Why Can't I Pft Like The Rich Kids Do??

[Da Vinci]

OK-FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm studying right now to get my CFI so i can earn my way into ...somewhere...the hard and 'respected' way. so i'm not looking to get flamed here but i have a friend who is older like me...he's in his early 30's and he told me something that makes A LOT of sense...so i'm only asking those that have hiring position or that really KNOW about hiring of pilots for their opinion.

my friend said, HR departements frown on YOUNG pilots (kids-like the teenager that was right seat on a recent biz trip i took) who buy time...because they are young and should get experience. he said his 'source' advised him when older guys...myself...buy time, it's ok because we have already 'earned' our way in life and it is acceptable for us to try and accelerate our career by buying time.

so i have the means to buy 500 hours in most jets (eaglejet.net) without taking out a loan - is it REALLY the curse some of you guys say it is?? even for older guys? i'm 31 and every student in my CFI class is like 8 years younger. i'm looking for constructive feedback on this...'hot'...subject.

thanks

 

[Da Vinci]

also, is there 'good pft' versus 'bad pft'? and is it true atlanta has an 80% fail rate for CFI's?????

 

[UnAnswerd]

he said his 'source' advised him when older guys...myself...buy time, it's ok because we have already 'earned' our way in life and it is acceptable for us to try and accelerate our career by buying time.

That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. You've "earned" your way in life??? What have you earned that places you above and beyond the skill level of a younger guy with comparable training??? If someone's flying me around, I want to know that person knows how to fly. I could care less about their age or whatever irrelevant things they've "earned" in life.

 

[Catnhat]

Da Vinci

Keep working on the CFI and take some of that money burning a hole in your pocket, and get some actual IFR / PIC experience first. With your 300+ hours, adding 500 hrs of jet right seat time won't mean much at any age. You need PIC time before anybody is going to look seriously at jet time either earned or payed for. Besides don't the jet pft guys require 1000 hrs min?

As for the age question, I have found, and heard from an HR employee at a major regional, that like anything else it depends. Like any kind of preference or prejudice, age can be a factor. All things being equal, some regionals like older guys because there is a higher probability of them being more responsible, and more knowledgeable from their extra years of experiences. Plus they are less likely to bolt for a few extra bucks or for the majors. Corporate departments usually like older guys because the execs they fly like middle age pilots in the cockpit. But this is not true just because of age. You also need the experience at any age.

You need to get to 1200hrs minimum with as much PIC and Instrument as possible. Then if you can, go get a bunch of turbine training with an ATP.

I can't imagine many employers are going to be excited to hire a guy with less than 1000TT just because he went and bought 500 hrs in the right seat of a jet. On the other hand at 2000TT with a bunch of PIC, it might be a whole different story.

Good luck.

 

[MTpilot]

get a job!

Even with 500 hrs right seat time, you're still pretty much worthless (no offense). Right seat time just isn't worth much, even more so with low total time. As far as having "earned something" just for being 30, don't kid yourself.

 

[El Guapo]

Pft

Da Vinci,

I'm currently selling my heavy jet time at a reduced rate. I'll fly it and you log it. If you're going to give money away it might as well be to me that collects. Let me know.

 

[viper548]

I agree with everyone else, jet time is useless unless you have some decent total time to back it up (>1000hrs). Start by getting 100-150 hrs Multi time, then work on getting the total time up there.

 

[NookyBooky]

OK-FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm studying right now to get my CFI so i can earn my way into ...somewhere...the hard and 'respected' way. so i'm not looking to get flamed here but i have a friend who is older like me...he's in his early 30's and he told me something that makes A LOT of sense...so i'm only asking those that have hiring position or that really KNOW about hiring of pilots for their opinion.

my friend said, HR departements frown on YOUNG pilots (kids-like the teenager that was right seat on a recent biz trip i took) who buy time...because they are young and should get experience. he said his 'source' advised him when older guys...myself...buy time, it's ok because we have already 'earned' our way in life and it is acceptable for us to try and accelerate our career by buying time.

so i have the means to buy 500 hours in most jets (eaglejet.net) without taking out a loan - is it REALLY the curse some of you guys say it is?? even for older guys? i'm 31 and every student in my CFI class is like 8 years younger. i'm looking for constructive feedback on this...'hot'...subject.

thanks

A more clear and concise way of asking that quesiton would to be to say: "Hey, why can't I f**k you all in the arse too? All the rich kids are doing it." If you want to pay employers to take a job from a paid professional and sell it to you, go for it. It is a free country after all. You probably won't get spit on by most of the REAL PROFFESIONALS you meet, but you will definately be deserve it if they did. If you do that sort of thing, then you deserve the worst. PFT'ers might as well chit in a box and UPS it out to all the furghloughees out there. If you want to be another punk who has a mid-life crisis and decides to take a second morgtage so he can buy some poor chaps job, go for it.

 

[NookyBooky]

OK-FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm studying right now to get my CFI so i can earn my way into ...somewhere...the hard and 'respected' way. so i'm not looking to get flamed here but i have a friend who is older like me...he's in his early 30's and he told me something that makes A LOT of sense...so i'm only asking those that have hiring position or that really KNOW about hiring of pilots for their opinion.

my friend said, HR departements frown on YOUNG pilots (kids-like the teenager that was right seat on a recent biz trip i took) who buy time...because they are young and should get experience. he said his 'source' advised him when older guys...myself...buy time, it's ok because we have already 'earned' our way in life and it is acceptable for us to try and accelerate our career by buying time.

so i have the means to buy 500 hours in most jets (eaglejet.net) without taking out a loan - is it REALLY the curse some of you guys say it is?? even for older guys? i'm 31 and every student in my CFI class is like 8 years younger. i'm looking for constructive feedback on this...'hot'...subject.

thanks

I don't get this moronic PFT logic. If you want to fly so bad then buy your own plane, not a job. The employer is supposed to be paying you (no matter how old and stupid you are), not the other way around

 

[viper548]

NookyBooky speaks for about 95% of Commercial pilots. Well said.

 

[semperfido]

OK-FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm studying right now to get my CFI so i can earn my way into ...somewhere...the hard and 'respected' way. so i'm not looking to get flamed here but i have a friend who is older like me...he's in his early 30's and he told me something that makes A LOT of sense...so i'm only asking those that have hiring position or that really KNOW about hiring of pilots for their opinion.

my friend said, HR departements frown on YOUNG pilots (kids-like the teenager that was right seat on a recent biz trip i took) who buy time...because they are young and should get experience. he said his 'source' advised him when older guys...myself...buy time, it's ok because we have already 'earned' our way in life and it is acceptable for us to try and accelerate our career by buying time.

so i have the means to buy 500 hours in most jets (eaglejet.net) without taking out a loan - is it REALLY the curse some of you guys say it is?? even for older guys? i'm 31 and every student in my CFI class is like 8 years younger. i'm looking for constructive feedback on this...'hot'...subject.

thanks

just work your way up from the bottom...it will be good for you. forget age issues...if you are meant to be a 747 capt it will happen

 

[Da Vinci]

this is clearly a sensative issue. my history is in the corporate environment. seriously, you do whatever you need to get ahead. you don't 'look out' for anyone...just yourself. so please don't think my intentions are to 'steal' anyones job. it's just to get ahead quicker. it seems pilots are more sensative about exactly what getting ahead means...and i'm trying to make sure i don't shoot myself in my own foot.

imagine your 30 before finally deciding to follow your real passion, you're jobless for the first time in 13 years....your eager to start...eaglejet sends you paperwork offering 500 in this or that for 20K+...it's tempting. i'm just being honest, ok?

my money was hard earned...and i'm eager to start making it again. i am choosing the CFI route...but i was thinking of getting CFI, teaching for 300 hrs and then buying time. it seems if so many of you 'real pilots' and by that i mean guys earning a living flying...feel this strongly...it would be a huge reason for me to avoid this completely. that was the intent of my email. i know people hate it...but was was wondering if there is a way to do it correctly...and not be hated.

that answer seems NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i can ONLY assume pilots on this forum represent other pilots opinions and if that is correct...i should run not walk from the idea completely.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

This is flame. Talk to a 15 year USair pilot flying a jet for $50.00/hr, and tell them you've earned your way in life. Sounds like you really don't have a grasp on anything remotely close.

 

[viper548]

If you really want to get ahead that fast, buy a C-152 and use that to quickly build your time. If you BUY 500 hours of jet time from some PFT place for 20K, that's $40/hr. If you bought a C-152 and flew at econ cruise, you could get the operating cost that low. If you get someone to go along with you as a safety pilot and split the cost, that would be even better. Jet time looks good in the logbook, I'll give you that. However, at 1000 hours total time, I think 500 pic in a c-152 looks better than 500 sic in a jet. If your goal is to get a job at 1000 hrs, I think you would be much better off flying the 152. PIC time is important for getting the first job. Also think of this, if you do the PFT program and get hired right away, you wouldn't be able to make captain because you wouldn't meet the ATP flight experience requirements.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

How about- go away and get a real job, because this isn't one...

 

[viper548]

I made the mistake of getting typed in the CE-500 and CE-525 when I was low time. The training was done in the airplane, which was a lot of fun, and was a great experience. I had VA benefits to use, and that is why I got the type, but it still cost quite a bit of money out of my pocket. I thought that having a type rating would somehow make up for my lack of total time. I quickly found out how wrong I was. I had a couple places offer me an 'opportunity' to fly with them, as they needed a typed SIC, however, they were not willing to pay me. Forget that!! There were a couple places that would be interested, after I had 1200TT. When I had my first interview with a regional, it was 2 years after the citation training. He wanted me to talk about the systems of the jet, but after 2 years of not flying the plane, I had forgotten almost everything about it. Like I said before, jet time without total time is worthless.

 

[Flying Illini]

Instruct for a while, then go to Air Cargo Carriers or someplace like that (talked to a right seater in the Shorts the other day, said he got hired at 500hrs). He said he is flying 50+ hrs a month. At that rate, you will build your time very quickly. As a matter of fact, if you do that, you will pass me in total time in two years or so...and I've been doing this corp. thing for 2.5 years now. With that time, you will be employable just about anywhere. Or, just instruct for 300hrs, go to the airlines, some are hiring with 600 TT. Maybe I'm not clear, but what would the purpose be to buy 500hrs in a jet when you could get hired low time and fly turbine equipment? What is your dream job that can't wait another two years while you build experience without spending your money? In aviation, you will probably want to hang onto that 20K that's burning the hole in your pocket b/c you will need it to subsidize your income during the early stages of your career.

 

[viper548]

Express jet and ASA are both hiring pilots at 500-600 hours.

 

[TurboS7]

You can't PFT because that cost money, you'll just have to tough it out like the rest of us.

 

[taloft]

If you are ever "lucky" enough to find a shortcut, you will just be shortcutting yourself.

I know, it's almost a cliche. I had a much longer post all prepared but it can be boiled down to basically the sentence above. Think about it.

 

[Nindiri]

Like the others said, don't waste your money buying multi time now. After you've built up your total time, if you're still having trouble getting the multi hours, then you could consider buying them. No sense in buying hours if you can get someone else to pay for them, though, unless it's getting you a job a lot quicker (senority is everything).

As for the PFT label, I wouldn't spend much time worrying about that. Outside of the message board world, nobody cares one way or the other.

 

[moxiepilot]

you do whatever you need to get ahead. you don't 'look out' for anyone...just yourself.

this industry is too small to think that if you step on someone's foot you won't be having to kiss their a$$ in a few years, cause you will.

imagine your 30 before finally deciding to follow your real passion, you're jobless for the first time in 13 years....your eager to start...eaglejet sends you paperwork offering 500 in this or that for 20K+...it's tempting. i'm just being honest, ok?

i appreciate your honesty at the risk of being flamed on a sensitive subject, but honestly i wouldn't do it.
i'm 30 going on 31. i have my cfi checkride coming up in about 2 weeks. i have $200,000 of debt and i'm unemployed while i train. i expect to make $10-15/hr for the next few years as a cfi and be paid i'd say on average 30-40 a week on a good week (ground & flight time)

that ain't gonna cut it to pay the bills, but there's nothing to take. if i had $20k at 300 hours would i jump on your opportunity? no.

i can ONLY assume pilots on this forum represent other pilots opinions and if that is correct...i should run not walk from the idea completely.

at least you didn't make the mistake then realize it later. good luck

 

[viper548]

i'm 30 going on 31. i have my cfi checkride coming up in about 2 weeks. i have $200,000 of debt and i'm unemployed while i train. i expect to make $10-15/hr for the next few years as a cfi and be paid i'd say on average 30-40 a week on a good week (ground & flight time)

Moxie, you have a very good idea of what things will be like. I worked 7 days a week and made myself available all day. I averaged 25-30 hours a week. I HIGHLY suggest getting your CFII immediatly after your CFI. The CFII checkride is very easy. If you wait, you'll find out you have no time to do it. The CFII makes you more competitive for a job, if you don't have one lined up already. Most importantly, it will help you make more money and get hours faster. The private and commerical courses have a lot of solo flights. The instrument is all dual. Teaching instrument students is genarally less stressful than private students, since they already know how to land.
Good luck on the checkride.

 

[MJPilot]

The instrument is all dual???

I strongly believe that only 25 hours of DUAL is needed towards the 40 required.

 

[MJPilot]

Buying jet time might just work for you.

I built my time from 350 hours to 4000, including 1200 Multi, within the past 5 years.

I managed to get hired at a dangerous outfit in the Carribean flying C-402s, which I ultimately turned down, also due to personal reasons.

I sent out hundreds or resumees but could not get any response or interview.

Found a job in Asia, so I did a B727 type rating, and that is where I fly now, very happy. Now, this is not PFT, since I only got my rating to get the job.

My goal was and still is to fly a business jet. If I had not found this job here, I might have considered what you are thinking about.

It is very hard to get a corporate job, if you dont have any connections nor type rating.

 

[Goose Egg]

I'm in somewhat of a similar position, although a little further along. I'm 28, I have my CFIs, and about 600 hours TT. Would I consider PFT? Nope. I don't want to pay for it. I have about $25K worth of student loans from my college/flight training, and I think that's enough.

Save yer money. You'll need it later. Remember, there's no such thing as a free lunch. I'm not so sure that there's really any way to get "ahead" per se.

-Goose

 

[Godvek]

Do the math, if you can justify spending $24,000-$80,000 to get a $18,000 a year job that will become a $40,000 a year job after 3-5 years go for it! Although as stated in an earlier post, regionals such as ASA, Expressjet, Eagle, Pinnacle, Chautauqua have pretty low mins and are also hiring like crazy, so enjoying a little instructing for a year or so might save you 15% on your car insurance.

 

[viper548]

The instrument is all dual???

I strongly believe that only 25 hours of DUAL is needed towards the 40 required.

I did training under part 141 where all the lessons are dual, under part 61 you are correct. Anyways, the point is, in general, you will get more flight time from an instrument student than you will a private student.

 

[Almerick07]

No harm in researching ways to get jobs in the aviation industry, especially if you are new to it. PFT is a very touchy subject only because the aviation industry is a tight-nit group of people always looking out for everyone else. PFT is a good way to get a reputation in this industry and a reputation in this small of a community can haunt you for as long as your working/looking for work. If you honest to goodness wanted to get to an airline fast and had $20k in your pocket I would join a flying club and split tons of twin time with anyone who was willing, it is an awesome way to keep instrument skills sharp and see a lot of different places. I would also spilt time in a c152 as well to build your TT up. My club in particular has a c150 that rents for $35 an hour...split that and youre spending $17 an hour. The twin my club has is a duchess and rents for $130 an hour...split that and your looking at $65 an hour for twin time, not too shabby. Split 100 hours in the twin would cost you $6500 and with the remainder of that $20k you could split almost 800 hours in the C150. 800 hours on top of your commercial ticket and 100 hours multi will get you a job at just about any hiring regional. Splitting time in my opinion gives you "real" experience, just wait for those overcast days and stay in the clouds. Best of luck to you.

 

[NYCPilot]

Whether or not the PFT stigma is an issue, you’ll learn to be a much better pilot listening to what these guys are saying. Most airlines as well as the paying passengers want to see someone who has instructed and had some 135 freight experience. These type of pilots tend to be very good candidates and have proven themselves by going out there and obtaining real world PIC experience. It’s not all about wearing the uniform and flying a jet. The uniform should connotate an image of someone who has earned his expereince and skills. You need to build up some real experience, otherwise your co-workers aren’t going to respect you very much either. Would you want to be a passenger on a flight where the pilot paid to fly you around and avoided the an important stepping stone part of his career. By flying around as PIC in some IMC, you’ll gain tons of experience. Also, flight instructing allows you to learn a great deal about flying by teaching it. They say teaching is like learning twice. Doing some 135 single pilot stuff will be scary at times and really build your confidence and decision making skills. You’ll also learn a lot of respect. If you’ve got all this money, I would get the CFI, CFII and MEI and instruct for a little while. Maybe on the side buy some multi time to meet some hiring minimums. Right now the regionals are doing a lot of hiring and you should be able to get on with one of them within a couple of years. You certainly aren’t too old to be hired and have a long successful career as an airline pilot at a good regional.