Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[aview1]

DCitrus9, first off, I did not PFT, nor am I going too, but NOT because I have a problem with PFT, I do not.

OK, now for conversation, asside from the fact that PFT is in some ways, POSSIBLY buying an interview, please explain to me how it HAS hurt the industry, NOT how it COULD hurt the industry. Because up untill now, I don't see how it has affected it in ANY WAY. PFT at airlines was around WAY before programs like eaglejet, gulfstream, and the mesa pace thing ever existed.

I'm willing to listen to your side of the argument, as long as it is civil.

 

[enigma]

Once again, I will take issue with this since I had many friends PFT to get hired by a regional. All were helo pilots with several thousands of hours of flight time, however, the airlines would not hire them unless either they went out and buzzed around in a Cessna for a thousand hours or they PFT'ed. Easy choice for them. They had the hours, the experience, and they had "paid their dues", yet the system was against them, therefore, they improvised, adapted, and overcame.

I thought we buried this "they had already paid there dues so PFT was OK crap" a couple of years ago. You seem to indicate that PFT was just another way to "imporvise, adapt and overcome". Well that's a bunch of horse hockey. I don't make any excuse for the prejudice against rotorheads, but to PFT as a way to overcome the prejudice was not benificial to the profession. The best pilot I ever shared a cockpit with was a retired Naval Officer rotorhead. He too, couldn't go straight from the service to AA, but he didn't buy an F-ing job. He took a job and got himself up to the qualifications necessary to get a better job. (then he quit and started flying a Jetranger in the desert because he really didn't want to fly a bus for eight legs a day. )

Are your buddies that PFT'd proud to have acquired a job based upon the size of their checkbook?

How many of the guys that did the mil. helo to PFT airline thing are currently flying at a major airline? What percentage would you say that number is?


enigma

 

[bobbysamd]

Why I refused to P-F-T

BobbySamD is man whose comment I respect. However when I think about how he did everything he could, ratings, cfi-ing, networking and pounding the pavement to no avail. Yet I have met airline pilots who I would consider to be half as knowledgeable as Bobby yet they have jobs because they were willing to PFT. I must conclude that if Bobby would have PFT he would be a Capt on the line imparting his knowledge to FO (future Capts) rather leaving it in the vacuum of this space. This coupled with the recent capital I have gained puts me in
a dilema.

Don't mistake me I am glad you are here Bobby but I desire to fly so much that I would like to give it one last shot before walking away, and PFT may be my last ditch effort.

First off, thanks for your kind comments and for taking the time to read my posts. I'll come to the point about why I refused to entertain P-F-T.

P-F-T boils down to being an employment issue. Nothing more, nothing less. P-F-Ting starts off your relationship with your new employer on the wrong foot - for you. P-F-T shows that you are willing to accept less than fair treatment from your P-F-T employer; that you are willing to bend over and take it up the ass. He sees that you have that willingness because you have already shown that you are willing to buy the job. That is absolutely, positively not the proper relationship to establish with an employer.

And, sorry, although being a pilot is a great job which still carries a certain amount of prestige (I know some people here will argue), the long and short of it is that piloting is still just a job. Just because you are a pilot does not mean that you are less-deserving of proper treatment. By P-F-Ting you show that you are willing to put up with less than proper treatment.

One learns to appreciate fair treatment from an employer after being in the workforce for years and suffering through periods of unfair employer treatment. I do not believe that fair employee treatment accrues from P-F-T. And that is basically why I would not P-F-T. I have raised issues about fraud and bad faith potential, training conflicts of interest, and blackball potential elsewhere.

I second C77MD80's comments in their entirety. I urge you to read them carefully. He establishes a prima facie case about blackball potential.

 

[bobbysamd]

No, you didn't, Mr. Time

01:20 and no Bobby.

Guess I lost this one.

It took me a while to get to this discussion.

 

[enigma]

please explain to me how it HAS hurt the industry, NOT how it COULD hurt the industry.

Simple economics my friend. When a manager is offered a resource at below market rates, the market rates go down until the supplier increases his rates. By PFT'ing, your buddies were driving industry wide wages down. If you don't believe that, ask a UAL Captain if he has taken a pay cut lately. If pay rates were not low becase of people willing to work for nothing, the carriers would have had to cut something other than pilot wages.

Now for the proof. I witnessed it first hand at Mesa in 1992. We had an unofficial inhouse association (union). The pilot reps would meet with Larry (Risley, the owner), Grady (Reed, the VP of flight ops) and Johnny O (Ornstein, the finance guy) in order to attempt to improve our circumstances. The answer always came back the same, "Gentlemen, we have a stack of resumes five feet thick from people who are willing to pay us for a job, you're lucky we keep you at all. No way you're getting a raise."
I put that in quotes, but it's a paraphrase. To Larry's credit, I don't think that they ever took a PFT'rs money in even exchange for a job. But they dang sure did keep our pay low. I ended up quiting because they were about to upgrade me and I couldn't afford to move so that I could be a LAX based 1900 Captain for 1600 bucks a month. (less than I was making as a senior Brasilia FO in a real cheap cost of living base)


enigma

 

[46Driver]

I thought we buried this "they had already paid there dues so PFT was OK crap" a couple of years ago. You seem to indicate that PFT was just another way to "imporvise, adapt and overcome". Well that's a bunch of horse hockey. I don't make any excuse for the prejudice against rotorheads, but to PFT as a way to overcome the prejudice was not benificial to the profession. The best pilot I ever shared a cockpit with was a retired Naval Officer rotorhead. He too, couldn't go straight from the service to AA, but he didn't buy an F-ing job. He took a job and got himself up to the qualifications necessary to get a better job. (then he quit and started flying a Jetranger in the desert because he really didn't want to fly a bus for eight legs a day. )

Are your buddies that PFT'd proud to have acquired a job based upon the size of their checkbook?

How many of the guys that did the mil. helo to PFT airline thing are currently flying at a major airline? What percentage would you say that number is?


enigma

The system is stacked against them. What do you expect them to do - go buzz around in Cessna for 3 years? They already have several thousand hours of multi-engine turbine, glass cockpit time. As for qualifications, it is a moving target depending on when you got hired. I got hired (PFT was not required in 2000) with only 200 fixed wing hours into a glass cockpit jet so obviously it can be done. Likewise, the majority of fixed wing primary instructors in the Navy and Marine Corps are helo bubbas with only 100 hours of fixed time - a few hours later, they are out teaching in 700 HP turboprops instruments, fams, formation, and acrobatics so 25+ years of Navy training blows DCitrus's argument away.... (feel free to go to www.aptap.org and disparage helo guys, especially that 1000 hours of hot air balloon time quote, and see the response you get....)

Are they proud that they PFT'ed? They honestly don't care one way or the other. They wish they didn't have to so they could save the money they earned in the military but that's life.

I have no idea how many are at the majors. My last CO is flying for American and many are regional captains (most of my peer group has only been in the industry for 4 to 6 years so that question is not relevant.)

 

[Typhoon1244]

I'm confused.

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

What about an outfit that requires a "training contract" with subsequent reimbursement? Do you guys still call that "PFT?" Is a guy who "PFT'd" at ASA in '98 and got his money back just as reprehensible as a guy who bought right-seat time at Gulfstream, etc.?

 

[enigma]

The system is stacked against them. What do you expect them to do - go buzz around in Cessna for 3 years? ...........
I have no idea how many are at the majors. My last CO is flying for American and many are regional captains (most of my peer group has only been in the industry for 4 to 6 years so that question is not relevant.)

46, The qualifications of military helo drivers is not the point in question. I don't know of any real pilot who would argue against your flying skills. But having 2000 hours of military helo time doesn't justify buying a job.

How many of your buddies would have bought a job at a commuter/regional had they known that the big money major was never going to be an option to them due to economic forces? I have yet to meet a pilot, no less a PFT'r, who took/bought into a regional level job with the expectation that said regional job was the top of the career ladder. The question is absolutely relevant, and you made my point. You've all been in the business 4 to 6 years, and I'll bet that not a blinking one of you expected to sit at a commuter for more than three of those years.

Another question, what will you say when the next batch of wannabees comes in and undercuts your wages? What if Branson gets the ok to bring in low paid eastern european pilots, will you say that's ok? After all, most of them were once highly trained and skilled military pilots, and they only want to get ahead. It would be unfair for Branson to have to follow our rules, after all he is a highly experienced airline owner, isn't he?

enigma

 

[enigma]

I'm confused.

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

Typhoon, you're just playing with words. You know good and well that the term "PFT" stands for buying a job. Management termed it PFT so as to attempt to sugar coat reality. It is and always was, buying a job. I've posted enough clarifications (for the last five years) to ensure that you know the truth.

regards,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Typhoon, you're just playing with words. You know good and well...[etc.]

Easy, easy! I was not "playing with words." Not everybody's been here as long as you have, and I was trying to clarify the thread for others who may be asking the same question.

(Jesus! Have a beer...)

Edit: Besides, what do you care? This whole thing is flamebait anyway...

 

[Flying Illini]

Have you tried Airnet or any other night freight operation? I know airnet is hiring and you may have a chance with the hours that you have. I know someone who got hired with less time and someone who got hired with 1500 hrs. Maybe use some of that inheritance towards a few hundred more hours. Seriously, I don't think you've scrapped bottom looking for a job. Good luck.

 

[DCitrus9]

aview1, try reading for comprehension.
I did not say they will scab.
I said it is a good indicator of the type of person who will scab. I stand behind that statement. Someone who is more concerned with themselves, the rest of the world be dammed, can justify anything to themselves. This includes crossing a picket line.
Enigma summed up the consequences nicely. If you need more, try an economics class.

 

[aview1]

DCitrus9, I have an MBA, but thanks for stating your opinion.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

P-F-T means just that, but it is also a term of art. Clearly, if you pay for training, you are buying a job.

What about an outfit that requires a "training contract" with subsequent reimbursement? Do you guys still call that "PFT?"

I do not have a problem with training contracts, as long as paying money up-front to the employer is not required.

Is a guy who "PFT'd" at ASA in '98 and got his money back just as reprehensible as a guy who bought right-seat time at Gulfstream, etc.?

Well, he did have to remit money as a term of employment, didn't he? Once more, P-F-T, pay-for-job, or whatever you call it is an employment issue.

 

[CDNJetPilot]

economics

Isn't this simple economics? Too many pilots (and want to be pilots) and not enough jobs?

People will do whatever it takes to gain an advantage over the competition. I don't agree with PFT but it seems like the trend in an industry that is looking for quite a few hours for entry level work. If someone has worked hard for their money and they want to buy hours in an airplane then I can't look down upon them for it. I know many people (doctors/other professionals) who pay for all of their rental time etc. If they should now get a flying job b/c they bought all their time from hard earned dollars who am I to condemn them?

I also have friends who are airline captains today (with regionals) that started via PFT and these are great guys. Some of the sharpest guys I've met. Again, their thinking was it's a great way to build up the necessary time to get a right seat job.

Let's face it. Having a fresh CPL and 250 hours doesn't cut it anymore after 9-11, minus the very lucky few who can find a job with those hours. Insurance minimums have changed everything, along with a large chunk of the workforce being laid off. I hear this complaint from many new CPLs about how to bridge the gap from 250 hours to 500+ hours, or make that a 1000 hours in todays environment for that magic first right seat job.

I'm not a commercial pilot by any means and this is just my take on whats going on with the industry. I'll probably be flamed by some but it's only my opinion.