Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[Los]

Quote by BobbySamD

"
I will not bring up P-F-T companies where they are put into the right seat at 250 hours or 500 hours thereafter, and let's not compare them to foreign airline training. As you are well aware, foreign airlines place many 300-hour pilots in right seats of DC-9s and 737s. However, these pilots have been hand-picked to become pilots and receive extremely high-quality, intense training from their company school and/or a high-quality contractor. Not a moment is wasted. Compare it to military pilot training. These folks are extremely well-prepared to be airline pilots at 300 hours. Not the same as P-F-Ters.
"

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I came back and paid a visit because a friend told that my topic was still abuzz.


Based on Bobby's definition pilots like 46 and 47 driver ARE qualified and shouldn't be questioned if they PFTd. Not only were they hand picked by Uncle Sugar but they have 2000+ operational flight hours to prove they had 'the right stuff.' Sometimes even combat evolved. Keep in mind these are folks that have ACTUAL military training. Not 'military-like' or 'similar to the military' as in the quote above.

Add this to what I mentioned before

GI BILL ( 60%) + Gulfstream CFI (50%) = 0% PFJ/PFT



Interestingly enough this site seems to be CFI heavy, which explains the total bias against PFT. Other sites: student, military, etc seem to have a more even tempered attitude toward the subject. Additionally review the following.

CFI 250 hrs + student 0 hrs = 125 hrs per seat in the cockpit

PFT 500 hrs + Capt 1500 hrs (min) = 1000 hrs per seat in the cockpit

looks like the pot calling the kettle black as far as who is qualified.



Now to play devils Advocate. I did research beyond this site on PFT and discovered that Teamsters tried to get Gulfstreamers to strike a few years back. I guess they didn't know that they never had a chance since the FOs would dare not screw themselves out of their own money by striking, thus leaving less that half the target audience available for strike. Now I dont know exactly where you draw the line between strike and freedom of speech but it must really suck to not be able to strike no matter how dire your working conditions are. Once again this is the kind of stuff I was looking for to make my ultimate decision not PFT, attitudes against PFT were much less of a factor. Realizing how powerless these PFTers and their Capts are gives me a devilish Sh!t eating grin, see para below.

Voss,

thanks for the info, good ideas however I am no longer willing to put money into aviation.... for the moment. I have now got my eyes set on an MBA. Can you guess what my thesis will be?

A low cost airline operation. I have got one to two years to tweak the details but it will be based around FOs paying the Capts salary (or the major portion of) this should keep operating cost lower and profits higher for me and my partners. As demonstrated above I doubt I will ever need strike insurance.

PFT is after all 4 me, how ironic...

Any savy investors out there? Keep an eye on this space.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and military helo drivers

Based on Bobby's definition pilots like 46 and 47 driver ARE qualified and shouldn't be questioned if they PFTd. Not only were they hand picked by Uncle Sugar but they have 2000+ operational flight hours to prove they had 'the right stuff.' Sometimes even combat evolved. Keep in mind these are folks that have ACTUAL military training. Not 'military-like' or 'similar to the military' as in the quote above.

What you overlook in your reasoning is while such folks are military-trained and combat-qualified is they have little or no experience in fixed-wing aircraft. They need airplane hours before they are qualified for airplane jobs. They have other avenues besides P-F-T to build whatever modicum of fixed-wing time they need for the airlines.

I had a student at MAPD who was also a new Army Reseve helo pilot who was going through the complete program from zero airplane time.

There are plenty of military helicopter pilots who instructed in airplanes, flew cargo or corporate, or whatever, before the airlines hired them. Moreover, opinion varies among the regionals regarding helo time. Some regionals have no problem with it as long as a helo applicant can offer minimal airplane time. Others will not consider any helicopter time at all. I believe the specific companies who accept all helicopter time were addressed elsewhere in other threads.

Finally, there is no total anti-P-F-T bias on the board. There is plenty of pro-P-F-T sentiment on this board, with much of it coming from flight instructors.

Good luck with your M.B.A.

 

[46Driver]

Just out of curiousity, how many fixed wing hours do you think I need before I am "qualified" to fly airplanes? Somehow, I don't think you and I are going to agree.

 

[bobbysamd]

Fixed-wing hours for helo pilots

Just out of curiousity, how many fixed wing hours do you think I need before I am "qualified" to fly airplanes? Somehow, I don't think you and I are going to agree.

I am not the one who sets minimum qualifications; the airlines and insurance companies set them. That is an issue to take up with those entities.

Having said that, as far as I, personally, am concerned, having enough fixed-wing to add your airplane and multi ratings onto your Commercial or ATP is good enough for me, and should be good enough for them.

 

[CFI'er]

If PFT programs were that bad, insurance companies would not write policies that cover that PFT airline. Lets face the facts and let those with more money than brains pay the PFT fees. Maybe flight schools can have internship programs where they have the students wash and clean school aircraft for a promise of a "guaranteed" interview.

I'm still waiting for the legals to wake up and sue the "Academies" for false ads that promise the moon and in reality, give nothing but smoke & mirrors while management (school) LOL all the way to the bank.

 

[deadstick]

I just put a plackard on the glareshield "DON'T HOVER THE AIRPLANE" and all was fine. Fling-wings fly an ILS just like the airplanes. We flew them at 90 kts in the -58 and I hear Blackhawks are really stable on the GS at 120. Left is left, right is right, etc. etc. No difference. Heck, you fly with the right hand and control power with the left -- perfect for a future FO.

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management. There is not “just trim it out” and relax. In an autorotation, you have about 2 seconds to react before the rotor rpm decays to the point that you ship has the lift of a brick. The VSI is pegged between 12-1600 fpm (with good rotor rpm) and with most profiles below 1000 AGL, you do the math, there’s no time to ask “What’s that?” In the OH-58, there are 42 actions with 63 memory items that have to be executed before referring to the checklist (if time permits). An hour banging around the pattern in a 152 is more valuable? Give me a break!

 

[enigma]

I just put a plackard on the glareshield "DON'T HOVER THE AIRPLANE" and all was fine. Fling-wings fly an ILS just like the airplanes. We flew them at 90 kts in the -58 and I hear Blackhawks are really stable on the GS at 120. Left is left, right is right, etc. etc. No difference. Heck, you fly with the right hand and control power with the left -- perfect for a future FO.

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management. There is not “just trim it out” and relax. In an autorotation, you have about 2 seconds to react before the rotor rpm decays to the point that you ship has the lift of a brick. The VSI is pegged between 12-1600 fpm (with good rotor rpm) and with most profiles below 1000 AGL, you do the math, there’s no time to ask “What’s that?” In the OH-58, there are 42 actions with 63 memory items that have to be executed before referring to the checklist (if time permits). An hour banging around the pattern in a 152 is more valuable? Give me a break!

Methinks you rotorheads protest too much. You guys react like someone has accused you of incompetance. Remember, this thread was about paying for a JOB. Not about competance of helo pilots. Ya'll are way too touchy.

But since you offered up on the subject, I'll ask you this: Why would a well qualified candidate, BUY a job?

enigma

 

[Los]

Bobby,

your training as a radio host must have allowed you to develop and harbor the stearnest opinions, I can't seem to get you to cop a plea on the pft issue, good on you, however I must side with 46 Driver on this one.

Not even in my most curious moments have I ever been willing to part with the exorbitant premiums associated with helicopter flight, so I will have to rely on testament from folks like DEADSTICK and other helicopter pilots I have spoken with.

Specifically what I have heard most about helicopters suggest that pound for pound they are much harder to fly than their FW equivalents (ie mtow, passenger load, max speeds, etc). One helicopter pilot explained it to me this way: A jet is like a 10-speed bike, fast, foward moving, very stable and easy to operate while a helicopter is more like uni-cycle, much more maneuverable (fore-aft-stationary), moves much slower, however a total chore to operate.

Just as most unicycle riders could easily transition to a 10-speed bike with little effort (think complex to simple) the helicopter pilot should easily transition to FW flight in a similar fashion since the net effect is just a reduction in workload (aerodynamic/airwork, systems, procedures, etc).

Consider the following:
(1) Chopper Pilot w FW ratings Multi-Comm or ATP and B-737 IOE complete on 1st revenue flight
(2) B-737 Pilot with recent rotary lic (hrs in cat similar to IOE for 737) on first solo or crew flight

which A/C would you board. If #2 is your answer I would suggest you update you will, insurance policies, etc. After all compare tasks such as hovering, formation flight, gunnery, tricky lunar landing, etc to raising gear handle, switching on Auto-pilot at 1000', Autothrottle on the takeoff (TOGA), twisting heading, alt, speed bugs, arming and executing flight plans and I think that you will find that one skill set heavily outwieghs the other with the helicopter pilot in favor.

Moreover, most if not all military helicopters have higher cruising/max speeds than the GA aircraft we CFI with yet the complexity of these Choppers are some orders of maginitude greater. Since these helicopters are heavy and turbine the either must require a type or operating specifications that hold the PIC to rules and procedure commensurate with that of a type rating holder. Any PIC of an aircraft which requires a type is inherently an instructor (who else is going to teach the FO after IOE). Add to all of this the mission profiles these guys fly: attacking, getting shot at, lifting heavy objects, landing on boat tops between other spinning helicopters, flying as low as possible in the pitch dark, etc and compare this to spinning around the pattern or going from A2B in a C-1x2 with ATC holding your hand guiding you along the whole route
and you have to wonder what on earth would a military helicopter gain CFIing in a C-1x2???? wtf over

Actually I would frown on the practice if they do this just to gain FW flight time, because instructing is a job better suited for someone who enjoys it and is happy cultivating and molding their student, rather than someone just trying to fill their books to get to the next job. In my opinion I would much rather see these guys PFT and move on to do what they are best at 'precision flying.' I have spent many nights (except those right after 9-11) safe and secure in the comfort of my bed thanks to the efforts of 46 and 47 Driver, why not continue to capitalize on this by having these Marines and Soldiers up front in the cockpits of our commercial airliners knowing that if any 2-bit terror-mite crosses their paths they will be dealt with in a righteous manner. (Geez I am feeling patriotic enough to seek out the nearest recruiter

CFIer,

your comments ring true, insurance companies are ultr-frugal with their fiscal policies, I am sure that they are aware of PFT and would assign cost prohibitive premiums if they felt the least bit worried about it and how it would affect daily operations. Skeptics review my earlier thread on experience per seat in the cockpit pft vs cfi, and you will see why its no wonder that insurance rates for the cfi entrepreneur with his own aircraft have gone up so high that these guys have been forced out of business and left to the whim of fbos and flight academies.

Even better is your 2nd para 'more money than brains'. If pft is bad then the old saying 'a fool and his money are soon parted' or at leat caveat emptor 'buyer beware' will ring true. Based on risk vs gain, you could do much worse in Vegas, on the stock market, or even in a new sports car purchase.

Enigma

view my earlier threads, I have illustrated at least one way to Gulfstream it without spending a penny. Would you still consider this PFT??? If so I want to de-license your doc because he failed to note that you are a blind as a bat.

Bottom line is that there are times and situations where PFT may be good, even the toughest critic will acknowledge this if he reads my post objectively. As we all know the majority of cases PFT is bad, I can think of a couple of my former students to justify this, but to blast this thing as a wholesale evil just because you were lucky enough to get in a different way is WRONG!

For the folks who enter the biz a little later in life standby I will work on your case next, I want to clear the military helicopter pilots first.

 

[bobbysamd]

Amen

Lets face the facts and let those with more money than brains pay the PFT fees. Maybe flight schools can have internship programs where they have the students wash and clean school aircraft for a promise of a "guaranteed" interview.

I'm still waiting for the legals to wake up and sue the "Academies" for false ads that promise the moon and in reality, give nothing but smoke & mirrors while management (school) LOL all the way to the bank.

I'd love to be the paralegal assigned to that case! Too bad our firm does not do such work.

However, while there are truth in advertising regs, consumer protection laws, bad-faith doctrines and contract laws, it is still only advertising. It is still up to the aspirant-consumer to ferret out truth from lies.

 

[bobbysamd]

Management neophytes and rotor time

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management . . . .

I agree. I prefer to use the term "coneheads."

My experience is that rotor pilots make excellent airplane pilots. Two of my best students were the aforementioned Army rotor pilot at Mesa and a former Army rotor pilot who came to me to add instrument privileges to his Private Airplane rating. The second guy in particular was excellent. I probably overtrained him because he was my first instrument student and second signoff. He did great for me and passed his practical without a problem. I had a student at Riddle who held a Canadian rotor license. He, too, was an excellent pilot.