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Why General Custer(Lee) loves the merger

nwaredtail

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And why he is even more of a jag. After doing some research and actually using the seniority that he "says" he is, the General makes out under either proposal.

Lets look:

Approx DAL seniority :47%, in five years (assuming retirement at 60 for BOTH AIRLINES) his seniorirty at original Delta would be 41% and in ten years 20%.

Under NWA proposal, Year 1 = 51% (hardly the 14% he was crying about) year 5 = 39% (5 % better than his original DAL projection due to NWA retirements) and at year 10 = 15% (25% better than his original DAL projection, thanks to NWA retirements)

Under DAL proposal year 1 = 46%, year 5 = 35 % ( 15% better than original seniority at DAL) year 10 = 10% ( a full 50% better than he would have had if DAL stood alone)

Either way, he gains seniority, it's just how much. All due to NWA retirements. How about a thank you butt head!!!!!!!!!!If you assume age 65, just project out 5 extra years.

Point is, Mr. Vocal wins either way, so far.
 
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Mikes Apartment

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And why he is even more of a jag. .

I think you're a jag! ???

Delta pilots haven't gotten much out of this merger so far. We get to look forward to a 5% pay bump in January that meets inflation wow. How much of a raise did you just get? How about the longevity bumps your furloughed pilots get? Work-rule improvements, qol, etc, etc.
Bottom line is we'll see when the list comes out if the Delta pilots get anything out of this.
 

GogglesPisano

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87% of NWA pilots voted in favor of the JCBA.

62% of Delta pilots voted in favor.

This fact is very illuminating as to who received a better deal.
 
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nwaredtail

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I think you're a jag! ???

Delta pilots haven't gotten much out of this merger so far. We get to look forward to a 5% pay bump in January that meets inflation wow. How much of a raise did you just get? How about the longevity bumps your furloughed pilots get? Work-rule improvements, qol, etc, etc.
Bottom line is we'll see when the list comes out if the Delta pilots get anything out of this.

This is tooooooooooo easy, You get the legacy airline that has regularly had the best financal numbers in the last few years (for an airline), 3 billion in cash to help us during the current financial crisis, fortress hubs, ASIA, Larger capacity, hot SEA flight Attendants,etc.

Pay raise? We are all still paid 1989 wages genius. Nothing to be proud of. Longevity bump ( for a few), Work rules? (won some, lost some) Bottom line, no artbitration award HAS EVER MENTIONED WHOS CONTRACT WAS BETTER. EVER. "Merger of equals" is what Bloch said. Change the record rookie.
 
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General Lee

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And why he is even more of a jag. After doing some research and actually using the seniority that he "says" he is, the General makes out under either proposal.

Lets look:

Approx DAL seniority :47%, in five years (assuming retirement at 60 for BOTH AIRLINES) his seniorirty at original Delta would be 41% and in ten years 20%.

Under NWA proposal, Year 1 = 51% (hardly the 14% he was crying about) year 5 = 39% (5 % better than his original DAL projection due to NWA retirements) and at year 10 = 15% (25% better than his original DAL projection, thanks to NWA retirements)

Under DAL proposal year 1 = 46%, year 5 = 35 % ( 15% better than original seniority at DAL) year 10 = 10% ( a full 50% better than he would have had if DAL stood alone)

Either way, he gains seniority, it's just how much. All due to NWA retirements. How about a thank you butt head!!!!!!!!!!If you assume age 65, just project out 5 extra years.

Point is, Mr. Vocal wins either way, so far.


First off DC9 Captain (I'm impressed), I would like you to acknowledge my correct statement about the DTW-KIX route, along with SEA-LHR and DTW-CDG getting the eventual axe. You said my credibility was sinking, and it turns out again I was right.


As far as your SLI proposal goes, you keep forgetting that we have just as many, or MORE retirements than you do, just spaced 5 years afterward. We do. You like to say that attrition should count for something, yet that has NEVER been added to any SLI award, EVER. (as stated by your A320FO witness on the stand) The fact is, you want all of the pay raises, all of the movement, and our widebodies, which would give you ANOTHER large pay raise. Your Greenbooks are salivating to get into a widebody, since your Roberts award didn't allow it. Thank gawd the manning formula (something which benefits you AGAIN--you forgot that too) will allow your Greenbooks to bid up to their OWN widebodies first, much to the chagrin of furious junior Redbooks.

Fact. Our SLI proposal gives Deltoids a 2% bump up on our current relative percentage. (due to our proposal that 400 of your bottom pilots go to the bottom of the combined list---due to DC9s leaving the fleet and being lowest paid).

Fact. Your DOH proposal bumps the average Delta pilot backwards 7-14% (me, 14%). Your guy on the Stand stated you offered ratios to Roberts himself, and that you should use the Roberts award as something what NOT to use again. When you were the larger airline in SLI talks (like with CAL), you went for ratios. Now that you are smaller, you want DOH. It is all in the transcripts.


Now look, I can tell you are getting frustrated. I am getting to you maybe. LaCrosse layovers are getting to you. Whatever. Anyway, just get used to the fact that your testimony on the stand (inwhich everyone can see it) isn't helping your cause, and neither is precedent. Other than that, good times! Hey, at least you just got a nice raise. I can't wait for mine too (you get another one then too) on Jan 1st.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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8vATE

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Either way, he gains seniority, it's just how much. All due to NWA retirements. How about a thank you butt head!!!!!!!!!!If you assume age 65, just project out 5 extra years.

Point is, Mr. Vocal wins either way, so far.


Uh..

Isn't this basically what was the main issue with the USAirways (east) with the America West guys?

The majority of retirements are east in the next 15 years... with the ratio Nicolau award.. the AWA guys captured most of the attrition.
 

nwaredtail

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First off DC9 Captain (I'm impressed), I would like you to acknowledge my correct statement about the DTW-KIX route, along with SEA-LHR and DTW-CDG getting the eventual axe. You said my credibility was sinking, and it turns out again I was right.

You were wrong, Kix was announced long ago and the SEA-LHR is gone just for a couple months, back in spring. Sorry, your credibility is still crap.


Fact. Our SLI proposal gives Deltoids a 2% bump up on our current relative percentage. (due to our proposal that 400 of your bottom pilots go to the bottom of the combined list---due to DC9s leaving the fleet and being lowest paid)
. Plus an additional 25-50% in 5 to ten years, but that doesn't seem to be mentioned by you, why is that?
Fact. Your DOH proposal bumps the average Delta pilot backwards 7-14% (me, 14%).
But generally gets everyone ahead where they would be at original Delta in 5 to 10 years, yet you never mention that. Why is that?


But you agree, that you personally win either way, right?
 

General Lee

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This is tooooooooooo easy, You get the legacy airline that has regularly had the best financal numbers in the last few years (for an airline), 3 billion in cash to help us during the current financial crisis, fortress hubs, ASIA, Larger capacity, hot SEA flight Attendants,etc.

Pay raise? We are all still paid 1989 wages genius. Nothing to be proud of. Longevity bump ( for a few), Work rules? (won some, lost some) Bottom line, no artbitration award HAS EVER MENTIONED WHOS CONTRACT WAS BETTER. EVER. "Merger of equals" is what Bloch said. Change the record rookie.


That's all you have. Bloch's pre-written statement he voiced that we are "equals" (actually meaning one airline isn't failing (didn't you say you were saving us with all that cash Steenland kept to look better for a merger partner instead of expanding)) That really is what happened you know. Steenland wanted out, and kept cash (thanks to your bad contract and low rates) to attract merger partners. Regardless, you need to look at all of your testimony to back up your statements, which doesn't really help your case.

Why were we all at 1989 wages, but you gave up more to keep those pensions, and we kept our rules and better wages than you had. Then, we used most of the working capital offered to us for this merger from our management to bring you up to parity, genius. That sure was nice of us. And no merger has equated who's contract was better? Really? It doesn't take that account into awarding a windfall? Are you sure about that? I don't think you are. A DC9 Captain can't be thrown up to a 777 Captain's seniority range---that is a windfall.

And, we are both memebers of ALPA. We have to follow ALPA merger policies. The arbitrators know this. We'll see.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Mikes Apartment

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This is tooooooooooo easy, You get the legacy airline that has regularly had the best financal numbers in the last few years (for an airline), 3 billion in cash to help us during the current financial crisis, fortress hubs, ASIA, Larger capacity, hot SEA flight Attendants,etc.

Change the record rookie.

The way I see it we get MSP, DTW, and MEM as hubs, old a$$ DC-9s 747 cargo pieces of junk, and a bunch of jag (?) pilots like yourself. Rookie? That'll be funny when I'm senior to you in the arbitration award.
 

nwaredtail

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The way I see it we get MSP, DTW, and MEM as hubs, old a$$ DC-9s 747 cargo pieces of junk, and a bunch of jag (?) pilots like yourself. Rookie? That'll be funny when I'm senior to you in the arbitration award.

Whatever, junior. Nice moniker BTW. Is that how you get your thrills?
 

FBN0223

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The way I see it we get MSP, DTW, and MEM as hubs, old a$$ DC-9s 747 cargo pieces of junk, and a bunch of jag (?) pilots like yourself. Rookie? That'll be funny when I'm senior to you in the arbitration award.

i guess a every airline has a few... Hard to believe, Mikey, that you're actually a Delta pilot. All the guys I've met so far were pretty cool.
 

Noserider76

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Lets look:

Under DAL proposal year 1 = 46%, year 5 = 35 % ( 15% better than original seniority at DAL) year 10 = 10% ( a full 50% better than he would have had if DAL stood alone)

Either way, he gains seniority, it's just how much. All due to NWA retirements. How about a thank you butt head!!!!!!!!!!If you assume age 65, just project out 5 extra years.

Here's a rough comparison of age 65 retirements (the only sure thing) through 2028.

NW DL
2013 70 60
2014 96 75
2015 167 89
2016 183 136
2017 199 157
2018 230 218
2019 256 272
2020 285 348
2021 295 478
2022 343 567
2023 314 549
2024 283 544
2025 182 472
2026 180 422
2027 152 318
2028 122 311

Using 5300 NW pilots and 7500 DL pilots.

Over 20 years: NW DL
Total 3357 5016
Percentage 63.3% 66.9%

Over 10 years:
Total 945 735
Percentage 17.8% 9.8%

Years 10-20 2019-2028
NW DL
Total 2412 4281
Percentage 45.5% 57.1%

A few observations:

- Higher percentage of NW retirements in first 10 years.

- Higher percentage of DL retirements in years 10-20 and beyond.

- NW pilots will benefit from access to a larger, higher paying fleet at integration (ex fences).

- DL pilots will be exposed to a generally smaller, lower paying fleet at integration as well as the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet.

- 10 year fences seem timed precisely to allow NW pilots take advantage of their retirements then share the large increase in DL retirements.

- Any dynamic system would have to allow NW pilots to benefit from their retirements then DL pilots to benefit from their's. We'd be looking at a 20-25 dynamic list, fighting over who gets what new equipment the whole way.

- Glad I'm not a negotiator or arbitrator.

- Looking forward to a list that is equally unfair to all then moving this thing forward.
 
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Mikes Apartment

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i guess a every airline has a few... Hard to believe, Mikey, that you're actually a Delta pilot. All the guys I've met so far were pretty cool.

Well believe it buddy. I know I echo the sentiment from many Delta pilots that we're not getting as much out of this merger as the NWA guys. That combined with NALPA trying to pull this DOH b.s. I'm getting sick of it.
Wow you've met so many cool Delta guys, I should be ashamed, you and NWA Redtail are super guys. This will all be over when the arbitration is done. Then we can argue about normal stuff.
 

RedRum

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Tired of it

First off DC9 Captain (I'm impressed), ...

Now look, I can tell you are getting frustrated. I am getting to you maybe. LaCrosse layovers are getting to you. Whatever.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

You need to learn how to be a little more respectful. I think the post directed at you is filled with fact. None of which you were able to disprove with your numbers.

On another note. Have you ever even been to Lacrosse? What is your problem with this place? Seems to be you are really too rigid to understand that there is life outside your cozy little 767.

It would be a good idea not to trounce on someone's current position. I have flown the DC9 and I have a lot of resepct for the guys that type on the airplane. And while we are at it, that DC9 that you constantly pick on has put a roof over many families over the years. I find it particularly insulting that you constantly demean those who have ever flown it. It isn't the prettiest girl at the dance but it gets the job done.

NWA has been responsible in not loading up our debt over the years. Remember when being fiscally responsible and not loading a company down with debt was the right business decision to make? We own a lot of those DC9s and they helped take us through the CH 11 process. So when you sit on here and pontificate about what a whore the airplane is you really don't know what you are talking about.

So keep playing your broken record about DC9's going away. How you are picking up MD90's and 777LR's. Keep patting yourself on the back about the raise you gave us. Our JPWA is a document bought and paid for by Delta MANAGEMENT. YOU didn't give me anything! Get that straight!

Maybe you should re-read the Rules of the Road, because it seems to me that you are not treating others with very much respect. We are on the same team here. The sooner you realize this the better.

To any DAL pilots out there who read this. I am not directing this at you, rather your esteemed colleague who thinks he is better than most with his arrogant self-serving opinions.

Look forward to working with you all at Delta.
 

johnsonrod

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General,

You need to learn how to be a little more respectful. I think the post directed at you is filled with fact. None of which you were able to disprove with your numbers.

On another note. Have you ever even been to Lacrosse? What is your problem with this place? Seems to be you are really too rigid to understand that there is life outside your cozy little 767.

It would be a good idea not to trounce on someone's current position. I have flown the DC9 and I have a lot of resepct for the guys that type on the airplane. And while we are at it, that DC9 that you constantly pick on has put a roof over many families over the years. I find it particularly insulting that you constantly demean those who have ever flown it. It isn't the prettiest girl at the dance but it gets the job done.

NWA has been responsible in not loading up our debt over the years. Remember when being fiscally responsible and not loading a company down with debt was the right business decision to make? We own a lot of those DC9s and they helped take us through the CH 11 process. So when you sit on here and pontificate about what a whore the airplane is you really don't know what you are talking about.

So keep playing your broken record about DC9's going away. How you are picking up MD90's and 777LR's. Keep patting yourself on the back about the raise you gave us. Our JPWA is a document bought and paid for by Delta MANAGEMENT. YOU didn't give me anything! Get that straight!

Maybe you should re-read the Rules of the Road, because it seems to me that you are not treating others with very much respect. We are on the same team here. The sooner you realize this the better.

To any DAL pilots out there who read this. I am not directing this at you, rather your esteemed colleague who thinks he is better than most with his arrogant self-serving opinions.

Look forward to working with you all at Delta.

Let me understand this. You think GL needs to learn to be respectful? Have you ever read any of GL's comments? You couldn't sound more condescending. Regardless, he didn't start this inflamatory thread - nwredtail did. GL was merely defending himself.

I don't have a stake in this fight since I work for neither - I hope arbitration can finally put a lot of these issues to rest (unless you want a USAirways debacle). My suggestion is that you guys look for the positives instead of always harping on the negatives. Neither side will be absolutely happy - that's called an arbitrated compromise...

And just remember, NWA looked to be on the verge of furloughing pilots and eventually grounding many of its Diesel 9s (that still might happen). Combining with Delta should preserve a number of NWA jobs when this was not looking likely. Again, the positives seem to far outweigh the negatives in this case despite all of the complaining.
 

General Lee

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You were wrong, Kix was announced long ago and the SEA-LHR is gone just for a couple months, back in spring. Sorry, your credibility is still crap.


. Plus an additional 25-50% in 5 to ten years, but that doesn't seem to be mentioned by you, why is that?
But generally gets everyone ahead where they would be at original Delta in 5 to 10 years, yet you never mention that. Why is that?


But you agree, that you personally win either way, right?



That's funny, here is what you just posted about my info:

SEA-LHR still in Pars thru May, as is DTW-CDG. Once again, the General's information is incorrect.


So, now that we have that straight, that I am correct, let's move on......

ATTRITION HAS NEVER BEEN USED IN A SLI. Your A320FO on the stand admitted that. Your MEC Chairman "couldn't recall" how many furloughs he was told. Your 744 Captain told on the stand how they used ratios initially with Roberts and how his "highly regarded" friend the negotiator stated what "not to do"(the Roberts Award). Your Computer Model pilot spokesman stated, on the stand, that your average hours were a lot higher than ours, then stated your own computer model had incorrect fleet information. And after all of this, all you have from Bloch was that 2 legacy carriers that are financially "equal." (we aren't equal sized, we don't have equal number of widebodies, or equal number of very old mainline planes with no glass, or equal number of retirements that don't matter anyway--we have more later on). Keep looking for anything you can to refute this, but in the end, ALPA merger policy will prevail, just like at USAir. Status quo.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

General Lee

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General,

You need to learn how to be a little more respectful. I think the post directed at you is filled with fact. None of which you were able to disprove with your numbers.

On another note. Have you ever even been to Lacrosse? What is your problem with this place? Seems to be you are really too rigid to understand that there is life outside your cozy little 767.

It would be a good idea not to trounce on someone's current position. I have flown the DC9 and I have a lot of resepct for the guys that type on the airplane. And while we are at it, that DC9 that you constantly pick on has put a roof over many families over the years. I find it particularly insulting that you constantly demean those who have ever flown it. It isn't the prettiest girl at the dance but it gets the job done.

NWA has been responsible in not loading up our debt over the years. Remember when being fiscally responsible and not loading a company down with debt was the right business decision to make? We own a lot of those DC9s and they helped take us through the CH 11 process. So when you sit on here and pontificate about what a whore the airplane is you really don't know what you are talking about.

So keep playing your broken record about DC9's going away. How you are picking up MD90's and 777LR's. Keep patting yourself on the back about the raise you gave us. Our JPWA is a document bought and paid for by Delta MANAGEMENT. YOU didn't give me anything! Get that straight!

Maybe you should re-read the Rules of the Road, because it seems to me that you are not treating others with very much respect. We are on the same team here. The sooner you realize this the better.

To any DAL pilots out there who read this. I am not directing this at you, rather your esteemed colleague who thinks he is better than most with his arrogant self-serving opinions.

Look forward to working with you all at Delta.

More respectful? To a captain who is (or will be) junior to me anyway? This guy said I was lying about the announcements of some route cuts, and then I set him straight. Then he puts this thread up with the cool title, and expects me to give him respect? Come on. I like the debate and banter this board provides, and some people can't take it that I have an answer for everything they put out.

As far as the DC9 goes, it has a great history, but I never want to fly it. I was a 727FE, and that gave me some perspective on old style. I don't have to fly anymore of that stuff and I will be just fine. Been there, have the certificate. I never called your plane a "whore", I just wouldn't want to fly it. What worries many on this board is how long they will be around. You are bringing older planes to the table, and that worries some. As far as LaCrosse goes, never been there. I know your DC9s go there, so there you have it.

And YES, we did give you something. LOA19 was designed to bring you up to parity, and we were told how much was in the total pot. Most of that went to help you, not us. You got a raise, we didn't get our pension back.

Also, I am looking forward to this arguing being done. We are on the same team, but this SLI has to be fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Mikes Apartment

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General,


To any DAL pilots out there who read this. I am not directing this at you, rather your esteemed colleague who thinks he is better than most with his arrogant self-serving opinions.

Look forward to working with you all at Delta.

You seem like a real d o u s c h e b a g. I agree with the General on a lot of what he is saying. Am I being disrespectful?
 

Sedona16

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Great post! Again the notion the Northwest guys try to spread about thousands of retirements in a short period of time relative to Delta retiremenst is pure nonsense. A few more in the short term, many less in the long term. These are the facts....dont buy into all the smoke and mirrors these guys are trying to use.

Here's a rough comparison of age 65 retirements (the only sure thing) through 2028.

NW DL
2013 70 60
2014 96 75
2015 167 89
2016 183 136
2017 199 157
2018 230 218
2019 256 272
2020 285 348
2021 295 478
2022 343 567
2023 314 549
2024 283 544
2025 182 472
2026 180 422
2027 152 318
2028 122 311

Using 5300 NW pilots and 7500 DL pilots.

Over 20 years: NW DL
Total 3357 5016
Percentage 63.3% 66.9%

Over 10 years:
Total 945 735
Percentage 17.8% 9.8%

Years 10-20 2019-2028
NW DL
Total 2412 4281
Percentage 45.5% 57.1%

A few observations:

- Higher percentage of NW retirements in first 10 years.

- Higher percentage of DL retirements in years 10-20 and beyond.

- NW pilots will benefit from access to a larger, higher paying fleet at integration (ex fences).

- DL pilots will be exposed to a generally smaller, lower paying fleet at integration as well as the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet.

- 10 year fences seem timed precisely to allow NW pilots take advantage of their retirements then share the large increase in DL retirements.

- Any dynamic system would have to allow NW pilots to benefit from their retirements then DL pilots to benefit from their's. We'd be looking at a 20-25 dynamic list, fighting over who gets what new equipment the whole way.

- Glad I'm not a negotiator or arbitrator.

- Looking forward to a list that is equally unfair to all then moving this thing forward.
 
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