Why are the 1700+ trannies pilots not recalling their status reps?

[birdman1]

Why are the 1700+ trannies pilots not recalling their status reps? I mean serious…they appoint a clueless MEC chairmen…negotiate an industry failing contract…put together a supposedly all-star merger committee, allows them to operate autonomously…followed by the shocked reaction to the negotiated SLI…then the ALPA representatives decides to gamble the future of 1700+ pilots by shooting the deal down. COME ON MAN!!! Have you not learn from both the past and the history of this union. ALPA has been known to lie and misleads pilots down a very dark road. The bottom line is that ALPA leads to failure. They failed the pilots at Continental. They failed the pilots at Eastern Airlines. They failed the pilots at TWA. They failed the pilots at USAir. They failed the pilots at United. They failed the pilots at Delta. Do you want to be next?

 

[JT12345]

lol

Yeah man 1700 of us thought this deal was awesome but the 7 LEC reps did not agree with us.

What planet are you from birdman?

 

[Empennage]

lol

Yeah man 1700 of us thought this deal was awesome but the 7 LEC reps did not agree with us.

What planet are you from birdman?

That's like your senators electing the president.

 

[tzskipper]

I wonder how the pilots of SWA view of their BOD (Swapa) may change, should arbitration not work out in their favor?

Interesting times.

S

 

[E2LSO]

Is there any requirement that it get sent to the membership? Or does the MEC vote stop all proceedings?

 

[fam62c]

Why are the 1700+ trannies pilots not recalling their status reps? I mean serious…they appoint a clueless MEC chairmen…negotiate an industry failing contract…put together a supposedly all-star merger committee, allows them to operate autonomously…followed by the shocked reaction to the negotiated SLI…then the ALPA representatives decides to gamble the future of 1700+ pilots by shooting the deal down. COME ON MAN!!! Have you not learn from both the past and the history of this union. ALPA has been known to lie and misleads pilots down a very dark road. The bottom line is that ALPA leads to failure. They failed the pilots at Continental. They failed the pilots at Eastern Airlines. They failed the pilots at TWA. They failed the pilots at USAir. They failed the pilots at United. They failed the pilots at Delta. Do you want to be next?

I will admit that this would have been a whole lot easier if the MEC had reviewed the proposal before it was a TA and rejected it then. If there were minimum standards that this deal apparently didn't meet it would have been good if the merger committee had known about those requirements prior to entering into discussions and completing a TA. There was a severe lapse in communication somewhere within the AT union command structure that resulted in this unfortunate drama.

Having said that, I also believe that it was a mistake for SW managment to get involved in a seniority list integration that should have been between the unions. If they really wanted to get involved to "grease the skids" and help a deal along they should have waited until deep into mediation when hopefully the process had had more time to bear fruit. I know (at least I think) they meant well and were trying to help but their arrival at the table created the appearance of "2-against-1" and may have put unnecessary pressure on the AT negotiators and created some misunderstandings. I think SW management made an (unintentional) error in judgement by trying to rush the process before it had a chance to work. The most movement in any negotiation usually happens at the very end of the process and the closer the two sides were allowed to get to arbitration without interference from management the more likely it was that a more creative deal would have been reached. Let's not blame the AT guys for everything.

This wasn't a failure of ALPA as much as it was a failure of the union at a local level. One thing that can be good or bad about ALPA depending on the actors involved is that ALPA gives the groups at each carrier a high degree of autonomy. Sometimes this works if you have the right pilots involved in leadership and a reasonable pilot group but often it doesn't.


We'll see how good SWAPA is someday when they get tested with a management team/CEO that's not as benevolent as the excellent leaders who have run SW in the past. Just remember that SW is only one bad CEO away from going from a great place to work to a lousy place to work. All it takes is a few bad quarters, a low stock price and some activist shareholders to get a Frank Lorenzo style guy into the corner office. It's a thin line between LUV and hate.

 

[SWA/FO]

tranny season!

 

[Kharma Police]

lol

Yeah man 1700 of us thought this deal was awesome but the 7 LEC reps did not agree with us.

What planet are you from birdman?

If the deal was so bad then it would have failed but we will never know because they wouldn't let us vote.

 

[JT12345]

There was a thread on here about SWAPA being a joke. I can tell you from my experience they are far from it. Man I want them on my side. GK too!

 

[Bill Nelson]

There was a thread on here about SWAPA being a joke. I can tell you from my experience they are far from it. Man I want them on my side. GK too!

Hopefully your MEC didn't blow that chance for you today.

 

[SWA Aviator]

The AirTran Pilot could have become the highest paid pilots in Atlanta, making more than a Delta 777 captain! As the turbine blades turn! Good luck boys and girls!!

 

[Pilot Knob]

Do you eat with that mouth? God...you people post some hateful stuff.

SWA Aviator edited his post, but I stand by my comment. We are, after all, still just pilots trying to support our families. And maybe spend one Christmas with them before they graduate.

 

[On Your Six]

The SWA pilots will learn what arbitration is all about, and that scares them. Lawyers will do the talking, and arbitrators will decide the future. Who's got the popcorn? One thing is likely, the bottom 650 won't only be Airtran pilots.



OYS

 

[puddlejumper101]

I will admit that this would have been a whole lot easier if the MEC had reviewed the proposal before it was a TA and rejected it then. If there were minimum standards that this deal apparently didn't meet it would have been good if the merger committee had known about those requirements prior to entering into discussions and completing a TA. There was a severe lapse in communication somewhere within the AT union command structure that resulted in this unfortunate drama.

Having said that, I also believe that it was a mistake for SW managment to get involved in a seniority list integration that should have been between the unions. If they really wanted to get involved to "grease the skids" and help a deal along they should have waited until deep into mediation when hopefully the process had had more time to bear fruit. I know (at least I think) they meant well and were trying to help but their arrival at the table created the appearance of "2-against-1" and may have put unnecessary pressure on the AT negotiators and created some misunderstandings. I think SW management made an (unintentional) error in judgement by trying to rush the process before it had a chance to work. The most movement in any negotiation usually happens at the very end of the process and the closer the two sides were allowed to get to arbitration without interference from management the more likely it was that a more creative deal would have been reached. Let's not blame the AT guys for everything.

This wasn't a failure of ALPA as much as it was a failure of the union at a local level. One thing that can be good or bad about ALPA depending on the actors involved is that ALPA gives the groups at each carrier a high degree of autonomy. Sometimes this works if you have the right pilots involved in leadership and a reasonable pilot group but often it doesn't.


We'll see how good SWAPA is someday when they get tested with a management team/CEO that's not as benevolent as the excellent leaders who have run SW in the past. Just remember that SW is only one bad CEO away from going from a great place to work to a lousy place to work. All it takes is a few bad quarters, a low stock price and some activist shareholders to get a Frank Lorenzo style guy into the corner office. It's a thin line between LUV and hate.

I totally agree, there are no guarantees and no one is entitled to anything. I think SWA went in because the faster this gets done, the less bickering between the groups. The longer this takes, the more tribalism there is. That was their intent, plus let's not forget, SWA wants ALPA gone, the sooner the better.

It was a gamble the company took, knowing that if it worked there would be harmony down the road. Arbitration will not bring harmony, not for a while, so it was a gamble worth taking. However, now that it didn't work the tribalism and finger-pointing will be worse. It already is...90% of the pilot group (number is a guess) right now is in shock...and really have nothing nice to say about Airtran. I am sure in ATL the feeling is mutual. So what is GK going to do now since this is what he wanted to avoid in the first place? Remains to be seen...at least it wasn't his own guys that turned his deal down.

I also might add that we know SWA is one bad day or one bad person from becoming a joke. This can happen to any company at any time, especially publicly traded companies. They have also managed to weed out the trouble makers (especially at the BOD level) for 40 years. Shoot, Needleman got fired from here...but you are right there is a thin line between luv and hate.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

tranny season!

wabbit season!:beer:

 

[CaptWidgeon]

The SWA pilots will learn what arbitration is all about, and that scares them. Lawyers will do the talking, and arbitrators will decide the future. Who's got the popcorn? One thing is likely, the bottom 650 won't only be Airtran pilots.



OYS

but in the end it is mr kelly who will make the final decision. does he have the current swa pilots backs? even the arby's don't know that.

 

[JT12345]

The SWA pilots will learn what arbitration is all about, and that scares them. Lawyers will do the talking, and arbitrators will decide the future. Who's got the popcorn? One thing is likely, the bottom 650 won't only be Airtran pilots.



OYS

Popcorn?

No.

Not here on the AAI side. Arbitration will scare us too.

 

[JT12345]

I will admit that this would have been a whole lot easier if the MEC had reviewed the proposal before it was a TA and rejected it then. If there were minimum standards that this deal apparently didn't meet it would have been good if the merger committee had known about those requirements prior to entering into discussions and completing a TA. There was a severe lapse in communication somewhere within the AT union command structure that resulted in this unfortunate drama.

Having said that, I also believe that it was a mistake for SW managment to get involved in a seniority list integration that should have been between the unions. If they really wanted to get involved to "grease the skids" and help a deal along they should have waited until deep into mediation when hopefully the process had had more time to bear fruit. I know (at least I think) they meant well and were trying to help but their arrival at the table created the appearance of "2-against-1" and may have put unnecessary pressure on the AT negotiators and created some misunderstandings. I think SW management made an (unintentional) error in judgement by trying to rush the process before it had a chance to work. The most movement in any negotiation usually happens at the very end of the process and the closer the two sides were allowed to get to arbitration without interference from management the more likely it was that a more creative deal would have been reached. Let's not blame the AT guys for everything.

This wasn't a failure of ALPA as much as it was a failure of the union at a local level. One thing that can be good or bad about ALPA depending on the actors involved is that ALPA gives the groups at each carrier a high degree of autonomy. Sometimes this works if you have the right pilots involved in leadership and a reasonable pilot group but often it doesn't.


We'll see how good SWAPA is someday when they get tested with a management team/CEO that's not as benevolent as the excellent leaders who have run SW in the past. Just remember that SW is only one bad CEO away from going from a great place to work to a lousy place to work. All it takes is a few bad quarters, a low stock price and some activist shareholders to get a Frank Lorenzo style guy into the corner office. It's a thin line between LUV and hate.

Good points about both sides.

+1

 

[On Your Six]

but in the end it is mr kelly who will make the final decision. does he have the current swa pilots backs? even the arby's don't know that.

No, Wall St will help him decide. This merger is good for his shareholders, period. He will blame the arbitrator, and that will be that.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Popcorn?

No.

Not here on the AAI side. Arbitration will scare us too.

Um, why? Your airline had the same size planes. Your airline was stable financially, making profits. Your airline had assets that SWA wanted, like ATL, LGA/DCA slots. And, SWA wants your planes on order. All of that equals a better deal than they offered you. Will GK then give you a B Scale afterwards? Only if he wants a Civil War, and I would think he probably does NOT.


OYS

 

[slaquer5]

No, Wall St will help him decide. This merger is good for his shareholders, period. He will blame the arbitrator, and that will be that.


OYS

Dudette,

Do you any life outside of FI ? Very pathetic life.

 

[whalepilot747]

7 guys are smarter than 1700? I dunno, I think trannies at the very least deserved to put their future in their own hands. F9 did then same thing and look where they are. Whether I was a yes or a no vote, I would want the opportunity to vote, to decide my own future. ALPA will never get it, it is a different world here but the paranoia and jadedness from ALPA will never see it. I hope that if/when trannies show up you guys don't spread that cancer here......

 

[Daddy]

FWIW, the latest from SWA is that Gary really is extremely pissed off over this. Not sure if that means he is going to his room to smoke and color or if he is really to go deal some 717's, but a guy I know at the GO says he has never seen him this PO'ed before.

 

[madjack]

I agree with GL, that Wall St will drive Mr Kelly's decisions, combining two groups of polarized pilots and thereby ruining the LUV at SWA will not go over well with the Stockholders, myself included...I realize that operating AAI separately is a low probability event but it is extremely high risk...

 

[flygirlqt]

This will turn into another colossal FAIL on ALPA's part.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

No skin in the game here, but I think everyone's forgetting that we pilots aren't the center of the universe. A good deal for the company is a good deal for shareholders. If the deal made sense, they're not going to stop it because of one work group who feels entitled. I personally wish good things for both sides of the argument. We don't need another polarized unhappy pilot group in the industry.

 

[Ty Webb]

No skin in the game here, but I think everyone's forgetting that we pilots aren't the center of the universe. A good deal for the company is a good deal for shareholders. If the deal made sense, they're not going to stop it because of one work group who feels entitled. I personally wish good things for both sides of the argument. We don't need another polarized unhappy pilot group in the industry.

All very true.

There is a process agreement that was signed by all four parties. We need to follow the process we have all agreed to, and to do it like the professional pilots we are. Other work groups will be watching.

 

[DougCorp-9]

FWIW, the latest from SWA is that Gary really is extremely pissed off over this. Not sure if that means he is going to his room to smoke and color or if he is really to go deal some 717's, but a guy I know at the GO says he has never seen him this PO'ed before.

Of course he is pissed. Now he has to work on a new plan to get this thing to work. In spite of all the threats on here I believe GK is an honorable man. He is not going to screw over 1700 of his employees (yes we are SWA employees) who never even got a say in the future of their hard earned careers. This will probably get quite contentious but in the end it will get worked out somehow. I really wish I had gotten a chance to vote!

 

[shootr]

No skin in the game here, but I think everyone's forgetting that we pilots aren't the center of the universe. A good deal for the company is a good deal for shareholders. If the deal made sense, they're not going to stop it because of one work group who feels entitled. I personally wish good things for both sides of the argument. We don't need another polarized unhappy pilot group in the industry.

You're correct in that we're not the only groups that have to integrate. The other powerful unions, the FA's and the mechs, have been waiting and watching. As we go, so will they. IMHO, that's why GK pushed for a quick agreement between us. He thought we would be the easy ones and everyone would follow. From my interactions with FA's and mechs yesterday, they are far more PO'd about the whole thing than the pilots are. If we go militant, I know they will.

This is not how I wanted this to all go down and I wish no ill-will on anybody. I have friends at AT. I only see 3 possible outcomes, now...

1. Ugly for SWA pilots
2. Ugly for AT pilots
3. GK breaks out his wallet and makes us both "whole" so an agreement can be reached (I see this possibility as remote)

Our group will now fight to the death to try to stop #1. #3 is unlikely. #2 is NOT what I wished for but dang...I just don't see how I can hope for anything else. It's not personal at all. But I gotta protect my family.

shootr

 

[fam62c]

FWIW, the latest from SWA is that Gary really is extremely pissed off over this. Not sure if that means he is going to his room to smoke and color or if he is really to go deal some 717's, but a guy I know at the GO says he has never seen him this PO'ed before.

I don't know, this CEO is a top-notch professional and I'm sure he's disappointed because he wants this done but I'm also sure they looked at all the angles prior to doing this deal and they knew coming in that seniority arbitration between several unions was the likely outcome.

I wouldn't blame him for being upset that so much valuable time and effort was wasted for nothing. There was no need for all of this drama and it's unfortunate that they went public with the announcement of a TA that later got rejected without ever getting to a membership vote, it doesn't look good. These things are never easy but the AT union should have been clear on what minimum standards they needed to see in a TA to send it to the membership BEFORE they allowed a deal to be reached; this was just bad form that made things harder than they needed to be.