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Why be so quick to report "traffic in sight" ?

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Bernoulli

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2003
Posts
227
This thread is in response to the thread titled "Anyone hear NY APP yell at 888BW last night? ... in which 888BW basically almost had a mid air with Jet Blue 182 heavy. 888BW had told ATC he had the Jet Blue 182 heavy "in sight" about one minute before he performed an evasive maneuver to avoid a mid air collision with Jet Blue 182 heavy.

In a radar environment, ATC will maintain separation for all IFR aircraft and if a VFR aircraft is receiving advisories (flight following) ATC will provide separation on a work-load basis... If the VFR aircraft is in a Bravo airspace he/she will receive separation just like any IFR aircraft. So... if ATC warns you about traffic and will keep doing so the closer you get and will eventually turn both aircraft so they do not hit, why then would you be so quick to report the traffic in sight? If you report the traffic in sight (and the other traffic reports you in sight) and it's either the wrong traffic or you loose sight of the traffic, you have now put yourself in an unneccesarily less safe situation and possibly on a collision course with another aircraft because ATC aint warning you of each other anymore. ATC thinks you both have each other in sight and will maintain visual separation from each other. When ATC tells me I have traffic, I only report "traffic in sight" when I am absolutely positive that I have the traffic they are warning me about and I only do so at a point where I'm positive we could never collide... So I rarely report the traffic in sight...I simply tell them I'm looking for traffic even if I have the traffic in sight. I may see the traffic but I let ATC work for me and make sure I have that extra safety layer. I always look for traffic when advised and will allways maintain separation when I see traffic, but I rarely give up that extra layer of separation safety that a radar environment provides. As soon as I report traffic in sight I then must take on the complete responsibility for separation... Why should I do that when there is an ATC guy who can help me just in case I get busy and loose sight of that traffic? Someone please give me a good reason why I should reduce my separation safety when ATC will help me do it. I hear aircraft report traffic in sight all the time and then procede to almost collide. It's dumb... why do it when you can simply say you are still looking for traffic? OK... Flame on.
 
JetBlue 182 HEAVY???? I think I've been away to long:D !!! JK

Looks like Yank beat me to it....oh well!!
 
Bernoulli said:
This thread is in response to the thread titled "Anyone hear NY APP yell at 888BW last night? ... in which 888BW basically almost had a mid air with Jet Blue 182 heavy. 888BW had told ATC he had the Jet Blue 182 heavy "in sight" about one minute before he performed an evasive maneuver to avoid a mid air collision with Jet Blue 182 heavy.

In a radar environment, ATC will maintain separation for all IFR aircraft and if a VFR aircraft is receiving advisories (flight following) ATC will provide separation on a work-load basis... If the VFR aircraft is in a Bravo airspace he/she will receive separation just like any IFR aircraft. So... if ATC warns you about traffic and will keep doing so the closer you get and will eventually turn both aircraft so they do not hit, why then would you be so quick to report the traffic in sight? If you report the traffic in sight (and the other traffic reports you in sight) and it's either the wrong traffic or you loose sight of the traffic, you have now put yourself in an unneccesarily less safe situation and possibly on a collision course with another aircraft because ATC aint warning you of each other anymore. ATC thinks you both have each other in sight and will maintain visual separation from each other. When ATC tells me I have traffic, I only report "traffic in sight" when I am absolutely positive that I have the traffic they are warning me about and I only do so at a point where I'm positive we could never collide... So I rarely report the traffic in sight...I simply tell them I'm looking for traffic even if I have the traffic in sight. I may see the traffic but I let ATC work for me and make sure I have that extra safety layer. I always look for traffic when advised and will allways maintain separation when I see traffic, but I rarely give up that extra layer of separation safety that a radar environment provides. As soon as I report traffic in sight I then must take on the complete responsibility for separation... Why should I do that when there is an ATC guy who can help me just in case I get busy and loose sight of that traffic? Someone please give me a good reason why I should reduce my separation safety when ATC will help me do it. I hear aircraft report traffic in sight all the time and then procede to almost collide. It's dumb... why do it when you can simply say you are still looking for traffic? OK... Flame on.

OK, you were the pilot of 888BW, weren't you????
 
Besides, it was Jet Blue 182 that was the first traffic pointed out. But it was Jet Blue 29 that was the traffic of concern and the one he descended to "avoid". Jet Blue 29 reported the RA and that they had the Cherokee in sight the whole time.

More credibility problems for you Bernoulli.
 
My bad... Jet blue not a heavy (airbus 320 is way less than 255,000 LBS)
My bad... jet blue 29 was the aircraft of concern... I was watching the animation of the flight tracks while listening and the two were not sinked at the same speed... Made it look like JB182 was the aircraft.
As far as me being 888BW... Sorry guys...good try but I have never flown on the east coast. Only flown on the Pacific side of the country.

So... Do you guys think it is safe to quickly call traffic in sight in a busy environment and throw away the added safety of ATC helping you stay separated? Constructive comments would be appreciated (I know that's a hard one for many on this site). Thanks in advance
 
My bad... jet blue 29 was the aircraft of concern... I was watching the animation of the flight tracks while listening and the two were not sinked at the same speed... Made it look like JB182 was the aircraft.

How were you watching the animation of the flight? Is there a website to observe air traffic, other than the usual fight tracking websites that show one flight over a large area?
 
Bernoulli said:
So... Do you guys think it is safe to quickly call traffic in sight in a busy environment and throw away the added safety of ATC helping you stay separated? Constructive comments would be appreciated
OK, I'll be the first!

No, you should not call traffic instantaneously. Even more important, when in a crew environment, the NFP should not call traffic unless the PF has it in sight.

Wanna get me irritated? Here's what you do. When there are a million airplanes on the horizon on a hazy day, and ATC calls out traffic to follow, call it out as quickly as you can, and watch me try to guess which aircraft we are following, or at least watch me jump on the radio to tell ATC that we do NOT, in fact, have the traffic in sight.

Wanna make me get absolutely apoplectic? After you have done this on my previous leg, on my next leg, do this. On a perfectly clear day, with ONE airplane anywhere within sight, and I say "Traffic in sight", make a big show of looking for the aircraft while I repeatedly say "Its' right THERE!".

Long answer short, the guy that drives me batty is the NFP who thinks he is the only one who can call traffic.

LAXSaabdude.
 

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