Why Fares Remain Low...ABC News article

[chase]

PCL,

No slap taken at the "real" airline comment....just making fun of myself & SWA...

As for your comments...many of us, not just in the airline industry work under the assumption that what "is" today, will remain forever in place. That nothing new in the way of new technology, new methods or new business models (in the case of our discussion) will ever be invented again....we all suffer under the paradigm that what we see around us is what will be in the future & that nothing new will come about that will "do" what these things are currently doing....let me illusrate my point.

15 years ago who would think of a concept such as "google"...it was only a dream, rough concept....now an entire industry & industries are changed because of it.....the new "micro jets" are coming out...is that the answer? I don't know....new technology on engines that may one day exclude or reduce the amount of oil required to go into a propulsion "fuel" thereby negating the entire "oil" issue. Other new & imaginative solutions to problems that our industry & others are facing....I have great faith in the American (& coming to a third world near you also) initiatives & brain power to find new technologies/business models that work.

As for more regulation....sorry, can't disagree with you more strongly than on that point....regulation adds "friction" to the process....adding "barriers" to the free market system on the whole is a bad idea IMHO....it only promotes & allows inefficienies to be awarded & allow loop holes for less scrupulous folks to find holes in & take advantage for their own personal gain....when things are out in the open for all to see, bid on fairly & compete with, the consumer & the producer are better served. Just my my $.02 worth....thanks again for some interesting points but we appear to be coming to different conclusions...thanks for not getting frustrated with an old guy who has failed logic cheers

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Remember the deregulation of telecom? Long distance rates are a fraction of what they used to be. Careers and Companies were destroyed. Americans, apparently, are o.k. with that. Same with steel and now the auto industry.

I think Americans are happy with airline deregulation and the low fares it has brought them. I think they are also happy the unions are getting put back in the box. The effect on the industry employees is "unfortunate" but may be a necessary evil for the goodness of cheaper travel. (That's me thinking like an airline traveler)

Don't get me wrong, I respect the passenger. They pay the bills. I even like to chit chat with them. But they are the master. In fact, their power and steadfast determination to obtain the lowest fare are frightening.


If you are going to write an article and sell it to the public you might as well say they "deserve" low fares. It would not do a writer any good to irritate the hand that feeds them.

 

[PCL_128]

As for more regulation....sorry, can't disagree with you more strongly than on that point....regulation adds "friction" to the process....adding "barriers" to the free market system on the whole is a bad idea IMHO....it only promotes & allows inefficienies to be awarded & allow loop holes for less scrupulous folks to find holes in & take advantage for their own personal gain....when things are out in the open for all to see, bid on fairly & compete with, the consumer & the producer are better served.

Normally, I would completely agree. I'm as conservative as they come on most things, and I love the free markets. There are a few things that I think need to be excluded from such market forces though, due to their importance in the nation's economy. Would you want to bid out a police force to the lowest bidder in a free market system? Firefighers maybe? I doubt it. I view the airlines as the same sort of thing. They provide a service that is absolutely essential to the American economy and way of life. The whole economic system is now built around the ability to freely "move about the country" (some props to SWA there ). I think this makes it important to remove the airlines from the normal market pressures, since they have proven themselves to be unable to cope with them.

thanks for not getting frustrated with an old guy who has failed logic cheers

Truly a pleasure, sir. I always like talking with the "old guys." If I was talking this over with a young guy like SWA/FO, this would have degenerated into a shouting match by now. Glad we could have a pleasant debate.:beer:

 

[mule]

I can't believe what I am seeing....

An intelligent discussion on flightinfo without all of the "mine is bigger than yours" personal attacks. I love it!

 

[IB6 UB9]

I can't believe what I am seeing....

An intelligent discussion on flightinfo without all of the "mine is bigger than yours" personal attacks. I love it!

...and even with a guy who PFT'd.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm as conservative as they come on most things, and I love the free markets. There are a few things that I think need to be excluded from such market forces though, due to their importance in the nation's economy. Would you want to bid out a police force to the lowest bidder in a free market system? Firefighers maybe? I doubt it. I view the airlines as the same sort of thing. They provide a service that is absolutely essential to the American economy and way of life.

Everybody thinks their career should be excluded from any free market forces as they take advantage of lower prices on consumer goods. Airline travel important? Yes. Exception to the rule of free market? Not a chance. Maybe the biz jets who carry the really important people are an exception.

We have VOLUNTEER firefighters in my neighborhood.

With all due respect, we have all been sold a bill of goods on the "American Way of Life" It is no accident that a majority of people consider themselves middle class and above average drivers. We have all bought the Marketing.

Welcome to the free market.

 

[SWA/FO]

They serve a few dozen cities, many of them smaller or secondary airports, and leave a large share of the country with no air service

If I was talking this over with a young guy like SWA/FO, this would have degenerated into a shouting match by now

Hey pal,

The SWA/FO has been here the whole time reading all of this. I disagree with your above statements. I don't think your belief/views make sense... But hey they are your own, I respect that. I'm probably not as nice as Chase, but I never yell...I might type fast but yell, no.

We serve more then 36 cities. The larger carriers that serve "smaller" markets do so with higher fares and some cities actually pay a carrier to operate out of their city. They price gouge the smaller cities because they can.

 

[SWA/FO]

and even with a guy who PFT'd.

And has one of the best jobs in aviation.

 

[canyonblue]

Everybody thinks their career should be excluded from any free market forces as they take advantage of lower prices on consumer goods.

I agree, ask any Bank Teller what they think of ATM machines. When was the last time anyone went into a bank to withdraw money. I also remember the days before Self Serve gas stations. The American people want it that way and the airline industry will have to adapt, even though most Gate Agents hate the Kiosks, and internet boarding passes.

 

[canyonblue]

I'm probably not as nice as Chase

Having met both of you I would say you two are more alike than you think.

 

[chase]

Normally, I would completely agree. I'm as conservative as they come on most things, and I love the free markets. There are a few things that I think need to be excluded from such market forces though, due to their importance in the nation's economy. Would you want to bid out a police force to the lowest bidder in a free market system? Nope....public safety is part of the role of the government. Same with our friends....theFirefighers maybe? We need them also...just like the military...these are very different approaches. I doubt it. I view the airlines as the same sort of thing. At one time the railroads wanted the same type of protection....look what we have done with the railroads....lots of subsidies & do we have a better private or publicly owned (not government subsidized) railroad...why shouldn't they receive the same type of regulartory benefits that would help them? Barge companies on the Mississippi? Fedex & UPS will be lining up next? They provide a service that is absolutely essential to the American economy and way of life. So do the other folks I mentioned above don't they? The whole economic system is now built around the ability to freely "move about the country" (some props to SWA there ). I think this makes it important to remove the airlines from the normal market pressures, since they have proven themselves to be unable to cope with them.


Truly a pleasure, sir. I always like talking with the "old guys." If I was talking this over with a young guy like SWA/FO, this would have degenerated into a shouting match by now. Glad we could have a pleasant debate.:beer:

The airline industry has not been allowed to really have a free market even with the dissolving of the CAB....other regulatory agencies step in & slap this law or Congress steps in & adds more levels of beaucracies & lunacy to the process.

You are right, it is a valuable asset to our economy. It will & can flourish but I'm saying it may not do it in its present form...that's the phrase that scares the dickens out of folks I know...but is the airline drastically different now than 5 years ago...who'd thunk it right? That includes SWA....models may need to change, expenditures will adjust, employee groups will find themselves displaced due to technology (our reservation folks know that better than anyone else...but over 900 of the 1900 adjusted & learned new skills) & the removal of more "friction" from the process of getting from point A-B. Safety, price, efficiency, customer service are king....those companies who can harness the right combination ( & reduce "friction) of those items will find themselves a very stiff competitor for SWA or any other legacy out there. Will Virgin Atlantic be that airline? JB revitalized after they get their act together? A Ryanair (from Europe) that comes to America finally....we also assume the only way to generate revenue on an airplane, significant revenue is to have folks buy tickets.....are there other ways to generate revenue with a captive audience inside an inclosed space?

What if your airline right now could figure out a way to wireless on board their flights right now? Presto chango, new ways to make money....are there are ways that we aren't even aware of right now? Charge for it, would people pay? you bet they would....what if you had online gambling (Ryan Air is going that way)...how about advertisement on board...selling space for that? Other methods too numerous to say on how revenue "could" be generated to offset the higher fuel....but even more than that it is the concept that if we as employees assume our jobs will always remain as is, unless we're a sports star or someone with a truly unique talent (open heart surgeon, etc) that can't be simply sold for a lower bid because the demandis too high...well, we will find ourselves without a job the same way the iceman in the mid-20s found himself without a job once electricity came around & everyone got refrigerators & that job became obsolete. Pilots won't be obsolete but the business model we operate under may & someone else will find a more efficeint & better way to use that specialized skill of a pilot.

Businesses & employees must continue to look at ways to make themselves more valuable to their company & to themeselves in the general marketplace. Flying jobs will be around for a long time....that is great news....in what shape or form & with what pay is to be determined.....having a "whoa is me, I want the good 'ole days to return" is equivalent to those who couldn't see that several years ago that defined benefit programs were to go to the rubbish bin of history in terms of financial retirement plans. Again, this isn't meant to be slam toward those folks...eveyrone was sold a bill of goods & that time has now come to get on with life & make adjustments. Many are...I'm sure you will too PCL....cheers...again my comments are meant to generate any venom in or toward anyone...they are merely comments meant to provoke some thougt about an industry that is obviously changing....plus I still love to fly!!!.

And Mule, as for your comment, "meaningful debate" & "chase" in the same post is stretching it but thanks for the compliment....PCL has been carrying on most of it quite well....

 

[IB6 UB9]

And has one of the best jobs in aviation.

Pinnacle is one of the best jobs in aviation? Wake up.

 

[SWA/FO]

Maybe? I don't know..... It could be?

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe? I don't know..... It could be?

LOL! I wish. Just doing my time until I can move on to bigger and better things.

 

[Falconjet]

And has one of the best jobs in aviation.

Wow: That sounds like SWA/FO just admitted that he was PFT!

Is that true SWA/FO?

FJ