Why are you surprised????

[JoeMerchant]

Pilots urge other Northwest unions to take cuts

Associated Press


MINNEAPOLIS - In an effort to preserve jobs and save Northwest Airlines from potential bankruptcy, the head of the pilots union is urging other unions to accept cuts.

Last November, Northwest's pilots accepted a 15 percent pay cut, becoming the first of the airline's major labor groups to ratify a contract that reflects the company's financial situation.

Northwest airline lost $458 million during the first quarter and is attempting to reduce its annual labor costs by $1.1 billion.

"The time has come for all union leaders to move beyond denial and anger and act responsibly for the good of their members," said Mark McClain, chairman of the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association.

The pilots' new contract saves the Eagan-based airline $265 million a year, and Northwest has reduced the compensation of its salaried employees by $35 million a year.

"Northwest, just like the other major carriers, cannot avoid bankruptcy if it continues to lose money at the current rate. It's that simple," McClain said in a memo to Northwest pilots.

A Northwest spokesman declined Wednesday to comment on the pilots' memo. Andrea Fischer Newman, Northwest's senior vice president of government affairs, did not speculate on the potential for a bankruptcy filing.

 

[capt. megadeth]

By doing this, you are just avoiding the inevitable.

Start socking your money away boys and girls.

 

[TAZ MAN]

By doing this, you are just avoiding the inevitable.

Start socking your money away boys and girls.

Whats the inevitable? Going out of business?

Of all people you should show some empathy. Just like you received when your airline went under. Now that you are in the pool at UPS your acting like an arrogant biatch.

I know you have a beef with SWA, but why NWA? Or is it all PAX carriers all together. We are all in this together. Whether its freight or PAX. We are one profession.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Pilots urge other Northwest unions to take cuts

Associated Press


MINNEAPOLIS - In an effort to preserve jobs and save Northwest Airlines from potential bankruptcy, the head of the pilots union is urging other unions to accept cuts and consider whether they really need to live in their own homes.

Last November, Northwest's pilots accepted a 15 percent pay cut, becoming the first of the airline's major labor groups to ratify a contract that reflects the company's financial situation.

Northwest airline lost $458 million during the first quarter and is attempting to reduce its annual labor costs by $1.1 billion initially. Further cuts, concessions and pay for training in the DC-9 may be required to meet management objectives.

"The time has come for all union leaders to move beyond denial and anger and act responsibly for the good of their senior members on ALPA leave. Your wife's parents have a spare bedroom, use it..." said Mark McClain, chairman of the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association. Duane Woerth, President of the Airline Pilots Association, added that Regional Jets are responsible for the down turn in Northwests profitability.

The pilots' new contract saves the Eagan-based airline $265 million a year, and Northwest has reduced the compensation of its salaried employees by $35 million a year. Management has earned bonuses of 258 million, based on the cost savings, according to sources at the "Envision a new Paradigm" awards banquet at the Detroit Hilton.

"Northwest, just like the other major carriers, cannot avoid bankruptcy if it continues to lose money at the current rate. It's that simple," McClain said in a memo to Northwest pilots. "That is why managers must take as much money as they can from the Company now."

A Northwest spokesman declined Wednesday to comment on the pilots' memo. Andrea Fischer Newman, Northwest's Senior Vice President of Government Affairs, located in the Manolo Blanik shoe section of Nieman Marcus, did not speculate on the potential for a bankruptcy filing. Andrea Fischer Newman, Northwest's Senior Vice President of Government Affairs, was able to confirm that she save Northwest at least $125 on her expense account because her Manolo's were bought at a 20% discount because it was Wednesday and Nieman Marcus has a sale on Wednesdays and sometimes on Thursdays and Saturdays.

Northwest stock is trading up 2% on the news to $5.00, off its previous high of $38.26.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Whats the inevitable? Going out of business?

Of all people you should show some empathy. Just like you received when your airline went under. Now that you are in the pool at UPS your acting like an arrogant biatch.

I know you have a beef with SWA, but why NWA? Or is it all PAX carriers all together. We are all in this together. Whether its freight or PAX. We are one profession.

Chill out dude. No, that's not what I was talking about.
Pilots (or whatever work group) take pay cuts to "save" company. The vicious cycle of $hitty management who are not held accountable for anything continues. Work groups are asked to take more pay cuts. That's the inevitable! No matter what you do, they will take and blackmail you for more. Instead of fixing the problems, they will just take more from the labor groups BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE YOU BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARDPLACE.

Has your blood pressure come down now Taz? Chill out....I am on your side.

For the record, the only thing I have a beef with is arrogant and incompetent management that gets rich off other's back. K?

And YES I have a big beef with SWA and ATA.

 

[Photoflight]

Management has earned bonuses of 258 million,

Someone tell me that management didn't give themselves 258 million in bonuses after getting nearly that much in paycuts??

 

[mystere]

Chill out dude. No, that's not what I was talking about.
Pilots (or whatever work group) take pay cuts to "save" company. The vicious cycle of $hitty management who are not held accountable for anything continues. Work groups are asked to take more pay cuts. That's the inevitable! No matter what you do, they will take and blackmail you for more. Instead of fixing the problems, they will just take more from the labor groups BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE YOU BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARDPLACE.

Has your blood pressure come down now Taz? Chill out....I am on your side.

For the record, the only thing I have a beef with is arrogant and incompetent management that gets rich off other's back. K?

And YES I have a big beef with SWA and ATA.

try decaf there MZ....

what's your beef with ATA? they are an HONESTLY different airline...

 

[canyonblue]

And YES I have a big beef

I have a big beef also.

 

[Remington]

mega,
what is your beef with ATA and SWA?
ATA because your little saab job got swiped from you?
SWA because they are the single most sucessful airline EVER?
Just curious, thanx.

 

[720degpersec]

I have a big beef also.

Longer, bigger, faster.....the new A340-600 !

Heard UPS is going to go all Airbus. For crosstraining purposes...

 

[klhoard]

Longer, bigger, faster.....the new A340-600 !

Heard UPS is going to go all Airbus. For crosstraining purposes...

.
.
.
Ooops, someone should call their aircraft purchasing department, quick!! UPS just ordered some brand spankin' new 747's. (not an Airbus product)
.
.
.

 

[capt. megadeth]

mega,
what is your beef with ATA and SWA?
ATA because your little saab job got swiped from you?
SWA because they are the single most sucessful airline EVER?
Just curious, thanx.

Well, if you must know....

ATA because they let a profitable great little airline go down the toilet because they couldn't manage properly if their life depended on it.

SWA because I think they saw C8 as possible competition (think future here....ie. RJs kiddies. It's not like they are stupid obviously) and probably told ATA to shut them down.

ATA and SWA because a lot of great people lost their job for no really good reason.

The list goes on and on but those are the highlights.

Before ya all freak out, don't bother, because THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL I WILL EVER BELIEVE THAT SWA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SHUTDOWN OF C8! Now, excuse me....time to take the BP meds......

One more thing....for the record, I WAS NOT AT CHICAGO EXPRESS WHEN they closed their doors. I had already left.

Now, let's please get back to the original topic....I have beat this one to death already. Thank you.

 

[TAZ MAN]

Well, if you must know....

ATA because they let a profitable great little airline go down the toilet because they couldn't manage properly if their life depended on it.

SWA because I think they saw C8 as possible competition (think future here....ie. RJs kiddies. It's not like they are stupid obviously) and probably told ATA to shut them down.

ATA and SWA because a lot of great people lost their job for no really good reason.

The list goes on and on but those are the highlights.

Before ya all freak out, don't bother, because THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL I WILL EVER BELIEVE THAT SWA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SHUTDOWN OF C8! Now, excuse me....time to take the BP meds......

One more thing....for the record, I WAS NOT AT CHICAGO EXPRESS WHEN they closed their doors. I had already left.

Now, let's please get back to the original topic....I have beat this one to death already. Thank you.

So if Airtran got the deal you think that C8 would still be flying. And you "think" SWA told ATA to shut it down because of future competition with RJs.

We know your upset because of your friends and your, I think fiance, were affected by the shutdown. I admire your loyalty on this one.

You are holding much hate for unsubstantiated assumptions.

I have been furloughed twice. Never went back to either airline. I never took that personally. This is an extremely volatile industry. It has been since the beginning. Even freight will have its moments. It already has.

Its business. And its one that sucks. If we didn't like it so much, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[arthompson]

Its business. And its one that sucks. If we didn't like it so much, it wouldn't be an issue.[/QUOTE]

Amen Taz, None of us would be in this business if we didn't love what we do.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

Sometimes I think these union heads are being handing fists full of cash.

 

[capt. megadeth]

So if Airtran got the deal you think that C8 would still be flying. And you "think" SWA told ATA to shut it down because of future competition with RJs.

We know your upset because of your friends and your, I think fiance, were affected by the shutdown. I admire your loyalty on this one.

You are holding much hate for unsubstantiated assumptions.

I have been furloughed twice. Never went back to either airline. I never took that personally. This is an extremely volatile industry. It has been since the beginning. Even freight will have its moments. It already has.

Its business. And its one that sucks. If we didn't like it so much, it wouldn't be an issue.

1. Yes, I "think" that and so do a lot of people I know, including pilots at SWA

2. You are right, I should let go of the hate and use my energy elsewhere

3. Yes, I am paranoid about issues with freight as well.

4. Yes, it is an ugly industry

5. I understand SWA has a business to run and I don't blame them for looking out for their own interests but it doesn't mean I won't be pissed about it.

Take care.

 

[TAZ MAN]

1. Yes, I "think" that and so do a lot of people I know, including pilots at SWA

2. You are right, I should let go of the hate and use my energy elsewhere

3. Yes, I am paranoid about issues with freight as well.

4. Yes, it is an ugly industry

5. I understand SWA has a business to run and I don't blame them for looking out for their own interests but it doesn't mean I won't be pissed about it.

Take care.

I know SWA pilots as well. And I can say they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. The Chiefs have no idea. Maybe the VP of ops, but he isn't talking either. Its one of the traditions of the airline. So to say that SWA pilots think so as well....is again unsubstantiated and based on assumption with absolutely no evidence from anywhere.

ATA went bankrupt. C8 was a casualty because of that. Plain and simple.

Answer me one question. Where would C8 be today if ATA took the Airtran deal.

I actually see if there is to lay any blame its on C8's management. They are ultimately are the ones responsible for their own demise. Maybe without choice. They are the ones who set up the framework for their future that didn't work out.

Do yourself a favor and stop being pissed at the things we have no control of. Learn from them and move on like you have done. Your in the pool of a good airline that will be more likely to give you what we all deserve for our hard work, stability.

 

[Ty Webb]

Answer me one question. Where would C8 be today if ATA took the Airtran deal.

.

Probably sold off or spun off, but still flying. That would be my guess.

While we're at it . . . we have hired dozens of ATA pilots since the SWA buyout . How many ATA pilots has SWA hired? Friends at SWA tell me "not many". Any truth to that?

 

[capt. megadeth]

I know SWA pilots as well. And I can say they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. The Chiefs have no idea. Maybe the VP of ops, but he isn't talking either. Its one of the traditions of the airline. So to say that SWA pilots think so as well....is again unsubstantiated and based on assumption with absolutely no evidence from anywhere.

ATA went bankrupt. C8 was a casualty because of that. Plain and simple.

Answer me one question. Where would C8 be today if ATA took the Airtran deal.

I actually see if there is to lay any blame its on C8's management. They are ultimately are the ones responsible for their own demise. Maybe without choice. They are the ones who set up the framework for their future that didn't work out.

Do yourself a favor and stop being pissed at the things we have no control of. Learn from them and move on like you have done. Your in the pool of a good airline that will be more likely to give you what we all deserve for our hard work, stability.

Thanks for the input TAZ. You can stay in la la land all you want in regards to the SWA thing. How can you blame a management that did not have a choice? That's like blaming the gun manufacturers for someone's murder (ie. makes no sense whatsoever). I am not trying to be rude here, but have you been smoking crack tonight? Ok, I am done with this. Let's just agree to disagree. You think what you think and I will think what I think, K? Good nite. Let's let this horse lie.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Any truth to that?

Yes, a lot of truth. (hence, my other big beef with SWA since someone wanted to know). Every person from ATA that I know of that interviewed has been turned down.

 

[Tanner]

Yes, a lot of truth. (hence, my other big beef with SWA since someone wanted to know). Every person from ATA that I know of that interviewed has been turned down.

If you got hired by UPS, then get off this board and get a life or something! Geez.....This board is for all us losers trying to get a job....If I get hired back into the airline industry and I'm posting opinions on how people should prepare for a screwing at XYZ airline, someone....please shoot me!

 

[SkiFishFly]

Yes, a lot of truth. (hence, my other big beef with SWA since someone wanted to know). Every person from ATA that I know of that interviewed has been turned down.

A guy in my 737 type class was former ATA who was interviewed and hired.

 

[Widow's Son]

A person in my new hire class was ATA and I have flown with several since.

 

[elcapitan]

I know SWA pilots as well. And I can say they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. The Chiefs have no idea. Maybe the VP of ops, but he isn't talking either. Its one of the traditions of the airline. So to say that SWA pilots think so as well....is again unsubstantiated and based on assumption with absolutely no evidence from anywhere.

ATA went bankrupt. C8 was a casualty because of that. Plain and simple.

Answer me one question. Where would C8 be today if ATA took the Airtran deal.

I actually see if there is to lay any blame its on C8's management. They are ultimately are the ones responsible for their own demise. Maybe without choice. They are the ones who set up the framework for their future that didn't work out.

Do yourself a favor and stop being pissed at the things we have no control of. Learn from them and move on like you have done. Your in the pool of a good airline that will be more likely to give you what we all deserve for our hard work, stability.

YOU ARE ABSOULUTELY WRONG THAT IT WAS Chicage Express MANAGEMENTS FAULT.

Chicago Express CARRIED 100,000 PASSENGERS A MONTH IN AND OUT OF MIDWAY WITH 17 SAABS-IT WAS A HIGHLY EFFECIENT COMMUTER.

Chicago Express MADE MONEY FOR ATA - BETWEEN 1-2 MILLION A MONTH WHICH WAS THROWING MONEY DOWN A BLACK HOLE

Chicago Express MANGEMENT WANTED TO EXPAND THE AIRLINE BY ADDING CRJ's AND DOING CODESHARES-EVERY ATTEMPT WAS THWARTED BY ATA MANAGEMENT.

NEAR THE END WHEN ATA WAS GASPING FOR AIR-THEY BID ON THE CONTINENTAL EXPRESS FLYING BUT IT WAS TOO LATE-CONTINENTAL TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LOW BIDDER BY A LONG SHOT

IN SEPTEMBER OF 2004 - ATA TOLD Chicago Express MANAGEMENT THEY COULD DO WHATEVER THEY WANTED, THEY (ATA) WERE TO BUSY WITH THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. Chicago ExpressMANGEMENT SECURED AN ORDER FOR 13 CRJ's WITH NO MONEY DOWN. ATA THEN PROCEEDED TO NIX THAT ORDER.

IN OCTOBER OF 2004 - ATA TOLD Chicago Express MANGEMENT "CAN YOU GET THOSE CRJ's AGAIN". C8 MANAGEMENT WENT AND SECURED THE ORDER FOR THE CRJ's AGAIN!. AT THE LAST SECOND ATA CHANGED THEIR MIND AGAIN AND NIXED THE ORDER.

IN DECEMBER OF 2004 Chicago Express MANAGEMENT HAD WORKED OUT A CODESHARE WITH AIRTRAN - IF THEY WON THE DEAL.

REMEMBER THE BIG WERE GOING TO MOVE BACK TO IND PLAN. (ATA's IDEA) SO WE CUT OUR FLIGHTS BACK IN CHICAGO (REMEMBER THE 100,000 PEOPLE) AND STARTED FLYING INTRASTATE IND. WE WENT FROM FLYING AN AVERAGE OF 25 PEOPLE A FLIGHT TO 10. THE ATA (IND) CUSTOMER SERVICE COULD NOT HANDLE THE EIGHT SAABS ON THE GROUND - WE WERE LATE EVERY FLIGHT. THEN NWA COMES IN WITH CRJ's (YES - REMEMBER THOSE MARKETING PLANS) MATCHED ATA ON EVERY FLIGHT OUT OF IND (REMEMBER THOSE $29.00 FARES) AND DESTROYS ATA IN THEIR HOME TURF.

THEN THEY DECIDE TO MOVE BACK TO MDW (NOW I AM CONFUSED - CAN YOU THINK WHAT THE PASSENGERS WERE THINKING?). (OH, AND BY THE WAY CHICAGO IS THE #2 PASSENGER MARKET IN THE US AND WHAT IS IND?)

AT THAT POINT SWA (WINS THE DEAL!) AND LOANS ATA DIPP FINANCING. ATA ABRUPTLY DECIDES TO SHUTDOWN Chicago Express (MIND YOU THERE WAS NO WARNING). YOU CAN SURMISE THE REASON.

IF ATA HAD LET CHICAGO EXPRESS EXPAND THEY COULD HAVE HELPED WITH GETTING THEM OUT OF BANKRUPTCY. THERE WAS ALSO A PLAN TO PURCHASE CRJ-700's in SEPTEMBER OF 2002, WHICH WAS NEVER IMPLEMENTED AND COULD HAVE HELPED ATA SIGNIFICANTLY DURING THIS BANKRUPTCY.

ONE OF THE FUNNIEST IDEA's THAT CAME OUT OF THIS MESS WAS WHEN ATA WAS LOSING MONEY THE BIG ORDER OF THE DAY WAS TO UNSCREW LIGHT BULBS AND SAVE ELECTRICITY. THE REAL REASON IS THAT (ATA) JUST BLEW IT BY NOT DOING WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO MAKE THE COMPANY COST EFFICIENT SOONER RATHER THAN LATER. THEY JUST WAITED TO LONG AND WASTED TO MUCH MONEY. YOU DON"T GO INTO BANKRUPTCY WITH 20 MILLION IN THE BANK! THAT IS LIQUIDATION! THEY ARE EXTREMELY LUCKY TO BE EVEN FLYING TODAY!


SO-HOW WAS THIS CHICAGO EXPRESS'S MANGEMENT FAULT?

AGAIN - (AS JACK NICHOLSON WOULD SAY) YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH?

ANY QUESTIONS?

 

[Ty Webb]

ANY QUESTIONS?

Yeah. . . . wasn't Chicago Express a PFT outfit?

 

[scabseeker]

Yeah. . . . wasn't Chicago Express a PFT outfit?

Classic!

Wecome back ty.

 

[TAZ MAN]

Thanks for the input TAZ. You can stay in la la land all you want in regards to the SWA thing. How can you blame a management that did not have a choice? That's like blaming the gun manufacturers for someone's murder (ie. makes no sense whatsoever). I am not trying to be rude here, but have you been smoking crack tonight? Ok, I am done with this. Let's just agree to disagree. You think what you think and I will think what I think, K? Good nite. Let's let this horse lie.

Let this die if you want. I still think there is something to discuss.

At one time Express decided to hook up with ATA. Thats where I find fault in your management. They gave control away. Thats ultimately where their demise came from.

You were making money because of ATA. Feeding ATA. Without ATA your loads would have been much, much lower. You would need to be in management to see what difference the load factors would have been with ATA cutting back service. Likely a losing cause.

So Airtran agreed to a code share. Does that mean that C8 was automatically a success? I don't know of any successful low cost airline having a code-share with a regional. I honestly don't think it can work. If it did, why doesn't Airtran have a partner in Atlanta? Why doesn't someone start one up and make 1 to 2 million a month? It sounds like a done deal. Its because it doesn't fit the model. Otherwise you would see the LC's have feeders.

I'm sorry your ATA friends are not getting hired at SWA. But I am told that almost every SWA class has ATA pilots in there. I don't blame SWA for being just as selective with the ATA pilots as anyone else. SWA didn't put ATA in bankruptcy. They didn't furlough their pilots. Why should they change their standards to hire some that just are not a fit?

No, I'm not smokin crack. But I can see why you got turned down by SWA. You really are not a fit. You would have been just as miserable over there as you are now. But thats OK. You are now where you really want to be. You said you hate PAX's. At SWA they are very customer orientated. You would have struggled with that.

So you want to let this horse die? Then let it die. But I feel sorry for your strong dislike of people.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Yeah. . . . wasn't Chicago Express a PFT outfit?

It was a long time ago, but not for the last 5 or so years.

TAZ,
The best thing that ever happened to me was being turned down by SWA. If I got hired there I would be on 3rd year pay, about 800 pilots below me and it would be really hard to leave that even for cargo. I am sure you can understand. Hence, it was truly a blessing in disguise (yeah yeah yeah, I know some of you are saying it was a blessing for SWA too.....whatever). There are some people that love dealing with people and some that don't. I don't like dealing with and kissing peoples a$$es. I am not fake, I call it as I see it and I don't go around being "politically correct". I know some people don't like that but I would rather some not like me than be fake like, unfortunately, a lot of people in this world. So anyways, you are right, I am not a good fit for SWA and they certainly saw that in the interview.....thank God.

 

[Dennis Miller]

I call it as I see it and I don't go around being "politically correct".

Did you, or have you ever, applied for or interviewed for the SWA Type Rating Scholarship for women? And are you, or have you ever, been part of the Women in Aviation group? If you answer yes to either I would find you far from "Politically Incorrect". You would be using “Political Correctness” to further yourself, therefore sustaining the very structure you claim to deride.

 

[miles otoole]

Did you, or have you ever, applied for or interviewed for the SWA Type Rating Scholarship for women? And are you, or have you ever, been part of the Women in Aviation group? If you answer yes to either I would find you far from "Politically Incorrect". You would be using “Political Correctness” to further yourself, therefore sustaining the very structure you claim to deride.

Hey, you're not supposed to have known that. I am sure they had the same, "I don't kiss people's A$$es" during the interview. "Now entering the spin zone." Good luck with telling some crusty 'ol CA at UPS that you are not there to kiss his A$$ when some will expect it. hehehe