Why we have OBAP........

[SirFlyALot]

As I posted earlier, the organization found its name at a time when the main purpose was to fight for the rights of black commercial pilots who were well qualified and were not being hired. The name has stayed the same since.

Times change, situations change. There are many things that used to be okay. It used to be quite acceptable in the course of normal conversation throughout many parts of this country to use the n word. It isn't okay anymore and very rightfully so. Simply because OBAP was an acceptable label for the organization when it was founded given the circumstances of the times doesn't mean it still is.

I am not sure as a member what the position is on quotas, affirmative action because these words have never been spoken when I have dealt with the organization. As for hiring, they don't hire, the airlines do.

My questions weren't directed at the hiring practices of OBAP itself. I apologize for not making that clear. What is OBAP's official and unofficial position on racial quotas, affirmative action, and racial preference in hiring and human resources decisions with respect to aviation-related corporations and organizations? In other words, is OBAP in favor of affirmative action, or quotas or preferential hiring based on race?

Out of 75,000 commercial pilots in the US, only 2% are minorities and 5% are women. The rest are White Airline Pilots, so in essence there is plenty of organizations that as a minority, one could look at and think, would I be welcome?

One of the big differences between these organizations and OBAP is that they do not expressly advocate the concerns or situation of one race of people over another.

I do understand your point that the field of aviation is underrepresented right now with respect to the general population in it's number of minorities and that might intimidate some people. However, that does not necessarily prove a cause and effect relationship. It doesn't automatically mean that racism is rampant in aviation. It could mean a lot of things. I'm not going to pretend that I have the answers to why that is. Whatever the answer is, though, it doesn't mean that creating organizations devoted to pushing up one race over another or formulating hiring practices that favor certain races is going to rectify the situation in an acceptable manner.

Personally it doesn't bother me because I know what I bring to the table.

The goals of OBAP are to motivate our youth to become educationally prepared for life, to increase minority participation in aviation through exposure, training, mentoring, and scholarships; to encourage networking among black pilots; to increase the number of black pilots hired by airlines; and to assist the black airline pilot with special needs and concerns. [emphasis added]

Since you know what you bring to the table, you know that your qualifications can and should stand on their merits. I respect that. How can you defend OBAP and it's above-stated goals? If OBAP's value lies in it's networking function, change its name and focus to reflect that. If OBAP's value lies in it's inner-city outreach, change it's name and focus to reflect that.

Will you please sincerely answer this question: what if we replaced the word "black" or "minority" in OBAP's goals statement with the word "white"? Honestly, how would that make you feel? Personally, I would be horrified. I think we all would be.

I'm not sure how you knew that was the case because I don't know of any airline that tells you who beat you out for a position and the reason unless its a small outfit hiring a few people and you all happen to be interviewing the same day.

One example: this person is an OBAP member and was hired by a well-known carrier. I am a friend of this person and familiar with their personal situation (nothing extraordinary...not Ivy League, not a Wall Street banker, doesn't know the chief pilot, etc). This person met the minimum requirements but was far short of the widely publicized competitive min's. Many more-qualified folks with well over the competitive min's have not been called. This person was called and none of the more-qualified folks have been. The only factor that gave this person an edge was their minority status. I do not know of another reasonable way to explain it. I'm happy for this person, but do I think it's fair? Not really.

I don't think you have much to worry about the 1,500 minority commercial pilots, you might want to keep an eye on the other 73,500.

I'm not trying to be rude or sarcastic here, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you mean that as long as there are a relatively small number of people who might be able to obtain special advantages by virtue of their racial status, it's nothing to get excited about? I don't think that is what you mean, but it's the only thing I can make of it.

 

[hbrow15]

if only hiring practices could be race and gender blind...that would be cool. you get hired based on your skills.

OBAP doesn't want this...they want the scales tilted to favor hiring blacks...that is divisive, it is blatantly racist, and it also fosters the unhealthy attitude among some blacks that "i deserve to be treated better." which oh by the way fosters a ton of resentment and it hurts the very people it was designed to help. WIA suffers the same.

this is a classic "elistist liberal academic" vs. conservative argument...how do we solve the fact that there are fewer minorities in certain jobs etc? a lot of stuff that the libs wanted to jam down our throats in the 60s didn't work worth a hill of beans (busing, title IX, etc). affirmative action was a social experiment designed to discriminate "for" in a positive way to help blacks, other minorities and women. it has a very evil side that the academic elites don't see. lets all hope that john roberts and the rest put it to bed in the next 10 years. OBAP would like nothing better than to see ruth bader ginsburg bet the nod as chief justice under ms clinton's presidency.

if blacks want respect and success...and if they're smart...they will see the light that these programs only hold them back...they foster the mindset "he got the job because he's black" (even if it's not true).

This has to be one of the most uninformed sterotypical statements concerning OBAP that I have ever read.

you must have been apart of a meeting that I was not because I have never heard anyone at OBAP say anything that would make me think that they want to tilt the scales of hiring blacks. In fact the opposite is true I would not want a black pilot hired that could not cut it that feeds the sterotype that we dont belong. When I first started going to conventions as a low time pilot no one told me how to beat the system, I was told get more flight time and constuctive ways on how to do that. I would argue that more in your race have the "I deserve to be treated better" attitude with the "I was more qualified and he took my job because he was black" as was posted earlier the most flight time does not mean better qualified if that was the case many military pilots would not be hired. You asked the question how do we solve the fact that that there are fewer minorities in certian jobs?, the answer some of the things OBAP does like ACE camps, I would dare say you have no idea what ACE camps are, which is why I say your statement was uninformed. I think your statements were also uninformed because you seem to think you know where the memberships polital loyalties rest, sure I a few "Kerry for president" buttons but I also saw those same buttons on white pilots as well. For me, I have been a Republican since I was 20, voted for Bush twice, fact is I'm a Marine first and that guides how I vote not ALPA or OBAP, so dont assume you know where any man's loyalties lean, you know what they say about assuming.

You said if blacks want respect and success they would see that light about affirmative action and such programs, first I consider myself very successful and as far as respect never been a problem for me, I hold my own in and out of the cockpit. For the record I agree with you about afirmative action and busing I never felt I needed to sit next to a white kid in order to be successful just the same opportunity, which by the way is not always equal. I know this for fact because I went to a mostly white Jr High and an all black high school the differences in computer labs and such was frightning but thats another thread.

As I have said on other threads you are more than welcome to come to the next convention in Phoenix and see for yourself, if you get past the name you might enjoy yourself and see that all are welcome and we throw a hell of a party. 1st round of Bud Light on me.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Sometimes you can't win over hearts and minds. Some folks will complain if they perceive a minority group to be looking for handouts and also complain if that same minority group exercises independent leadership to help members of their community get ahead. While a name change to something more inclusive may be in order down the road that's really for the members and people that devote their time and lives to OBAP to decide. OBAP has been a valuable resource to many of my students. It just never occured to me to join until now. WC

 

[ImRickJames]

if only hiring practices could be race and gender blind...that would be cool. you get hired based on your skills.

OBAP doesn't want this...they want the scales tilted to favor hiring blacks...that is divisive, it is blatantly racist, and it also fosters the unhealthy attitude among some blacks that "i deserve to be treated better."
this is a classic "elistist liberal academic" vs. conservative argument...how do we solve the fact that there are fewer minorities in certain jobs etc? a lot of stuff that the libs wanted to jam down our throats in the 60s didn't work worth a hill of beans (busing, title IX, etc). affirmative action was a social experiment designed to discriminate "for" in a positive way to help blacks, other minorities and women. it has a very evil side that the academic elites don't see. lets all hope that john roberts and the rest put it to bed in the next 10 years. OBAP would like nothing better than to see ruth bader ginsburg bet the nod as chief justice under ms clinton's presidency.

if blacks want respect and success...and if they're smart...they will see the light that these programs only hold them back...they foster the mindset "he got the job because he's black" (even if it's not true).

Here we go again, I know you wish that it was like the 60's still and you really think that "C'mon, theres no racism out there." Of course theres not for you, since when have you been discriminated for being white. Gimme a break. You have no absolute disadvantage because of your skin. You never have and you never will, so stop spitting your ignorance that racism doesn't exist.

By the way, In the late 60's the entity that decided that your so called "overprivileged" blacks have the right to be hired in the majors was the US Supreme Court. Obviously from your post you think that was another idiotic law passed in the 60's, "how could they do such a thing?"

You also assume that just cause someone is a minority, that is the reason they are getting any jobs. I would love to go toe to toe in an interview with all of our qualifications and interview skills and I bet you assume that If I get the job, it surely can't be that I look and am so much better that I make you lookridiculous.

Personally, I had high GPA's in any of my degree programs because I studied my ass off, no other reason. I recieved my ATP by flying within ATP standards.

The original answer to this thread is that anyone can be an OBAP member and if you get involved in its many program, you will meet many members that are from all the possible airlines out there. If someone doesn't feel comfortable in their own skin that being around people with many different shades, not only theirs, make them uncomfortable, than yes you may not be comfortable in an organization like OBAP that have members that cover the color spectrum.

 

[Cyclone]

obap makes a distinction between us based on race. BTW you don't know my race.

i try not to make distinctions about people based on race...i was taught by my daddy that it was rude to make those kind of distinctions.

OBAP...here is a group of pilots...an organization of black airline pilots (albeit anyone can join) that makes a racial distinction in their name and in their charter. who do they award the scholarships to? white pilots? didn't think so...it is racially motivated with the purpose of furthering the cause of black pilots...totally racist.

WIA...same...totally sexist.

when they do award scholarships to black pilots...those pilots jump to the front of the line and go to airline XYZ. the scholarship winners are black. are they poor? maybe (maybe not). chances are they are from families that had a lot more money than mine did growing up...you may not believe this but there are some white pilots from the wrong side of the tracks too...who is looking out for their interests? the only OBAP scholarship winner i ever met (sample size of one) he grew up in a family a lot more affluent than my family was...funny that he got a scholarship and hired directly by SWA (thus circumventing the normal application/interview process because the OBAP scholarship winners are basically direct hires and go into the first available class...this is true...they jump the queue). anyway, he probably woud have been hired anyway...so all the OBAP did was short circuit the normal hiring process and put him in line ahead of all the guys and gals waiting in the pool (there were ~200 in the pool waiting at the time).

all the WIA scholarship winners i have met (4 to be exact) came from affluent upper middle class backgrounds...they got hired because they had vaginas (not because they had it rough).

all of this "social engineering" is a result of the 50s-60s racial movements. it is a leftover of the 60s idealism of people trying to make things better but sometimes making things worse.

HR departments are responsible for who gets hired (not OBAP). however, OBAP knows how the system works and they work it to try to give advantages to a group of people based on their race (not their socioeconomic background). that is racist and sad.

i think what the previous post that said (if you changed the name to "organization of white" instead of "black") is true...it would horrify any normal, educated, good person.

it is a double standard to think that is OK to have an OBAP because you are helping blacks. truth is that this group is targeting who they help based on race...and it makes a distinction between people based on race. any group that does this...whether it's based on race or gender is taking a stance "against" everyone else they distinguish themselves from. that's who is leftover...those not in their target group. if they were out to help underprivileged or poor it would be cool with me but that's not what they do.

you can have your club...no one can take it away. it's perfectly legal. it's just sad that you...especially as a former marine can't see it for what it is. it's a racially motivated group who drive a wedge between whites and blacks...it fosters resentment and hate.

 

[ImRickJames]

Sometimes you can't win over hearts and minds. Some folks will complain if they perceive a minority group to be looking for handouts and also complain if that same minority group exercises independent leadership to help members of their community get ahead. While a name change to something more inclusive may be in order down the road that's really for the members and people that devote their time and lives to OBAP to decide. OBAP has been a valuable resource to many of my students. It just never occured to me to join until now. WC

I agree White Cloud, it is futile. We know that the organization was started for right reasons and it still has its heart in the right place. I'm glad I'm a member because I've met some good people and recieve great advice from airline representatives and members alike.

 

[Cyclone]

bussing was started with good intentions.

the most notable effect it had was to hurt inner-city poor black kids.

 

[Cyclone]

Here we go again, I know you wish that it was like the 60's still and you really think that "C'mon, theres no racism out there." Of course theres not for you, since when have you been discriminated for being white. Gimme a break. You have no absolute disadvantage because of your skin. You never have and you never will, so stop spitting your ignorance that racism doesn't exist.

By the way, In the late 60's the entity that decided that your so called "overprivileged" blacks have the right to be hired in the majors was the US Supreme Court. Obviously from your post you think that was another idiotic law passed in the 60's, "how could they do such a thing?"

You also assume that just cause someone is a minority, that is the reason they are getting any jobs. I would love to go toe to toe in an interview with all of our qualifications and interview skills and I bet you assume that If I get the job, it surely can't be that I look and am so much better that I make you lookridiculous.

Personally, I had high GPA's in any of my degree programs because I studied my ass off, no other reason. I recieved my ATP by flying within ATP standards.

The original answer to this thread is that anyone can be an OBAP member and if you get involved in its many program, you will meet many members that are from all the possible airlines out there. If someone doesn't feel comfortable in their own skin that being around people with many different shades, not only theirs, make them uncomfortable, than yes you may not be comfortable in an organization like OBAP that have members that cover the color spectrum.

rick james...you have no idea what i wish for and you have no idea how your capabilities would stack up against mine.

you sure have a lot of generalizations that you can't back up in your post. my disadvantage is that there are people like you...unwilling to recognize a double standard...unwilling to acknowledge that stereotyping a group in a negative way (as you did personally towards me) is inherently bad. you can paint anyway you want but that doesn't change what it is. discrimination is discrimination. prejudice is prejudice. i don't like it in any shape color or form. i believe it is wrong. you don't know me and you don't know anything about me so don't pretend like you can commment about me personally.

 

[HawkerF/O]

.01%? You math is a little off. That is why you don't have a job you dont whine about, you don't know how to do simple math.
The point you seem to keep missing is that it is not about the slaves, it's about the racial discrimination that has gone on for hundreds of years. Just go back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, and in aviation, well into the 80s. Blacks could not get into the same schools, resturants, librarys, etc as whites. They didn't have the same opprotunities as whites for all those years. They were getting substandard educations and now, all of a sudden, you expect them to catch up with the whites the same day discrimination is outlawed. Are you kidding me? In the until the mid 80s, blacks could not even get an airline interview for a pilot job. THat is the reason UAL gets a tough time from all these pilots because they hire minorities. They got the pants sued off of them for not giving blacks and other minirities the same chance as others. They corrected that deficiency by agressively hring those they would not ever condier for so many years.
Whites as still benefiting from the slave labor the country was built on. I know the you, me, Joe Smith, etc was not part of that, but we still benefit from it to this day. By our ancestors having slaves, it allowed our great granfather'/mothers to go to school instead of having to stay home and work the land. It allowed their children to go to school and the cycle just continued. When the slaves were freed, the land still needed to be worked, and the blacks did not have schools to go to. They were given jobs at slave wages which allowed the whites to go to school and kept the blacks in the fields and in poverty. Once again, the cycle continued. Those blacks were not given educations by mazza when they were slaves, so they had nothing to fal back on when their "career" as slaves was over, so they had to keep working.
Had the minirities been given the same opprotunities as the whites, we would not be having this conversaiton. Don't blame those that benefit, blame your ancestors.

You gotta be fu*king kidding me. Do you really think that white people should bend over and take it in the arse, because of what .01% of their great grandaddys may have done?

I have never owned a slave, or denied opportunity to anyone. Why the fu*k would I be glad about being discriminated against? It is no more just to discriminate against me than it is for me to discriminate against someone of another race.

 

[FN FAL]

As I posted earlier, the organization found its name at a time when the main purpose was to fight for the rights of black commercial pilots who were well qualified and were not being hired. The name has stayed the same since.

If this "mock-u-mentary" wasn't so sad, it would be funnier...

http://video.mpegnation.com/a001539517305051005020932622.html

 

[hbrow15]

obap makes a distinction between us based on race. BTW you don't know my race.

i try not to make distinctions about people based on race...i was taught by my daddy that it was rude to make those kind of distinctions.

OBAP...here is a group of pilots...an organization of black airline pilots (albeit anyone can join) that makes a racial distinction in their name and in their charter. who do they award the scholarships to? white pilots? didn't think so...it is racially motivated with the purpose of furthering the cause of black pilots...totally racist.

WIA...same...totally sexist.

when they do award scholarships to black pilots...those pilots jump to the front of the line and go to airline XYZ. the scholarship winners are black. are they poor? maybe (maybe not). chances are they are from families that had a lot more money than mine did growing up...you may not believe this but there are some white pilots from the wrong side of the tracks too...who is looking out for their interests? the only OBAP scholarship winner i ever met (sample size of one) he grew up in a family a lot more affluent than my family was...funny that he got a scholarship and hired directly by SWA (thus circumventing the normal application/interview process because the OBAP scholarship winners are basically direct hires and go into the first available class...this is true...they jump the queue). anyway, he probably woud have been hired anyway...so all the OBAP did was short circuit the normal hiring process and put him in line ahead of all the guys and gals waiting in the pool (there were ~200 in the pool waiting at the time).

all the WIA scholarship winners i have met (4 to be exact) came from affluent upper middle class backgrounds...they got hired because they had vaginas (not because they had it rough).

all of this "social engineering" is a result of the 50s-60s racial movements. it is a leftover of the 60s idealism of people trying to make things better but sometimes making things worse.

HR departments are responsible for who gets hired (not OBAP). however, OBAP knows how the system works and they work it to try to give advantages to a group of people based on their race (not their socioeconomic background). that is racist and sad.

i think what the previous post that said (if you changed the name to "organization of white" instead of "black") is true...it would horrify any normal, educated, good person.

it is a double standard to think that is OK to have an OBAP because you are helping blacks. truth is that this group is targeting who they help based on race...and it makes a distinction between people based on race. any group that does this...whether it's based on race or gender is taking a stance "against" everyone else they distinguish themselves from. that's who is leftover...those not in their target group. if they were out to help underprivileged or poor it would be cool with me but that's not what they do.

you can have your club...no one can take it away. it's perfectly legal. it's just sad that you...especially as a former marine can't see it for what it is. it's a racially motivated group who drive a wedge between whites and blacks...it fosters resentment and hate.

Cyclone
1st I know your a navy guy but Marine is always capitalized give the Eagle Globe and Anchor it's due respect I just noticed you are a P-3 guy funny we may have ran into each other, Were you ever station at NAS JAX?, that's where I recieved all my flight training at Jax Navy Flying club. Based on your theory we should have a problem just with the name, we are all military why divide us based on the branch of service and not replace Navy with military? Probably because it was on a Navy base most people that would be members would be sailors but we all were able to join. We had dirt cheap rates at the flying club and paid no tax therefore it made flight training much more affordable as a matter of fact if it were not for my GI bill and the flying club I probably would not have been able to afford my flight training, since this avenue was only open to military is that fair to everyone else who is not in the military?. It seems as if your problem is with the airlines that do the hiring in your example SWA. These companies set it's own practice that we may or may not think is right. I was at an air inc conference once when I learned Jetblue for instance, in every interview group tries to include a certian number bomber pilots, a certain number of fighter pilots, helo guys, blacks, women, military transport and so forth just so they have a diverse background among the pilot ranks because everyone brings different experiences based on thier background. Now you may ask why there was not mention of white guys, out of those groups that they try to include which one you think they may have a hard time filling? the fact of the matter is there is no shortage on white male applicants and notice I said interviewed not hired, everyone still has to get through the same process. One problem is when a black guy gets hired and a white guy does not automatically somewhere in his mind he will probably think that he was not hired and the other guy was is because he was black. You dont think guys or women have come out of interviews unhired thinking it was because he was black or she was a woman? and none ever stop to think it was because the other applicants had better interviews. You were a P-3 driver how many of your squadron mates walked in your resume or how many have you walked in? now how many Marine or army Aviators resume's did you walk in I would dare say not many if any because those are not the circles you run in, and of those that you have how many were black pilots?. Is this unfair for you or your squadron mates to jump to the front of the line because you knew someone? and we both know that this happens because if any Marine came through I would do whatever I could to get him onboard. So what's the difference or are you saying it's ok to make a end run around the process as long as you are not black or a woman? Again Obap target's inner city kids that many feel like if they dont run with the ball the only way to any financial success is criminal activity and we are a group of pilots that come from those same communities trying to show them a different path and we are just one group of proffesionals that give of our time in this manner there are groups of black Engineers Doctors Lawyers and so forth that came from the "Hood" and were at one point knuckleheads and found away out doing something different that what I described before. You say they target who they help based on race, somewhat true, as stated before it's mostly inner city areas they target which you have already said have been harmed in the past, but if you go to these areas and knock on ten doors who do you think will answer the majority of the time people who look like you or people who look like me. If we went to gated upper class communities and knocked on ten doors who do you think would answer the majority of the time people who look like you or people who look like me. So it stands to reason if you target a certain area the majority of the participants would fit the demographic of that area. So as white cloud said if we dont go into where we grew up and try to make a change who will? the fact of the matter is even if your heart was in the right place, the Organization of White Airline Pilots would not make the same impact to inner city black kids as OBAP would. You asked how many white's recieved scholarships from OBAP? to my knowledge...none, then again I dont recall seeing to many black's taking pictures for AOPA scholarships or very many other's that didn't envolve a football or a basketball. Through the professional pilot development program OBAP takes and young person from zero time matches him dollar for dollar on his training all the way through CFI,II & MEI mentoring him all the way through and again the majority are black but not all. If SWA UAL USA DAL choose to support that with type rating scholarships we thank them for thier support, and make no mistake no one makes that type of commitment unless they think there is something in it for them even if it's just a tax write off or maybe they see the same issues and think we have a good fix for the problem that thier business can help with. You said you came from the other side of the tracks so on some levels you can relate and maybe even more than I would ever know so open invitation me and you go to a ACE camp or we'll do pilots in schools together and we can even goto an all white school, if you will goto one with me in the "hood", that way you can make an informed opinion based off of your own experiences. PM me when your ready

 

[ImRickJames]

rick james...you have no idea what i wish for and you have no idea how your capabilities would stack up against mine.

you sure have a lot of generalizations that you can't back up in your post. my disadvantage is that there are people like you...unwilling to recognize a double standard...unwilling to acknowledge that stereotyping a group in a negative way (as you did personally towards me) is inherently bad. you can paint anyway you want but that doesn't change what it is. discrimination is discrimination. prejudice is prejudice. i don't like it in any shape color or form. i believe it is wrong. you don't know me and you don't know anything about me so don't pretend like you can commment about me personally.

I know you by what you post on the thread, it doesn't take a genius to see that you are insecure in your ability to get a job because you seem to blame everyone else. There are people getting hired every month, if your not, then you need to do something to improve your standing.

In an interview, they don't like hearing excuses, so you might want to start practicing taking responsibility for your advancement or lack there of.

 

[SirFlyALot]

This has to be one of the most uninformed sterotypical statements concerning OBAP that I have ever read.

you must have been apart of a meeting that I was not because I have never heard anyone at OBAP say anything that would make me think that they want to tilt the scales of hiring blacks.

Hbrow, Cyclone didn't have to attend a meeting to gather this impression. All that Cyclone had to do was click over to www.obap.org and do a little reading. OBAP's intent may very well be to make sure minority pilots are hired based on their merits. However, from reading their website and knowing what OBAP stands for, it is very easy to arrive at a different conclusion without performing any gymnastic feats of logic. None of the OBAP members here have yet answered the question of OBAP's position on affirmative action, etc.

first I consider myself very successful and as far as respect never been a problem for me, I hold my own in and out of the cockpit.

Hbrow, I respect your confidence in your own abilities and your own merits. But, then, it begs the same question I asked ImRickJames, why defend OBAP when you know full well what its stated goals are? None of the OBAP members here have yet answered this question either: how would you feel if we substituted the word "white" for the words "black" or "minority" in OBAP's goals statement? Why not transform OBAP into an organization devoted to helping disadvantaged people regardless of their race?

Some folks will complain if they perceive a minority group to be looking for handouts and also complain if that same minority group exercises independent leadership to help members of their community get ahead.

WhiteCloud, this statement is a bit of a red herring. You whiplash us with two situations on opposite ends of the spectrum in an attempt to draw attention away from the centrial issue. The central issue is: is it acceptable in your book for OBAP to promote the issues and concerns of certain racial groups over others? If it is acceptable, logically defend your viewpoint head-on without resorting to hyperbole, emotion, or other curveballs.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable in their own skin that being around people with many different shades, not only theirs, make them uncomfortable, than yes you may not be comfortable in an organization like OBAP that have members that cover the color spectrum.

Another red herring. This issue has nothing to do with whether or not a given individual is "comfortable in their own skin". OBAP may have members of every color. That doesn't change the name, purpose, intent, or stated goals of OBAP. One of the fundamental pillars of OBAP's existence is to further and advance the careers of its "black" and "minority" members, not the small numbers of white people who are members.

The point you seem to keep missing is that it is not about the slaves, it's about the racial discrimination that has gone on for hundreds of years. Just go back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, and in aviation, well into the 80s. Blacks could not get into the same schools, resturants, librarys, etc as whites...

What happened to blacks in this country was a horrible thing; no way around it. However, the way to get past it is not by creating new patterns of racial discrimination and exclusion. You know what, at some point in the past, my ancestors may have owned slaves. I don't know. On the other hand, at some point in the past, your ancestors may have also owned slaves. Does that mean you or I should be discriminated against? My father went into Mississippi during the 1960's as a Freedom Rider to aid the civil rights movement. He risked his life to help integrate the South. Should I be granted special priveleges for my father's actions? As I grew up, he taught me that race should not and does not matter. OBAP today seems to be at odds with that notion. I talk to my father today and he feels that programs like affirmative action have taken the ideals of the civil rights movement beyond their original vision.

 

[ImRickJames]

SirFlyALot vbmenu_register("postmenu_737589", true); , we shall not come to an agreement today nor ever on this matter. Agree to disagree and may we both live on to a fruitful career. Good day to you sir!

 

[SirFlyALot]

You were a P-3 driver how many of your squadron mates walked in your resume or how many have you walked in? now how many Marine or army Aviators resume's did you walk in I would dare say not many if any because those are not the circles you run in, and of those that you have how many were black pilots?. Is this unfair for you or your squadron mates to jump to the front of the line because you knew someone?

Hbrow, please don't try to distract the issue at hand: we are talking about racial discrimination, not whether or not it is okay to advocate for friends and acquaintances. That is an entirely separate issue. Relationships are the fabric of society and we will not and should not ever escape that. When military guys recommend their friends to the chief pilot, this is based on merit in the eyes of the guy doing the recommending. Same goes for civilian guys recommending their friends. It's not like you walk into the chief pilot or HR rep and say, "Hey so-and-so, I know this really great white guy. He's comes from a great white family and all his friends are white too, etc" No, you don't do that. You walk in and tout the merits of your friend. You say something like, "Hey so-and-so, I want to recommend a great guy that we need to hire. He was an evaluator and instructor in the military, he's got 5000 hrs. Outside of flying, he's involved with Charity X and Charity Y, etc". Pushing your friends because you think they are great people is the way society does business. Pushing your friends because you favor their skin color is wrong.

So as white cloud said if we dont go into where we grew up and try to make a change who will? the fact of the matter is even if your heart was in the right place, the Organization of White Airline Pilots would not make the same impact to inner city black kids as OBAP would.

Hbrow, amen, I agree that we all shoud try to help all people who are less fortunate. I'm simply not willing to frame my extension of help in terms of people who belong to a certain race.
And...amen again! An organization called the Organization of White Airline Pilots wouldn't get very far. Nor should it get very far. Hbrow, if your primary interest in OBAP is helping inner-city youth, then why not push for OBAP to become an organization devoted to that cause? I can totally understand that and would have no problem supporting that. Why not push OBAP to eliminate racial language or bias from their mission?

 

[Cardenal]

I support, respect and admire what OBAP does.

And I am just a dumpy middle-aged white guy!

I think discussions such as these bring out the insecure, resentful and racist side of a lot of people. Oh! I forgot: also the mean, ignorant, and selfish traits of the same.

 

[Mkubwa]

This has to do with affirmative action in college admissions but I believe it cuts across the board.

It's a bit of a read (had to post in two sections) but Cohen gets right to the heart of the matter as far as I'm concerned.

-M

Race in University of Michigan Admissions
Carl Cohen, Professor of Philosophy
The University Record, February 25, 1997

The role of race in University admissions deserves our thoughtful reconsideration. We all want an admissions system that opens access equally to all, one that yields entering classes with a wide variety of talents and interests while remaining truly fair. These objectives do not require --- nor does law or morality permit --- the outright preferences we now give on the basis of race, or other ethnic categories for which race may here serve as shorthand.

I preface this critique with a personal note: There is no institution in the world, save only my family and my country, that I love more than the University of Michigan, to which I have devoted more than 40 years of my adult life. I have been honored to serve as chairman of our Academic Senate, and as chairman of the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan. But when this University, of which we are so proud, engages in deliberate discriminatory practices that it seeks to hide and then disguise, we on the faculty are right to be appalled. The motives behind such conduct may be honorable, but worthy aims cannot justify racially discriminatory devices. Racial discrimination is wrong; it always was and it always will be wrong. We are not permitted to dabble in it. Moreover, advantages given to persons of some races but not others do great damage --- to the University as a whole, but especially to those who were supposed to have been helped. In this sphere our proper "goal" is the complete elimination of all preferences by race; the proper "timetable" for the achievement of this goal is now.

Intellectual diversity --- the variety of opinions and perspectives that enrich and invigorate university life --- was recognized (in Regents v. Bakke in 1978) as an important aim. Using skin color as a proxy for intellectual diversity is morally problematic, relying as it does upon stereotypes --- but in any case the intention to use race as a proxy for potential contributions certainly cannot excuse deliberate discrimination by race. Spokespersons for our University, seeking the protection of the Bakke decision by echoing its words, repeatedly say that "we consider race among many other factors." This is true but highly deceptive. We use race in admissions as no other non-intellectual criteria are used. All applicants are classified by race first; we count applicants and acceptances by race at every turn; we establish "affirmative action goals" that can be satisfied only by racial numbers. Our admissions systems are, in sum, thoroughly saturated by racially preferential devices.

Justice Powell made it very clear in Bakke that an admissions system whose focus upon "diversity" amounts mainly to adjusting the racial proportions of its classes misconceives the diversity of which he was writing. He, the author of the defense of diversity upon which reliance is so commonly placed, declares unequivocally that race-based systems devised to advance racial proportionality are constitutionally invalid on their face.

The continuing unabashed use of ethnic preferences to achieve a higher proportion of one race or another --- success measured by percentage numbers carried to decimals --- is a flagrant violation of the principles laid down in the law of the land; readers who doubt this will receive a copy of the Bakke opinion from me upon request.

In that opinion, Justice Powell rejects the effort to defend the pursuit of racial percentages so long as "goals" but not "quotas" are employed. "This semantic distinction," he writes, "is beside the point." The point, Powell emphasizes in Bakke, is that any admissions device is discriminatory "whether described as a quota or a goal" if it uses "a line drawn on the basis of race and ethnic status." That is the fatal flaw of racial preference, the deliberate use of racial categories for disparate treatment. Moral principles condemn it; and as the Supreme Court of the United States has made perfectly clear, our Constitution and our laws forbid it.

Do we, at this University, draw such racial lines? Do we knowingly discriminate by race? Most certainly we do. The preferences we confer are not merely "plus factors" giving marginal benefit to minority applicants otherwise equal or nearly equal; they are major and systematic discriminatory devices designed to give very substantial advantages to applicants from some racial groups. University of Michigan records obtained using the Freedom of Information Act reveal that what is going on beneath euphemisms and obfuscation is, in a word, shocking. Some illustrations will exhibit the racial mischief we do:

First, the formal, written policies of our admissions system are explicitly discriminatory. In a document headed "Guidelines for All Terms of 1996," prepared by the Office of Undergraduate Admissions and marked "Confidential --- Internal Use Only," the responses to be given to applicants on first review are set forth in a grid, whose vertical axis is formed by the several categories of GPAs, and horizontal axis by the several categories of SAT (or ACT) scores. Every applicant falls into one of 90 resultant cells. Within each cell appear instructions regarding the letter of response counselors are directed to send to the applicant; but different instructions appear on two (or three) different lines within each cell, and at the top of the sheet appears this directive: "In General [sic] use the top row in each cell for majority applicants and the middle and bottom rows for underrepresented minorities."[emphasis added] Elsewhere in the document we learn that the phrase "underrepresented minorities" refers, in this document, to "American Indians, Black/African American, and Hispanic/Latino American."

How sharply these different responses discriminate by race may be seen from the following two examples among many:

1) Non-minority applicants with GPAs between 3.2-3.3 (B+) and with SAT scores of 1010-1080 (or ACT scores of 22-23) receive on first review the coded classification "R-TST" which results in a response letter coded R, for Reject. Minority applicants with precisely the same academic scores and credentials receive the coded classification A . . ACSP, which results in a response letter coded A, signifying Admit. Is this, or is it not, outright discrimination by race?

2) Non-minority applicants to the highly prized Premedical-Medical Program, INTEFLEX, are classified on first review A-INT (Admit) only if they have a GPA of 3.8 (out-of state) or 3.6 (in-state) and SAT scores of 1320+ or ACT scores of 30+. Minority applicants to the same INTEFLEX program are classified A-INT with GPA of 3.4 (in-state or out-of-state) and SAT scores of 1170+ or ACT scores of 26+. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 expressly forbids discrimination against any person in the United States "on the ground of race, color, or national origin . . . under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." Do these explicitly different admissions standards by race show, or do they not show, that we are violating that law?

Second, in actual decision-making as well as in formal policy we discriminate by race. This is proved beyond cavil by the numerical results of our admissions process, revealed in official documents from our Law School and Medical School, as well as from Undergraduate Admissions. Reports, again in the form of grids, show for each cell marked off by GPA (vertical axis) and test scores (horizontal axis) how many applicants there were in that cell, and of these how many were offered admission. So the percentage rate of admission for any cell may be readily determined. But separate grids are prepared for Blacks, and for whites, and for those of other ethnic groups, so the rate of admission for any cell or cells may also be calculated by race. Two illustrations of the racial disparities in admission rates disclosed will betoken the scale of our discriminatory practices:

1) A total of 526 applicants for undergraduate admission (according to the data provided for 1994) had GPAs between 2.80-2.99 (B-), and SAT scores of 1100-1390 (or ACT scores of 27-32). Of these, 48 were minorities and 478 were non-minorities. Of the non-minorities in this category, 12% (56) were offered admission. Of the minority applicants in this category, 100% (48) were offered admission. Similar disparities abound. Is this or is it not compelling evidence of discrimination by race?

2) Law School applicants with GPA between 3.25 and 3.49 (B+), and Law School Aptitude Test (LSAT) scores between 156 and 163 (good but not outstanding), were very numerous in 1995. Of the 238 "Caucasian Americans%quot; in that category only 7 were offered admission, 3%. Of the 17 African American applicants in that category 17 were offered admissions, 100%. Similar disparities abound here too. Is this not ineluctable evidence of racial discrimination practiced by an institution receving Federal financial assistance?

 

[Mkubwa]

Part 2:

Apparently anomalous admissions are often defended as no more than the result of attending to the merits and special talents of individual applicants. Reasonable people will agree that scores and averages are not the only things that ought to count, and that admissions need not be based entirely upon numerical credentials to be fair. But non-quantitative merits of character and talent are exhibited by individual applicants from every ethnic group; if considered for applicants of one color, fairness requires that they be considered for applicants of every color. The weighing of such individual characteristics, therefore, cannot possibly explain the patterns of racial discrimination that pervade our admissions systems.

If the quest for intellectual diversity cannot justify our racially discriminatory practices, might they be justified as compensation for injuries earlier done? No. A remedy for injury may be given justly only to those who have suffered that injury, not to other persons whose skin is of the same color. Wrongs done to some Blacks (and other minorities) cannot be redressed by giving favor to other Blacks, any more than wrongs done by some whites may be punished by penalizing other whites. Rights are possessed by persons, not by skin color groups. Where a remedy is due, it is due to the person damaged, not the group to which that person belongs.

Moreover, whether some person has in fact been injured in a way that justifies a racial remedy is a matter that does not lie in the competence of the University or its admissions officers to determine. And if some competent court were ever to find that unlawful racial injuries had been inflicted by our University, the authority to fix a compensatory remedy certainly would not rest in our hands. But of course the admission preferences we give were never designed to give remedy; they were designed to achieve racial proportionality.

Racial discrimination having this objective is morally indefensible. It will come to an end before long because most citizens of Michigan, when they learn what we are doing, will not tolerate it. The contrast between our public profession of "commitment to a policy of nondiscrimination," and our knowing but hidden practice of such discrimination, will provoke resentment and hostility gravely damaging to us. If we continue to engage in discriminatory practices, and to seek to deceive the public about them, we will not deserve to be excused.

 

[Mkubwa]

Justice Clarence Thomas:

In Adarand Constructors v. Peña (1995), Thomas commented on affirmative action: "I write separately,. . .to express my disagreement with the premise. . .that there is a racial paternalism exception to the principle of equal protection. . .That these programs may have been motivated, in part, by good intentions cannot provide refuge from the principle that under our Constitution, the government may not make distinctions on the basis of race. As far as the Constitution is concerned, it is irrelevant whether a government's racial classifications are drawn by those who wish to oppress a race or by those who have a sincere desire to help those thought to be disadvantaged. There can be no doubt that the paternalism that appears to lie at the heart of this program is at war with the principle of inherent equality that underlies and infuses our Constitution. See Declaration of Independence ('We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness')."

 

[SirFlyALot]

I support, respect and admire what OBAP does.

And I am just a dumpy middle-aged white guy!

I think discussions such as these bring out the insecure, resentful and racist side of a lot of people. Oh! I forgot: also the mean, ignorant, and selfish traits of the same.

This might be true in some cases. I don't know. However, when you join the debate especially to cast one side or the other in a disparaging light, please be specific and cite examples to support your claim. Why do you support, respect, and admire what OBAP does? Be detailed. Be logical. Use critical thinking. Otherwise, you're just another reed of grass blowing in the wind swayed by what sounds good and feels good to you at the moment.

So, it's not okay in your book to rail against the idea that one person might have an advantage over another because of the color of their skin? A person that stands on a principle like that is "insecure, resentful" and even "racist"...unless he or she favors a race that in your mind is acceptable? How about not favoring any race? To you, people who want to completely eliminate race as a consideration in our society are mean, ignorant, and selfish? Then, I guess you would throw people like Frederick Douglass, Rosa Parks, and Martin Luther King into that same boat? That is a sad, sad thing.