Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[Los]

Why shouldn't I PFT?

Background:

I have spent 4+ years in this biz. I finished college and yeilded a money making job to follow my dream to fly and begin my training as a pilot. This was just at the end of the roaring 90's when things were looking very optomistic in the Aviation Biz.

I have begged, borrowed, and scrapped up every dime I could to put into this career, waiting tables by day and bartending at night to pay for ratings up to the commerical ticket.

I initially bought some hours ASEL and AMEL to try to accelerate my entry into a job, since there was so much opportunity at the time. Despite my efforts I always came up short of the right amount of flight hours needed to secure the job (1200 + some magic number of multi). After this I decided to pick up my CFI and build more time and experience. I had hoped to use the money from my CFI-A to feed myself and pay for CFI-I and and MEI.

No sooner than I got my CFI-A along came 9-11. Since that I have moved around continually and in pursuit of employment as a CFI and still have netted less than 200 hrs dual given.
To further aggravate this situation each site I went to had no shortage of cronies who were more than willing to remind me that I would be last of the last to get an opportunity for dual given in the multi, while at the same time professing to rapidly train me and get my MEI ticket punched (what on earth for if I can't use it?)

Forging forward through the toughest of times I took the pennies from my budets and used them to buy as much additional flight time as I could, all ASEL, block time, and shared. My thoughts were that as the folks with weak stomachs were leaving the biz I could load up on flight time at a cheaper rate due to low demand for A/C rentals.

At this point I am all pooped out. Having an accounting background from college I have
planned to begin saving for the golden years at age 25, and absolutely no later than 30. I recently just came into some money (property inheritance) and want to use it wisely.

I have long stood aside those who are against PFT, both by reading this board as well as talking with others pursuing the same goals as me. (Even though I bought most of my flight time ASEL and AMEL recips, I do not consider this PFT).

My current stance is that I am just about ready to turn my back on this dismal money sucking career. My last chance is if I can PFT my way into the industry and start generating some income, otherwise I will have to leave.

If no job appears in the next couple of months then I plan to jump into the financail world with this Springs college grads (something that maybe I should have done 4 years ago). This way I can start saving rather than perpetually spending every dime I come across. Ideally if I am successful enough I would buy an ASEL and fly it for pleasure and CFI from time to time as the opportunity presents itself.

Before passing judgement consider the two facts below and ask yourself (honestly) would you do it if you had the money to spare.

FACT 1:
Then money I have spent buying 800+ hours ASEL/AMEL recips rivals most of the PFT I have seen to date. My moral stance was always the justification for not PFTing earlier even though it would have made more economical sense.

FACT 2:
BobbySamD is man whose comment I respect. However when I think about how he did everything he could, ratings, cfi-ing, networking and pounding the pavement to no avail. Yet I have met airline pilots who I would consider to be half as knowledgeable as Bobby yet they have jobs because they were willing to PFT. I must conclude that if Bobby would have PFT he would be a Capt on the line imparting his knowledge to FO (future Capts) rather leaving it in the vacuum of this space. This coupled with the recent capital I have gained puts me in
a dilema.

Don't mistake me I am glad you are here Bobby but I desire to fly so much that I would like to give it one last shot before walking away, and PFT may be my last ditch effort.

For anyone who has stuck with this post long enough to reach this point please fire away love it, hate it, lets hear your thoughts. Most helpful though would be some of the
unintended not so obviouse bad consequences of PFT. I am not really worried about the one or two guys who wouldn't hire me if they were chief of pilots at some Major because the found out that I PFT. In reality I would love to sue the heck out of them, as I am sure this practcice would be illegal.

touche.

 

[Timebuilder]

My current stance is that I am just about ready to turn my back on this dismal money sucking career. My last chance is if I can PFT my way into the industry and start generating some income, otherwise I will have to leave.

It sounds like you are just a few feet behind me.

Instead of just walking away, why not continue to instruct when you have time, and fly on your own terms for the sheer enjoyment of it? There are others your age who started earlier, and they are your main competition. They aren't going to go away. Neither are the 40 year olds who are furloughed. They will sell plywood or whatever to make it to the place they want; maybe not with the same carrier, and probably not for the money they expected, but they will, for the most part, stick to it.

I have know several accountants, lawyers, doctors, and engineers who love to fly. They also love being home, love the good money, love the ability to call the shots, and love the fact that they are not a cog in a large and unforgiving machine.

Now don't get me wrong, many pilots love their current job, and they are fortunate to have it. If an airline job is the only satisfactory outcome, then continue to work dilligently. If you are at all unsure, and I think you might be, then plan B might be just the ticket.

 

[C77MD80]

Los,

Illegal to not hire someone because of PFT? Ever go to an interview and have absolutely no idea why you didn't get the job? I used to sit on an interview panel at a large regional airline and whenever I and a lot of the others on the panel would come across pilots that were involved with PFT, we would basically deny them the opportunity for employment. We didn't have to state a reason. At my company fortunately we were pilots hiring pilots. We wanted people that didn't short-cut the process by working hard and sticking it out in real flying situations. You may have to move to get your job but right now there are plenty of operators willing to pay you squat to fly for them and unfortunately that is bad enough but PFT? Unexceptable!!

 

[wingnutt]

hold up a sec...

...youve bought 800 hours already,

Then money I have spent buying 800+ hours ASEL/AMEL recips rivals most of the PFT I have seen to date

...and CFI'd about 200 hours since 9-11,

No sooner than I got my CFI-A along came 9-11....and still have netted less than 200 hrs dual given.

...and cant figure out why youre not competitive???

In reality I would love to sue the heck out of them, as I am sure this practcice would be illegal.

...and im not even gonna touch that one

 

[46Driver]

Clock's on. Anybody taking bets on how soon Bobby will post?

 

[Timebuilder]

I'd say 00:30 Zulu at the latest.

 

[Simon Says]

Clock's on. Anybody taking bets on how soon Bobby will post?

LOL.....this guy has me rollin'

I bettin' bobby will be on sucked in on this one in the next two hours.

 

[skyking1976]

LOL.....this guy has me rollin'

I bettin' bobby will be on sucked in on this one in the next two hours.

Me too. I think he gets home from work in about 1 hour from now. This should be good.

 

[enigma]

If you really care about the subject, run a search of this forum. If you don't, go ahead and PFT.

I will offer a little advice. PFT did allow a very few pilots, who's timing was correct, to gain the experience needed to get a good job. PFT is only viable when there are union jobs at the top of the ladder that have been insulated from the downward wage pressure that practices such as PFT exert. If you can PFT at the beginning of an upswing, progress rapidly, then get on at a union major that is strong enough to avoid furlough during the next downturn, then PFT may work for you. Otherwise, you will find yourself stuck at a PFT airline for a long time. Some of those who PFT'd in the mid nineties at carriers such as Comair, and stayed there instead of going to a legacy carrier, would say that PFT was successful. They still have an OK job. As much as I hate to admit it, the ones at Comair have more than an OK job, as it would seem that Comair pays more per seat than LCC's such as Spirit (my employer).

But if you PFT'd, moved up and now find yourself furloughed from USAirways, with your only job possibility one at a low paying J4J regional that pays wages commensurate with PFT, you might not be feeling very good.

The bottom line with PFT is that it draws down wages. As long as times are good, it might work for some. Ultimately, it hurts more than it helps.

Caveat, when I rail against PFT, I am specifically speaking of pay for JOB, not truly buying training.

enigma

 

[Timebuilder]

01:20 and no Bobby.

Guess I lost this one.

 

[DCitrus9]

To parrott enigma; it hurts the profession and reduces wages.

Los said " My last chance is if I can PFT my way into the industry and start generating some income..." which is contradictory. If this job is for a required pilot, then the operator MUST have a warm body for that seat. If he wants to operate his airplane he must hire a pilot. Pilots get paid money. Sooo, why on earth would you take away a paying pilot job, while also paying said operator for the "privilege" of flying? It is difficult to negotiate a fair market wage when some people are willing to pay to work (that's about ten steps worse than slavery!!)

Your specific training on this aircraft is a price of doing business that the operator should pay. Investing money in your training to be more competitive, e.g. type rating and all ratings so far, are not PFT. Paying FSI for a type rating as a condition of employment could be seen as a gray area, while paying Jimbo to learn ya' about a King Air 90 is shady and should be avoided.

Unfortunately, there will be plenty of scum to fill those seats. I wish that a protest against PFT would make a difference, but am realistic enough to know it won't.

On the other hand, PFT does give us a good indicator of who will be the future scabs. The ones who will step on their brother's back to further their career.

 

[46Driver]

Unfortunately, there will be plenty of scum to fill those seats. I wish that a protest against PFT would make a difference, but am realistic enough to know it won't.

On the other hand, PFT does give us a good indicator of who will be the future scabs. The ones who will step on their brother's back to further their career.

Once again, I will take issue with this since I had many friends PFT to get hired by a regional. All were helo pilots with several thousands of hours of flight time, however, the airlines would not hire them unless either they went out and buzzed around in a Cessna for a thousand hours or they PFT'ed. Easy choice for them. They had the hours, the experience, and they had "paid their dues", yet the system was against them, therefore, they improvised, adapted, and overcame.

 

[de727ups]

PFT

"Before passing judgement consider the two facts below and ask yourself (honestly) would you do it if you had the money to spare."

Honestly....I wouldn't have done it. Bobby will tell you the same thing. I think those that do PFT (Gulfstream and TAB style) either are uneducated about the possible results or just don't care. In spite of that, it's your decision to make. All of the Continential pilots at the Gulfstream website who recommend the program are scabs. Does that bother anyone?

 

[aview1]

DCitrus9, that has got to be the most idiotic logic I have ever heard. A PFTer in SOME ways, POSSIBLY, has bought some portion of his or her interview, granted, but to say they will SCAB because they PFT'ed is outright STUPID.

I know ex-PFTers at SEVERAL airlines, and they ALL are staunch Union supporters. Every single one of them. Even the ones who are at non-union airlines.

 

[DCitrus9]

I would say they fit my description perfectly. They decided to hurt everyone else to help themselvese. All for the sake of a shortcut.
Because really, who needs that fixed wing time anyway? I have 1000 hours of hot air ballon time, just hire me straight into the jet! I don't care how much helo time you've got, with only a couple hundred hours of fixed wing time you are still a newbie.

 

[aview1]

DCitrus9, first off, I did not PFT, nor am I going too, but NOT because I have a problem with PFT, I do not.

OK, now for conversation, asside from the fact that PFT is in some ways, POSSIBLY buying an interview, please explain to me how it HAS hurt the industry, NOT how it COULD hurt the industry. Because up untill now, I don't see how it has affected it in ANY WAY. PFT at airlines was around WAY before programs like eaglejet, gulfstream, and the mesa pace thing ever existed.

I'm willing to listen to your side of the argument, as long as it is civil.

 

[enigma]

Once again, I will take issue with this since I had many friends PFT to get hired by a regional. All were helo pilots with several thousands of hours of flight time, however, the airlines would not hire them unless either they went out and buzzed around in a Cessna for a thousand hours or they PFT'ed. Easy choice for them. They had the hours, the experience, and they had "paid their dues", yet the system was against them, therefore, they improvised, adapted, and overcame.

I thought we buried this "they had already paid there dues so PFT was OK crap" a couple of years ago. You seem to indicate that PFT was just another way to "imporvise, adapt and overcome". Well that's a bunch of horse hockey. I don't make any excuse for the prejudice against rotorheads, but to PFT as a way to overcome the prejudice was not benificial to the profession. The best pilot I ever shared a cockpit with was a retired Naval Officer rotorhead. He too, couldn't go straight from the service to AA, but he didn't buy an F-ing job. He took a job and got himself up to the qualifications necessary to get a better job. (then he quit and started flying a Jetranger in the desert because he really didn't want to fly a bus for eight legs a day. )

Are your buddies that PFT'd proud to have acquired a job based upon the size of their checkbook?

How many of the guys that did the mil. helo to PFT airline thing are currently flying at a major airline? What percentage would you say that number is?


enigma

 

[bobbysamd]

Why I refused to P-F-T

BobbySamD is man whose comment I respect. However when I think about how he did everything he could, ratings, cfi-ing, networking and pounding the pavement to no avail. Yet I have met airline pilots who I would consider to be half as knowledgeable as Bobby yet they have jobs because they were willing to PFT. I must conclude that if Bobby would have PFT he would be a Capt on the line imparting his knowledge to FO (future Capts) rather leaving it in the vacuum of this space. This coupled with the recent capital I have gained puts me in
a dilema.

Don't mistake me I am glad you are here Bobby but I desire to fly so much that I would like to give it one last shot before walking away, and PFT may be my last ditch effort.

First off, thanks for your kind comments and for taking the time to read my posts. I'll come to the point about why I refused to entertain P-F-T.

P-F-T boils down to being an employment issue. Nothing more, nothing less. P-F-Ting starts off your relationship with your new employer on the wrong foot - for you. P-F-T shows that you are willing to accept less than fair treatment from your P-F-T employer; that you are willing to bend over and take it up the ass. He sees that you have that willingness because you have already shown that you are willing to buy the job. That is absolutely, positively not the proper relationship to establish with an employer.

And, sorry, although being a pilot is a great job which still carries a certain amount of prestige (I know some people here will argue), the long and short of it is that piloting is still just a job. Just because you are a pilot does not mean that you are less-deserving of proper treatment. By P-F-Ting you show that you are willing to put up with less than proper treatment.

One learns to appreciate fair treatment from an employer after being in the workforce for years and suffering through periods of unfair employer treatment. I do not believe that fair employee treatment accrues from P-F-T. And that is basically why I would not P-F-T. I have raised issues about fraud and bad faith potential, training conflicts of interest, and blackball potential elsewhere.

I second C77MD80's comments in their entirety. I urge you to read them carefully. He establishes a prima facie case about blackball potential.

 

[bobbysamd]

No, you didn't, Mr. Time

01:20 and no Bobby.

Guess I lost this one.

It took me a while to get to this discussion.

 

[enigma]

please explain to me how it HAS hurt the industry, NOT how it COULD hurt the industry.

Simple economics my friend. When a manager is offered a resource at below market rates, the market rates go down until the supplier increases his rates. By PFT'ing, your buddies were driving industry wide wages down. If you don't believe that, ask a UAL Captain if he has taken a pay cut lately. If pay rates were not low becase of people willing to work for nothing, the carriers would have had to cut something other than pilot wages.

Now for the proof. I witnessed it first hand at Mesa in 1992. We had an unofficial inhouse association (union). The pilot reps would meet with Larry (Risley, the owner), Grady (Reed, the VP of flight ops) and Johnny O (Ornstein, the finance guy) in order to attempt to improve our circumstances. The answer always came back the same, "Gentlemen, we have a stack of resumes five feet thick from people who are willing to pay us for a job, you're lucky we keep you at all. No way you're getting a raise."
I put that in quotes, but it's a paraphrase. To Larry's credit, I don't think that they ever took a PFT'rs money in even exchange for a job. But they dang sure did keep our pay low. I ended up quiting because they were about to upgrade me and I couldn't afford to move so that I could be a LAX based 1900 Captain for 1600 bucks a month. (less than I was making as a senior Brasilia FO in a real cheap cost of living base)


enigma