Which way to go-SWA or JetBlue

[HOUMAN]

BamBam
This thread is interesting. It is hard to get good advice when there is a conflict of interest (i.e. SWA poolies telling you to stay at jetBlue so they can move up on the "list", or jetBlue guys telling you to bail so they can move up a notch on the old senority list).
Again.... Good luck on your choice.

 

[Muddauber]

Muddauber -- You obviously don't understand the A320 if you think the autopilot cannot be completely disconnected. The controls do not "lock up" in the approach mode. If you don't understand the aircraft, then you have no business making these statements here.

I understand the Bus and the accidents they've had because the crew couldn't overcome the automation. Read the reports.

Something I don't know about the airplane is - does the A320 use the same type of all composite vertical fin assembly as the A300?

From a prior life, I remember when PentaStar got their Airbuses. At first the senior Gulfstream Pilots were clamoring to get into the airplane - after flying it they were clamoring to get out of it.

Do you remember when after the Strausberg accident the joke in the industry was, " What's the difference between an Airbus 320 and a McCullough Chainsaw? And the answer was: " About a thousand trees a minute."

Muddy

 

[JayDub]

Bullcrap meter is pegged.

I understand the Bus and the accidents they've had because the crew couldn't overcome the automation. Read the reports.

There's never been an A-320 family accident with the autopilot engaged.

From a prior life, I remember when PentaStar got their Airbuses. At first the senior Gulfstream Pilots were clamoring to get into the airplane - after flying it they were clamoring to get out of it.

IF this conversation happened at all, I suspect it was just with one person. We have hired (or atleast interviewed) half of the American pilots from that department. I had two of them act as my F.O on multiple trips. That was never the sentiment expressed from either of these two guys. First, they had had a gut-full of the Gee Whiz (G-IV) flying. They'd been to every destination they ever go and had the muscle cramps from that little cockpit to prove it. Airbus trips were more likely three or four three-day trips a month to a darn nice place to have an over night. Not a bad way of life. Second, neither these guys, or any one they were aware of, got a Boeing type to fly a "real" airplane. In fact, they could have had Gulfstream jobs, but turned them down.

Do you remember when after the Strausberg accident the joke in the industry was, " What's the difference between an Airbus 320 and a McCullough Chainsaw? And the answer was: " About a thousand trees a minute."

How about we don't try anymore jokes? If you insist, I heard a real funny one about a 737 and a gas station...

The only military 737 we lost during that period of time was for traditional reasons - Ron Brown's demographically selected unqualified crew.

How many 737's does the military fly? Not exactly representative. If you want to go that route, let's compare the number of military 737 accidents to the number of military A-320 accidents. Seems to me the running total would be 1-0.

Bambam,

This is one of those questions your Dad used to answer for you; "if you have to ask, I think you already know the answer." Best of luck in one of the best choices a man could possibly have to make right now. Take care.

JayDub

 

[Race Pilot]

Do you remember when after the Strausberg accident the joke in the industry was, " What's the difference between an Airbus 320 and a McCullough Chainsaw? And the answer was: " About a thousand trees a minute."

I was going to stay out of this Airbus vs. Boeing thing but I must now say this; people died in that accident so it's not real funny. If that's all you guys have to talk about while flying then you must have a very boring job.

BTW, I have flown a few of Seattle's finest planes as well as some built in Georgia and others as well. I am now learning to fly the Airbus and I must say this is the most awesome airplane I've ever seen. I have been on many of the NG Boeings as well as some of the smaller toy (read corporate) aircraft and none compare to what the Airbus is capable of doing. And what's great about it is it's real fun to hand fly too. Maybe we don't do it a whole lot (work smarter, not harder) but when we do it's a blast.

"Please, can't we just all get along" Rodney King

 

[UM#1]

Re: Bullcrap meter is pegged.

There's never been an A-320 family accident with the autopilot engaged.


JayDub

Are you Sure?

From the Airdisaster.com website:

11 years ago today, on January 20, 1992, an Air Inter Airbus A320-111 crashed while on approach to Strasbourg, France. 87 of the 96 passengers and crew aboard were killed.

While on approach into Strasbourg the aircraft impacted the side of a mountain. The cause of the crash was found to be a faulty design in an autopilot mode selector switch which led the flight crew to inadvertently select a 3,300 foot per minute descent rate on the approach instead of the desired 3.3° flight path angle.

 

[RightBettor]

Look deep...

Look deep into my avatar and screen name and there you'll find the answer. Want to know which company is the best? You'll likely have to wait until you retire to know for sure. Meanwhile know the layout of the table, the rules, the odds for each bet, the house advantage on those bets, and roll the dice my friend. When you retire you can ask, "So, did the dice win?"

As for me I am going to SWA in the near future and I'll certainly do my part over the next 29 years to see that the dice win at Southwest.

"Change one hundred! Good luck sir."

 

[JayDub]

The cause of the crash was found to be a faulty design in an autopilot mode selector switch which led the flight crew to inadvertently select a 3,300 foot per minute descent rate on the approach instead of the desired 3.3° flight path angle.

It's called an FCU. It's the panel the altitude selector is located on. It's a direct interface for the auto-pilot, which doesn't mean the actual auto-pilot was engaged. I'll try to find a more in-depth report when I have a second. I am Mr. Mom today, so I'll be running around.

Again, I don't mean to fan the flames on this "Boeing vs. Airbus" thing, but there were way too many inaccuracies to let pass. IMHO, when it comes down to it, quality of life is a whole lot more to do with the original topic than who makes the airplanes you'll fly. I'd rather be home 17 days a month than to fly a rocket ship for 25 days a month.

Take Care.

JayDub

 

[AlbieF15]

Interesting thread so far....now a couple random thoughts since I'm on a long layover.

TRI STAR DRIVER--you're right. You CAN have fun at other companies besides SWA. Not a slam on anyone, but I spent T-Day in INDY at a hotel with about 70 other FDX guys, and it was like a squadron/FDX training/UPT reunion. It was one of the highlights of my first year on the line. Had fun on quite a few other nights when I do (gulp) hub turn (rare occassion!) and bump into tons of guys I know from college, UPT, or AF assignments. I've met guys I've fought on DACT deployments, friends of friends, etc....and it usually IS kind of fun catching up and shooting the breeze (even if it IS 1 a.m) over coffee or breakfast. No...I don't get boobies in the face from those great looking SWA flight attendents, but then again....I married above myself and the fact that I don't get that kind of temptation around only makes my wife a tad bit happier when I'm away on the road. (I still think FDX guys need IDBoobies, sort of like ID90s, but I digress....)

DGS--I understand your loyalty to JB, and how you might wonder why anyone would consider leaving. Point to ponder is the fact this guy likely has been thinking SWA for 5, 10, 15? years, and all of a sudden he has to let go of a his life's dream job. When I was interviewed at JetBlue, I was a Delta wannabe since about age 18 (freshman year at AU had a roomie who's dad was a Delta Captain). After researching, flying JB, and looking at the industry, I actually figured out I'd more than likely be waaay better off at JB (even prior to 9/11) due to the unique opportunity to start so early in a company and get senior so quickly. So...even though I was excited about Jetblue, knew it was likely to be the best place to start my career that fall, when I drive through ATL on 85 and countless Delta 757s take off over my head I can't help but remember how BAD I wanted to do that one day. Bam2 may not be going to SWA...but when he finally gets the call from his former "dream" job you have to understand a certain amount of wistfulness and indecision.

Family considerations for domiciles go beyond "I like this city's recreation, climate, schools, etc". I have older in-laws and a widowed mother...moving has serious ramifications for a lot of other people in my world besides me. Another part of the equation is commuting and obligations to the ANG or Reserves. I don't know if B2 is considering continuing his service, but I urge most guys who CAN to DO it. As I wrestled with my FDX verses JB choice, I had pretty much decided to either do minimum participation in the ANG or quit after a year or two and move closer to a JB city if I went with JB. However, the sickening sights on 9/11 convinced me that no.....d@mn it....I HAD to stay in the ANG to continue to serve. Leaving now, after we had been attacked, just didn't "feel" right, and I thought if I quit at this point I'd have a hard time looking in the mirror. My ANG unit, like many out there, has a 50 mile radius rule. You can live where you like--as long as you can get to work in a hour! Faced with a double commute for 6 years (FLL was NOT official at the time...in fact LGB was likely the next pilot base at JB), I chose instead to work for a great company that just happened to be within driving distance in a pinch. I won't go into all the pros/cons again...that was another thread...but the point was it wasn't an easy choice and there were a lot more complex issues than "this company isn't stable enough" or "its too new", etc. BamBam is likely dealing with a lot of issues that are well outside the scope of the fine folks at either company. Instead of getting torqued at guys who leave JB for other carriers, look at it as validation that the guys JB hires are the kind of guys that are in demand at other carriers even when thousands of qualified pilots are on the street.

And...if Dean really does read the theads.....I wish he send me a PM just so I could tell him again how much I appreciated the offer and how torn I was to have to go another direction. I'm sure if Bam2 stays or goes....he will also have some conflicting emotions.

Race pilot--hope your happy! I know your choice was tough, too! I can't imagine, especially with the safety net of a military retirement, a better place to have fun than Jetblue. If I'd been in the service long enough to retire like you and Flipper perhaps I'd be there too.

As for the 737 verses airbus discussion, the fact is they are both deathtraps waiting to kill hundreds of inncents lives. The primary reason is because neither has a flight engineer like the 727 or an RFO like the MD-11 to keep the captain and f/o fed, watered, hot or cool enough, on speed and on altitude during approaches, and generally happy. So...all you 737 and airbus Nazis consider yourself corrected and chastised.

See you at the tables, Right Bettor!

 

[Yahtzee]

PS, I’m sure that Yatzee will be happy to take whatever job you turn down!

Beechdriver,

With all the qualified folks in the applicant pools at JB or SWA, it could be a long time before I hear from either JB or SWA. Heck, I'm still hoping for one of the SWA update letters. But I appreciate the thought! Please tell the family hello and by the way, Bill C. says "Hi"

Bam Bam...Congrats! Good on you for being in this position.

Last week I was put in a similiar situation with a solid offer from one AMC Reserve unit, and then the strong possibility of flying in the reserve unit where I'm currently stationed. For the past five days, my stomach has been in knots, knowing the movers are schdeduled to come next week. Although, I have a solid offer from one unit, the current jet is where I'm comfortable and staying put would offer the least amount of stress if I were ever blessed with an offer from JB or SWA.

On the other hand, the AMC unit took a chance on me when they didn't have to as they still have a large stack of applicants. It's a great unit in an awesome town, and the plane ain't bad either....coupled with an easy drive to Athens! I know I'm blessed. Chances that I'll actually be in the U.S. next fall to watch my beloved DAWGS: Magic 8 Ball says "Outlook Not So Good" TiVo or Replay TV are high on my shopping list.

JB and SWA are both great companies comprised of great hard working friendly people who care about their co-workers, their customers, and the companies themselves. My best advice: if you haven't already done so, pray about it. I'll include you in mine.

Yahtz

 

[SpeedBird]

I got a Tivo for Christmas and its the best gadget I've had in a long while. I don't know why I waited so long to get one. They are worth every penny.

Sorry for the thread drift folks.


















i got a TIVO

 

[jll]

320 vs 737

For those that think the Bus is unsafe,

http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/

It is ranked number 6 of 20 airplanes. The 737 is 4th.

My $.02, I have a type in the 737 and now fly the 320. In an emergency situation, hands down, the Bus will take better care of you. Very easy to hand fly single engine. Most airplanes will kill you if you let them, most have. Understanding that basic principle will make you a better aviator regardless of the air frame.

 

[Muddauber]

I just don't like the design philosophy used by Airbus; but what really gripes my a$$ is that while thousands of US Boeing workers are on the street, some airlines are offering full employment to the French with Airbus purchases. You remember the French right- the country that is currently so staunchly our ally against Iraq. At least they are consistent, the French wouldn't let our F-111's overfly their country on the way from Upper Heyford to bomb Libya either.

 

[Slug]

French Resistance

I'm just figuring that the French are thinking that if a war does break out they might be overrun (again) by Iraq this time.

Subsequently they are sueing (sp?) for a peaceful solution.

 

[Race Pilot]

I just don't like the design philosophy used by Airbus; but what really gripes my a$$ is that while thousands of US Boeing workers are on the street, some airlines are offering full employment to the French with Airbus purchases. You remember the French right- the country that is currently so staunchly our ally against Iraq. At least they are consistent, the French wouldn't let our F-111's overfly their country on the way from Upper Heyford to bomb Libya either.

I knew someone would finally bring that subject up and I'm glad you did. First let me say that I have never owned a foreign car and probably never will. Thank goodness that good ole American car makers have good full size trucks and of course the love of my life, the Corvette Z06. I wonder how many folks out there that are dead set against Airbus because they are not a US company drive cars that are built by a foreign manufacturer? I know, there are many foreign cars built now in the US but they still have large support staffs that are wholly outside the US and many workers who are brought in from overseas as well.

Now about the bus, I am not an expert on the percentages but I understand that there is a great deal of the parts on those airplanes that are made in the US and then sent to France for installation on the airplane. Granted, the hull is made over there but a lot of the guts come from the good ole USA.

 

[canyonblue]

FOR SALE:

French Army Rifle

(Dropped only two times)

 

[hopeful]

race pilot-

what happened at ATA, wash out?

 

[kwijybo]

Just business baby...

If you don't like the Airbus design philosophy of the Airbus, that is fine, but if it is because of the makers are French, or, not American, is pretty funny. Why drive a BMW, Saab or Toyota when you can drive around in a Ford Escort, Geo etc. After flying the bus, I think a yoke is an anachronism.

Maybe Boeing needs a kick in the A to shake things up a bit. I would be stuck with a K car or some other piece of cr#p that rolled out of Detroit (is that French?) if I blindly bought American. If anything, the Germans, Japanese et al make it so Detroit has to continually improve. Its not Patriotism, it is business, plain and simple. A 'perceived' better product per dollar spent. With the deal Airbus offered JetBlue, what were they supposed to say- no?

As for history, I am far from a defender of the French, but I think they saved our bacon from the British back in the day of the revolution, so they weren't all bad. As for F-111's and overflight stuff, nobody has ever explained why the AF was required in the first place? With a carrier or two floating around the "Line of Death" for months, I know the Nav was more than capable of raining steel without the help of their AF brothers from far away England. The only reason I ever heard was there was a PR motive involved for the them to be there.

As for the companies, they both have big pluses and some minuses, but in the end, they are just about even, and MANY dudes, would stab you in the back to have a chance at one of them. You are lucky- it must be all that clean living.

To prove I am equal opportunity-
Somewhere God is smiling- I fly a French airplane, I land at an airport named Kennedy, and I have to travel to New York to start my trips. The trifecta of things I have tried to avoid my entire life.

Oh Yeah-
Why are the trees so tall along the Champs d' Elysee?

Shade for the German army.

 

[fredflyer]

I guess some guys thinks fly-by-wire is not for "real" pilots. They only fly conventional airplanes like the T-37, 737, G-IV F-16,.......... oh wait .........

 

[Muddauber]

Re: Just business baby...

If you don't like the Airbus design philosophy of the Airbus, that is fine, but if it is because of the makers are French, or, not American, is pretty funny. Why drive a BMW, Saab or Toyota when you can drive around in a Ford Escort, Geo etc...

I drive a Dodge truck.

As for history, I am far from a defender of the French, but I think they saved our bacon from the British back in the day of the revolution, so they weren't all bad. As for F-111's and overflight stuff, nobody has ever explained why the AF was required in the first place? With a carrier or two floating around the "Line of Death" for months, I know the Nav was more than capable of raining steel without the help of their AF brothers from far away England. The only reason I ever heard was there was a PR motive involved for the them to be there.

Frank Kelso used a whole lot of A-6's in Operation El Dorado Canyon. The Navy had about 30 airplanes in the operation, the Air Force over 50. It was a target rich environment for everybody.

To prove I am equal opportunity-
Somewhere God is smiling- I fly a French airplane, I land at an airport named Kennedy, and I have to travel to New York to start my trips. The trifecta of things I have tried to avoid my entire life.

Oh Yeah-
Why are the trees so tall along the Champs d' Elysee?

Shade for the German army.

Funny.

Muddy

 

[FL510GV]

This has been an interesting read on the SWA vs JetBlue decision...

I am dissappointed that a former AF pilot would make a statement like "Ron Brown's demographically selected unqualified crew." Did you know those guys? I did and they were neither. If you have been an AF pilot at any time in the time since the accident, you have been briefed on the accident and probably even read the report. Yes, the pilots were at fault, but so was the system and to a lesser degree the approach design itself. The AF is still paying the consequences for that tragedy.