White House Bent on destroying Air Line Pilots via Foreign Control

[I.P. Freley]

White House Bent on destroying Air Line Pilots via Foreign Control

Hmmm... I wonder... Since this didn't happen, could it be that someone overreacted or misrepresented the facts?

Not that I KNOW or anything, just curious.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

An astute observation. There's also revulsion against supporting a side on any issue if some of that side's other supporters are people you can't stand. :angryfire

Its called BRANDING....

Consumerism does this all the time... Are you ar Ford or GM guy? Coke or Pepsi?

Hmmm... I wonder... Since this didn't happen, could it be that someone overreacted or misrepresented the facts?

Not that I KNOW or anything, just curious.

Since this hasn't happened YET.

The next round of negotiations is scheduled for 2Q08.

The more pilots we have supporting..... well ourselves... the better.....

Get informed.

www.alpa.org

www.ifalpa.org

 

[I.P. Freley]

Get informed.

Thank you for your concern.

 

[Jet41]

Hmmm... I wonder... Since this didn't happen, could it be that someone overreacted or misrepresented the facts?

Not that I KNOW or anything, just curious.

overreact or misrepresent the facts...on a web site forum? no way!

 

[hawkerjet]

OK I'll Bite,
What's wrong with having foreign ownership in air carriers? I assumed it would bring in more competition and improved service and pricing due to the competition.
Also wouldn't it allow our companies to operate overseas thus increasing our opportunities?
I may be wrong and do not now the specifics that some of you may be privy to but would like to know what I am missing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK I'll Bite,
What's wrong with having foreign ownership in air carriers? I assumed it would bring in more competition and improved service and pricing due to the competition.
Also wouldn't it allow our companies to operate overseas thus increasing our opportunities?
I may be wrong and do not now the specifics that some of you may be privy to but would like to know what I am missing.

What makes you think you and your fellow United States pilots will be the ones flying the jet?


There are more pilots globally that have a lower standard of living than us, that would gladly operate our jets for pennies on the dollar.

There is a reason why all the maritime freighters are operated by Ol East Soviet bloc Officers and Philippine sailors.. meaning the citizens of lesser countries with lower standards of living that do it cheaper.

Foreign ownership is not only the problem... The brand alliances such as Star Alliance, OneWorld and Skyteam are also a threat.... We saw it briefly and similarly, when KLM and NWA got in bed.... KLM wanted to do more if not most of the transoceanic flying.... How'd you like to be limited to narrowbody domestic flying... for all US pilots? (SWA is going to have to tap the int'l market...)

The US domestic market is huge... and we dominate it. Take for example the Japanese and their domestic market... simply put they want a bigger piece of the pie and will negotiate that they should have more pacific routes.

Combine foreign ownership of say United Airlines majority owned by Lufthansa and the ability shift flying within the Star Alliance is very real. United will sell its B747's (widebodies) to LH and LH pilots will do all or most of the flying...

But the LH pilots are really not the threat.. These alliances will allow assets shifted to the eastern European or Asian companies such as Air China, LOT... or the new Transnational Airlines.

Transnational Airlines can be very problematic for labor. Under what law to they follow? These type Airlines have the ability to move labor and capitol over political boundaries... These types companies, such as Ryan Air, and their markets are years ahead of the law....

Ryan Air, A low Cost Carrier, operated by Michael O'leary, makes Jonathan Orienstein look like an alter boy. He treats labor like disposable diapers. With wicked loans for training, he has pilots on an indentured servitude type work agreement. Finally, the money made on these carriers isn't necessarily in the cost of the ticket.. its in the "extras". Checked luggage, food, blankets, wheel chair service, all which the passenger pays ala carte. So you can see how Ryan Air doesn't value its pilots cause they are not the true revenue producers...

Finally the LCC model is being copied globally. The problem is... Southwest isn't the model. Its O'Leary's Ryan Air.

Don't forget cabatoge. NYC can't hold back the Atlantic if it was to raise sea level 3 ft. Labor unions can't hold back global market forces... Cabatoge will probably come to the USA....the goal is to ensure that US Pilots are protected...

All of this... the global market place, globalism, is really about the distribution of wealth and those who control it. Labor is a cost to be controlled. Why should American pilots with their hyperconsumption, hyperconsumerism lifestyle that demands a large annual income be placated when a third world country pilot will do it happily for nickels....

But let's be clear.... it is not the Third World pilot that is the problem..... many of these pilots fear their company before regulators... In the USA, we rather fear the FAA. With PIC authority if we don't think it is safe we tell the company to pound sand. Not so in Africa, S. America and Asia for example.. Their companies tell them to fly unsafe and if they don't like it they can find another job. A reality hard for us to comprehend...

The point is this.... we must understand the airline global market place... it is already effecting us. If we don't help pilots in third world countries.. to raise their standard.. then we will all go down....



Advise if links are needed to get educated...

 

[hawkerjet]

I don't fully follow your reasoning. First, maritime ops and aviation are different, like apples and oranges. I do see the connection you are trying to make with the low wages but that doesn't carry over. I do see your United / Lufthansa comparison but ask this. Don't both airlines have strong unions? What would be the difference between say American buying United. Two different unions but I'll bet they won't merge 1 for 1. I believe that competition would provide better service and lower prices. It's working in other parts of the world and I don't see why it wouldn't work here. Even if a third world country airline took over it would still have to abide by the same regs the US carriers do. Also we saw an improvement in aviation services and pricing after deregulation in 1978. The naysayers were saying maintenance would go out the crapper but it actually improved. One problem I see that would threaten jobs more than anything we've discussed is that if someone is willing to work for crappy wages there will always be turmoil, and I can't see that going away.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't fully follow your reasoning. First, maritime ops and aviation are different, like apples and oranges.

True... however, why is there no US registered freighters sailing the seas? Why are land locked countries registering ships...? They are different, but yet they move good and services.

http://www.wesjones.com/anarchy.htm

One element that has us in favor... CRAF and security..

I do see the connection you are trying to make with the low wages but that doesn't carry over.

Again.. why are there no US Officers on ships except within waters of the US.....

I do see your United / Lufthansa comparison but ask this. Don't both airlines have strong unions?

Strong is subjective. Both are part of IFALPA. But we are talking about global market forces. If they are both strong unions.. what do you believe they would do?

What would be the difference between say American buying United. Two different unions but I'll bet they won't merge 1 for 1. I believe that competition would provide better service and lower prices. It's working in other parts of the world and I don't see why it wouldn't work here. Even if a third world country airline took over it would still have to abide by the same regs the US carriers do.

Do foreign carriers abide by US law when they fly in the USA or ICAO? In addition, all laws are subject to change via lobbying.. or whoever has the most money.

Age 60 changed. Open Skies is here.. negotiations are in process... March 08 is in two months...!!

Also we saw an improvement in aviation services and pricing after deregulation in 1978. The naysayers were saying maintenance would go out the crapper but it actually improved.

Jetblue flies thier airbuses to S. America to have cheap labor do D checks. NWA flies 757 and widebodies to aisa to have it done...

One problem I see that would threaten jobs more than anything we've discussed is that if someone is willing to work for crappy wages there will always be turmoil, and I can't see that going away.

Correct... but that is not exclusive to the world market... many pilots in the USA are willing to work for crappy wages...

They are not the problem.... we must work with all pilots!


Organizations like IFALPA are not regulatory... there for the only way for pilots to be effective is have consensus... so.. on the worlds stage when those who control the distribution of wealth want to change a law or policy and one pilot says No... then guess who gets thier way... but if IFALPA says.. the pilots of the world will not do that... its get attention...

Get informed... get active...

 

[Howard Hughes]

I voted for Bush the first time. I have no respect for Bush after watching his recklace abandon for the airline industry. Anyone will be better than Bush....we hope!

 

[hawkerjet]

I see your points and respect your opinions. You and I come from two different jobs. I'm guessing you're in a union and I am not. ( corporate) We share similar problems but are much smaller in my field. We do have foreign pilots coming in and taking jobs away from US Citizens and they are not supposed to be paid according to their student visas, most are. I have brought this to the attention of every FSDO I am based at, so that FAA giving checkrides can check passport and visas for foreign pilots that are 135 ,and request an immigrations officer also ,if need be. As far as foreign ownership goes they have recently revoked a Part 135 certificate because the feds believed that the foreign influence was far more than 49%. ( The name escapes me now but it was a large certificate with over 100 airplanes, I believe based in the San Francisco/San Jose area)
I guess what we are talking about is a living wage for each job description. If the wages are paid then the job will get done efficiently and correctly. If maintenance can get done in house for the same cost then there would be no need for out sourcing. But then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I wish you good luck in your future...