right place. I'm glad I'm a member because I've met some good people and recieve great advice from airline representatives and members alike.

 

[Cyclone]

bussing was started with good intentions.

the most notable effect it had was to hurt inner-city poor black kids.

 

[Cyclone]

Here we go again, I know you wish that it was like the 60's still and you really think that "C'mon, theres no racism out there." Of course theres not for you, since when have you been discriminated for being white. Gimme a break. You have no absolute disadvantage because of your skin. You never have and you never will, so stop spitting your ignorance that racism doesn't exist.

By the way, In the late 60's the entity that decided that your so called "overprivileged" blacks have the right to be hired in the majors was the US Supreme Court. Obviously from your post you think that was another idiotic law passed in the 60's, "how could they do such a thing?"

You also assume that just cause someone is a minority, that is the reason they are getting any jobs. I would love to go toe to toe in an interview with all of our qualifications and interview skills and I bet you assume that If I get the job, it surely can't be that I look and am so much better that I make you lookridiculous.

Personally, I had high GPA's in any of my degree programs because I studied my ass off, no other reason. I recieved my ATP by flying within ATP standards.

The original answer to this thread is that anyone can be an OBAP member and if you get involved in its many program, you will meet many members that are from all the possible airlines out there. If someone doesn't feel comfortable in their own skin that being around people with many different shades, not only theirs, make them uncomfortable, than yes you may not be comfortable in an organization like OBAP that have members that cover the color spectrum.

rick james...you have no idea what i wish for and you have no idea how your capabilities would stack up against mine.

you sure have a lot of generalizations that you can't back up in your post. my disadvantage is that there are people like you...unwilling to recognize a double standard...unwilling to acknowledge that stereotyping a group in a negative way (as you did personally towards me) is inherently bad. you can paint anyway you want but that doesn't change what it is. discrimination is discrimination. prejudice is prejudice. i don't like it in any shape color or form. i believe it is wrong. you don't know me and you don't know anything about me so don't pretend like you can commment about me personally.

 

[HawkerF/O]

.01%? You math is a little off. That is why you don't have a job you dont whine about, you don't know how to do simple math.
The point you seem to keep missing is that it is not about the slaves, it's about the racial discrimination that has gone on for hundreds of years. Just go back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, and in aviation, well into the 80s. Blacks could not get into the same schools, resturants, librarys, etc as whites. They didn't have the same opprotunities as whites for all those years. They were getting substandard educations and now, all of a sudden, you expect them to catch up with the whites the same day discrimination is outlawed. Are you kidding me? In the until the mid 80s, blacks could not even get an airline interview for a pilot job. THat is the reason UAL gets a tough time from all these pilots because they hire minorities. They got the pants sued off of them for not giving blacks and other minirities the same chance as others. They corrected that deficiency by agressively hring those they would not ever condier for so many years.
Whites as still benefiting from the slave labor the country was built on. I know the you, me, Joe Smith, etc was not part of that, but we still benefit from it to this day. By our ancestors having slaves, it allowed our great granfather'/mothers to go to school instead of having to stay home and work the land. It allowed their children to go to school and the cycle just continued. When the slaves were freed, the land still needed to be worked, and the blacks did not have schools to go to. They were given jobs at slave wages which allowed the whites to go to school and kept the blacks in the fields and in poverty. Once again, the cycle continued. Those blacks were not given educations by mazza when they were slaves, so they had nothing to fal back on when their "career" as slaves was over, so they had to keep working.
Had the minirities been given the same opprotunities as the whites, we would not be having this conversaiton. Don't blame those that benefit, blame your ancestors.

You gotta be fu*king kidding me. Do you really think that white people should bend over and take it in the arse, because of what .01% of their great grandaddys may have done?

I have never owned a slave, or denied opportunity to anyone. Why the fu*k would I be glad about being discriminated against? It is no more just to discriminate against me than it is for me to discriminate against someone of another race.

 

[FN FAL]

As I posted earlier, the organization found its name at a time when the main purpose was to fight for the rights of black commercial pilots who were well qualified and were not being hired. The name has stayed the same since.

If this "mock-u-mentary" wasn't so sad, it would be funnier...

http://video.mpegnation.com/a001539517305051005020932622.html